Whos' attacking the network?

Criminals? Why would they, they'ed lose an avenue to try to launder money?

Script Kiddies? If they could attack the network, wouldn't they be more motived to use the coins generated for value than to destroy the network? I'd assume that that would be the case at least.

So you're not protecting it from typical miscreants. Now, who else would attack it? Oh, that's right. A government. And if you think that all of ASICMINERS hardware combined with all of Avalons hardware and all Butterfly Labs' shitpped hardware provides any protection at all against a government, well, sorry. If we've got $15 million invested in ASICs, the gov't can just as easily do the same times 10 and take it down no matter how much you mining power we deploy.

Whos left to attack?

As noble as "protecting the network" sounds, no ones adding hashing power or priming power to any of the networks in order to protect it. They're doing it for profit, plain and simple. Otherwise the butterfly labs threads wouldn't be nearly as distraught as they are. People aren't spending $30,000 to protect it, nor are they paying $2k to get their hands on a $279 device from ebay in order to protect the network.

So, the OP's point stands. All any leapfrogging will do is cost a lot of people a lot of money in order to keep up, where they'll all end up in the same exact place at the end of the day.

15,000 of the 940,000 unallocated coins from the premine given out. Good job! And the pool is down to 8 MH/s? What's the total network hashrate at this point?

I was going to laugh at your first suggestion, but then I went to the Kansas division of corporation webpage and and found no listing for Butterfly Labs or Butterflylabs. Or course, they could have formed their corporation anywhere (Delaware and Nevada are popular locales) and I'm not going to search 50 states just because. But they should have registered themselves as a Foreign Corporation doing business in Kansas.  My own bet is that they are a legitimate company, just registered elsewhere and forgot to file as a foreign corporation, but who knows?

https://www.kansas.gov/bess/flow/main?execution=e2s3

I'd speculate that they're paying taxes based on the dollar value of their sales. There isn't any reason for them to hold Bitcoins, unless they want to accrue huge accounting expenses due to nearly all CPA's not having a clue about Bitcoins. But who knows? I'm a little surprised that they're not registered to do business in Kansas. Though I won't go as far as to call them a scam, since I already received my jalapeno (and sold it at a handsome profit on eBay). When they get to the end of their backlog, and assumedly announce higher hash rated chips, I'll be happy to order again. And since no one else will, the queue won't be nearly as long, hopefully.

Read page 4 of this thread and see his description of the launch date for this coin. Again, starts at next monday, then sunday and assurance that there'll be plenty of notice, and then "surprise! it launched today instead!". Sorry, that seals my opinion right there.

I'd say it he gave away his 960k in a publicly verifiable manner, but he could be sitting at home right now generating 960 new addresses to give 1,000 coins each to.

Plenty of other choices out there. This one looked interesting but he blew it. It's almost funny, like, how in the world can your own coin get ruined before the launch date you set for it? Takes special skill, there....

What???

The currency on the invoice is dollars. You chose to pay in bitcoin, so they informed you how much it would cost in Bitcoin, because they will then likely convert those BTC to dollars. Their a US company selling product denominated in US Dollars. Someone buying their stuff in Euro would also have seen their money get converted to dollars - should they demand a refund months later, they would only be able to expect to receive dollars back, which may or may not convert back to the same amount of Euros.

Next, what are you talking about exchanging BTC into dollars? They sold you something in USD. You paid in BTC. They converted the BTC to USD. If they're not allowed to convert BTC to USD, how can they order parts, pay overhead, pay taxes or anything else? Regardless, FinCEN is QUITE clear that a company selling an actual product for BTC is not a currency exchanger.

This is something that goes both ways. Hind sight is 20/20 and everyone has to stop acting as if they were so much wiser than they actually were. If you knew that BTC would be worth what it is now, then shame on you for selling them back in June. What about that guy who paid 10,000 BTC for a pizza? Or are you saying that if BTC had instead fallen to 60 cents and Butterfly Labs cancelled all outstnding orders and returned to each customer the exact number of Bitcoins they had sent in, that you'd be 100% OK with it? Of course you wouldn't.

Lastly. Your little icon with the ant crawling. Everytime I see it on my screen, my first instinct is to wipe the bug off my screen. Would you mind changing that, maybe?

I'm fine with a premine if there's a plan for it. The promoter suggested 60,000 cdc worth of bounties for things that would indeed be beneficial. But to then premine a million coins for unspecified other things to be done to promote the coin? I'm not buying it. They couldn't even launch their coin correctly (by correctly, I mean, how they told the community it would launch), why should any of us think they'll be any more responsible with the other 940,000 coins that they premined that aren't allocated for bounties?

It's their coin, they can do what they want. But I won't participate and I'll hope that others don't either. If you're disenchanted by Bitcoin, there's plenty of other choices out there, and likely plenty more on the way. Why anyone would waste a single CPU/GPU cycle on this is beyond me.

To me, it's more than just about the pre-mine. The size of it was also dropped on us a the last minute. First and foremost it's at the sheer ineptitude displayed in informing the community about when the coin would officially launch - i.e., yesterday, the coin was to launch next monday, then moved to Sunday. OK, thats understandable, and still gives everyone time to adjust. But one day later, all of a sudden it's "oh, btw the coin is launched! why aren't you mining it already?". Sorry. D**k move.

I had my bags packed and planned for the train on Sunday. I'm not going to run and chase it when there are so many other trains to ride along on. I'd rather be on a train where the conductors speak to each other rather than act completely arbitrarily.

You said your pool was up to 60 MH.

Why is only reporting 12 MH and 15 miners now? Apparently, I could 51% your network at this point?

http://cloudcoin.miningpool.co/stats

Look at Primecoins launch and compare to your own.

If you want this coin to work, you're going to have to relaunch it. Why would I start mining when the blockchain will get reset. Or it doesn't get reset and it won't go anywhere anyways.

We were all ready to mine on Sunday. Your team screwed that up, not any of us.

Add to that a million coin premine that came out of nowhere.

You asked for a second chance and said you're still serious about this coin. Relaunch it when you said you would, and do so with a less insulting pre-mine. I could understand a few thousand to cover the goals you outlined. But a million? 1% of all the coins that will ever be produced? We might as well call you Ripple. This is sheer greed. And with a super high starting difficulty to prevent "instamining" no less? There wouldn't have been an instamine on Sunday, you had given everyone ample notice of the launch.

So no, I won't mine until and unless you fix this. And I hope everyone else follows suit.

You only have a few complaining because a lot of people have not clue that you even launched the coin yet.

You have 28+ mh.

One GPU can get, say, 800 kh on average. So, you've got 35 people mining away. Or, really, maybe three people with a few decent rigs.

That's a successful launch that can't be undone? That's worth it to you?  You probably had quite a few more people ready to participate but waiting for the day that you said you'd launch it.

How much money did you spend on this? It's all going up in smoke.

This is silly.

Butterfly Labs sold their products in dollar denominated form. Whether a purchaser decided to pay for it in BTC at the then current exchange rate or with dollars was their own choice, not Butterfly Labs'. Recall that in June 2012, BTC was $6ish. Recall that in June 2011 it was $18, $20, even $30 at times. So you're talking about a currency, that, at the time of purchase, had lost anywhere from 2/3 to 4/5 of its value since the preceeding year.

But, apparently Butterfly Labs knew something that no one else knew, so they took in orders at $6/BTC and sat on them because they knew that BTC would turn around and hit $240 9 months later? And the people that paid their bitcoins over when they were $6/USD also knew that bitcoin would reverse course and hit that price level 9 months later but paid with Bitcoin instead of cash because they were confident that they'd get their product in 2 weeks so they could mine back all the coins they spent in time for that meteoric rise? And then they would have sold those coins at the top of the market and jumped back in at $90? Why wouldnt' they have jumped back in at $70?

This is an awful lot of speculation. It's a lot of looking in the rear view mirror. Nobody but nobody knew where BTC would be priced later on. And every single person, had they believed in their heart of hearts that BTC would take off, every one of them could have made their purchase in dollars rather than BTC.

It's water under the bridge.

Please educate me.

How can the network for a coin be attacked when its not even launched yet?

How, economically speaking (since you say it's a matter of economics), can one put trust in a development team that is clearly at odds with itself?

It sounds as though you said "lets launch Monday" the community said "c'mon do it Sunday, we all work M-F", you said "sure!" and then your partner or partners turn around and said "we don't care, we just launched it 20 minutes ago". Please explain if that's wrong, and how "knowing how markets work" is at all relevant? Unless by how markets work means rampant free market, doing anything for advantage to the point that in order to avoid instamining, you instead launch 5 days ahead of schedule, in the middle of the day no less? I wouldn't have even noticed if I wasn't taking a lunch break.

None of this has to do with markets or economics. At best its poor communication. At worst its a team that can't trust each other. Again, if you can't trust one another, why should we trust you?

Unless you care to clarify in greater detail about what changed from yesterday to today, please don't invoke "markets" or "economics" unless you care to connect the dots for dummies like me who fail to see how those two words are at all related to what you just did.

How could the network have come under attack if it wasn't launched yet? Or was a member of the team threatening to launch it on their own if you didnt agree? Sounds like a nice, cohesive team where the spokesperson can say one thing and have the rest of the team act in the contrary. Really, even if you're the most honest person in rthe world, that doesn't matter if the rest of your team can't be trusted at all.

I don't get it. Earlier you said you expended a lot of time, effort and money into developing this coin.  Clearly not or you'd have fought tooth and nail to avoid such a fiasco. Seems like such a miner thing, but it's enough to derail my interest. I only hope others agree. This can't be a new normal.

I'm sure you're getting this a lot, but you blew it dude. Your coin seemed interesting even, so that makes it even more of a shame.

lets see:

7/15
Yes, I know. But I wil make sure to please the most people with the release and I will "warn everybody in time". So everybody can be prepared to start mining Cloudcoin.

7/23
expected release is Monday 2:00 PM New York time. However this also depends on the miner's requests, and the development finalization. But it should be around that time, and don't be afraid I will announce the official release time in time.


7/23
Expected launch is moved from Monday to this Sunday at 12 pm New York time. But I will post another thread before that so everybody will know about tge release.

Today:
Surprise! I launched it today. With a million coin premine, no less!

So, for all of us who had set reminders to get started on this on Sunday and support your coin, well, that went out the window. And to top if off, you keep 1% of all the coins that will ever be circulated? Sorry, not gonna do it. Again, it looked like you were semi-serious about your efforts. If your coin makes it to an exchange, you've got enough coin premined to make it look like there's actual interest and volume going on.  I certainly hope it doesn't. And I'm generally a fan of alt.coins.

Oh well... bye.

Can a coin start out as being mined initially and then transition to its own block chain/proof of work after a number of blocks have been created?

Sorry, no I'm not luke-jr. I'm lucasjkr. Back in early 90's I could have my screen name on many sites just be "lucas". But lots of other Lucas' started using the internet. So then I had to be LucasK (but apparently there are other people named Lucas with that last initial as well) then LucasJK (but again, lots of people with those initials). But "LucasJKr is rare (if i try to sign up on a site and the user name is taken, it's usually because I already registered there before). So, no relation to luke-jr and I certainly didn't choose my screen name to cause confusion.

I still don't see any irreparable harm that they caused. Sure, they caused a sting and some disappointment, but such is life. The community itself seems to be operating just fine, Asic miner and Avalon are doing their things, and lots of rumors of future devices on the horizon (KNC Miner, for instance). Hardly irreparably harm.

I also don't get the constant complaint of the bitcoin denominated returns. People who paid in BTC rather than dollars in mid 2012 complaining that their 2013 investment won't return as many bitcoins. Nevermind that Bitcoin is worth 10x more today as it was then, and never mind that nobody but nobody knew what the future held.

Sure, bitcoin was at $6 in June and higher ever since. that was hardly pre-ordained - it could have just as easily did what it did from June 2011 to June 2012 (ie, lost another 80% of its value). And if anyone thinks they really did "know", why pay in BTC at all? Why not just have used dollars?

Curious. What is the irreparable damage?

That's silly. Why would you think you'd be rewarded (given a higher spot in the order queue) for causing them a headache? Especially these boards being the way they are (18,000 sign ups on digital ocean for primecoin miners after a single post with a referral link), if you succeeded and posted about your e pertinence, the next thing you know everyone would open disputes hoping to get bumped up as well. In which case everyone would be right back where they started.

If I was them, especially given their "fire your customers manta", I'd say "sorry, when you filed your dispute, that cancelled your order. If you cancel the dispute, well treat it as a new order"

What the real shame is is that BFLis the only ASIC provider that has an offering suitable for more casual miners. usb Block eruptors? Don't expect to ever recoup your costs of $100 for 300MH. All the others? Thousands of dollars. There's zero competition in the low-end space (5 Gh for $279..,, who's much is a 12 Gh Avalon blade?).

Of course it doesn't really matter anymore. All the ASIC providers are doing is insuring that nobody is profitable but them.  This arms race of gigahashes hasn't really accomplished anything else. Certainly not any more network security, as the network is just as vulnerable to a dedicated attacker (say, a government) willing to spend a couple million dollars as it was before Asics. But that's a whole other story. End of the day is that BFL has zero competition despite worthy adversaries, because all the others have decided on much higher price points for their goods. Now, if friedcat released something that was comparable in price and performance to a jalapeño and customers had other routes, I'd doubt you'd see any mention of "firing our customers"

I will agree though that BFL should look up the regulations and be more understanding of their customers situations than they are presently; you can't list terms and conditions that run counter to those regulations and say that your terms trump what the law says, no more than you can loan money at a usurious rate and say that's legal because the customer agreed to the terms. Nor can you deny refunds on products that haven't shipped yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan personally because despite the wait, they made good (for me). Friedcat & co have basically made GPU mining unprofitable singlehandedly and to date, BFL is the only company that's succeeded even partially at providing widespread cost/efficient miners to the rest of us (I'm ignoring USB Blocj Eruptors because they're priced at levels where they'll never break even, and Avalon because their shipments are so few and so expensive that theyre out of reacv for non-professional miners.

I think BFL is the only company that Trully is trying to make money selling mining pans and pick axes. But because of that position, they're flouting the rules and laws simply because their customers have no other choice. I hope they wake up to this Before shit hits the fan, because then the whole mining community suffers.

Received mine, mined enough BTC that I broke even in terms of dollar outlay and sold it on eBay. Shipping my Jalapeno today, actually. And I'll end up ordering another one from them. eBay prices were just too high to ignore, I was more than happy to jump back to the end of the line for what I got. Sorry, no pics, but you can see plenty of other ones on there as well.

Why do people throw out the idea of the government attempting to buy up every bitcoin? It's insane. If the government did want to kill Bitcoin, do you think they would spend a billion dollars to do that? Or do you think they'ed spend $10 or $20 million, and have their own ASIC's deployed in order to over run the network? Or would they just locate each of the big mining pools, DOS them and/or block their traffic and leave Bitcoins difficulty so impossibly high that the rest of the network couldn't confirm blocks in any amount of reasonable time?

Buying out bitcoin would only cause people to rush and hop into the next coin, awating an even bigger buyout. Done properly, a decent attack MIGHT have the effect of making most participants wary of even trying to do this again.

Think about it.