i agree, guys. most of your points make sense and quite reasonable. there's no point to argue with the folks saying Bitcoin (at least at the moment) is money
and money is not free.
but we, as a human being, tend to look in the future? right?
so, i believe ( "you may say i a dreamer, but i'm not the only one" ) that Bitcoin was not created just for the benefit of a few, or a particular group of people, or a particular country, or even a particular "billion", but for the benefit of the humanity as a whole.
do we really want to make it "my precious!"? do we really want to keep our individual freedom, censorship resistance and decentralization, granted us by Bitcoin, just for the benefit of our own, our families and friends and do not give a shit about rest of the world?
it kind of resemble situation with the covid. some countries do vaccinate their folks and do not give a shit about the rest of the world, but we are all linked one way or another.
well, let's look into the future:
* how we can make Bitcoin work for the benefit of all and not the few?
and the main question
* do we really want IT to do so?

we talked a lot in this thread about equal distribution/redistribution of bitcoin among people, its cons and pros. but if we look at bitcoin in general, it becomes quite obvious that bitcoin itself is kind of a tool of redistribution of wealth among people. there are a lot people who change their financial/social status thanks to bitcoin in particular and crypto in general.
can bitcoin become a universal mechanism of just and fair redistribution of wealth among Earth's population?
what are your thoughts about this?
* is it possible?
* is modern society ready for it?
* will it be accepted by people?
* will it provoke conflicts/wars?
* what qualities bitcoin have to acquire to become a mechanism of just redistribution of wealth? 

do you think our world is ready for an ideal cryptocurrency? the one to solve most of the problems of human society?
what is for you "ideal crypto"?

i also was thinking about it. there is a coin (Primecoin / XPM) that "computed chains of prime numbers (Cunningham and bi-twin chains), the results of which were published on its blockchain's public ledger, available for use by scientists, mathematicians, and anyone else" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primecoin).
so instead of just burning energy to solve useless equations the network can be solving something that can have practical appliances (as an option, scientists and mathematicians can have possibilities to send a request/proposal to the network for computing task).


i agree and disagree with you. from one hand society has to stimulate its members to be the best one of themselves. fighting laziness and greed, stimulating creativity, honesty, trust and mutual help. but from other hand there is part of the society that can't support themselves due to physical or mental problems/illnesses. i'm not talking here about chronic alcoholics and drug addicts (although in most cases they also not to be blamed of who they become, but let's leave it for now). i'm talking about disable (physically/mentally) people who can't work even if they want to. so to support them someone have to work for two or even three people. and i think there are plenty of such people in the world. this what make us human and not animals (nazi as spartans prefer to eliminate the weak one for the benefit of the race). but we not living in the stone age where each and every one of us has to fight for survival. one farmer can easily support hundreds if not thousands of people. so, in modern society there is no need for such extreme measures.
but surplus of food lead to all kind of parasitic activities and stimulates the flourish of laziness. so there is vicious circle, salvation of one problem creates another one.
can the laziness be cured? how to make people want to benefit to the society without "forcing them to work at gunpoint". any ideas anyone?

it definitely should not be "no matter what". history shows that expropriation and equal redistribution is (as i mentioned before) a dead end. good example is soviet union. the evolution of human society chewed it up. as you said there were "no incentive to work", there were no point to do your job better if you get practically the same as your less enthusiastic colleague. the exemptions were "stahanovets" (people who do several day norms of production for one worker in one day). it is interesting that the motivation for this hard work was not of economical nature, but rather ideological. it was the first generation of people of a new country. they saw the life before the equality, the era of unjust capitalism of russian empire. but second generation didn't value it as much as they do not have anything to compare to. finally, the third generation was the one to collapse it and goes back to capitalism (we are not talking here about multitude of various factors that leads to collapse of ussr, but more in general, from people's point of view).


"equally distributing all the wealth among all people" (as it was kind of stated in the original post) is not the goal itself and it  never was. moreover it is not immutable presupposition. it is kind of one of the ways/mechanism (most likely utopian) to achieve harmony in society. so, let's reverse the logic: it is desired to have harmony in the society. how we can achieve it?
* definitely not through the unjust distribution of the resources through the capitalistic mechanism that leads to segregation and a widening abyss between rich and poor;
* definitely not through the unjust expropriation of wealth and equal redistribution;
so (being realistic) it has to be something in the middle, something that make the middle class dominating in the society. if the middle class makes even 80 percent of the whole world population it can be said there is peace and harmony on Earth. it is inevitable to have poor and rich (as we discussed in this topic before: most lazy people stay lazy and therefore poor no matter what motivation society would provide to them to be valued member of the society; same with rich: some people just have it in their blood. they just can't stay still. they are like bicycles, if they stop, they fall). but as long as 80 % (presumably) of world population  more or less equally possessed 80% of wealth and resources (middle class society), the world should be ok.

kind of making accessible and possible for those who want to be part of the middle class society but can't due to various reasons get there (unequal access to education, job market, resources, medical care, governing bodies) have a chance.

it's well known that whatever you do with force you got a double negative effect. so forcing is definitely is not an option.

what if every user of the coin become a miner, but a miner who not trying to generating a new block and get a reward, but to process the transactions? since there will be no mining rewards there will not be miners just to mine for rewards. all they need to stay online, so their device processes the transactions. since there will be a large number of users there will be a lot of device to process transactions. calculating power will be equally dividend between the connected devices. to add economic stimulus, connected devices can get a reward for staying online and processing transactions. it not necessary to be coins. it can be reputation, trust score, or any other thing that demonstrate your contribution to the network.

have no answer to that. that why i asked what kind of self-defence mechanism can be implemented to the system to be immunable to abuse of power and all other type of attacks. may be making the system not attractable for such type of attacks can solve the problem. parallel systems, attack at the main net trigger the backup or something like this (just fantasising)

of course, i don't know) this is what discussion on the forum is about, isn't it? talking, sharing ideas, inventing new one.
let's fantasise. what if the initial spread of the coin to be in some kind of reward for some good things person do, not necessary for the network itself. just in general: it can be reputation, trust score or some like this. as the coin slowly be spreading out there can be other options to distribute it: some can be giving for free to the poor one (the one that are poor not because of the laziness and bad habits, but because of the harsh of the society: not be able to work, even they want to and can). some can be sold (but the money without any exceptions goes straight for support of the network development, charity, disable people who can't work and other stuff that helps to make Earth a better place.)

golden words. humanity shows us that it tends to making the same mistakes. mostly it probably because of our nature. some say that wars, greed and laziness in our dna and the only way to cure it is to eliminate humanity. maybe it is so. but maybe there is some way (like that quote from Avengers about only one out of three billion of possible scenarios in which they won) to cure it without elimination. maybe we just don’t discover it yet. like with black holes. 50 years ago they were a myth. but today it is scientifically proven fact (warning: not preaching, just sharing a thought)

remember, we derailed to sci-fi here and not so distant future. so technologies will be penetrate into all layer of societies. mobile phones and internet in 20-30 years most likely won't be an issue
what if processing of transactions will be equally distributed between all connected phones/laptops of those who use the coin. 8 billion people minus children under 8 year who do not need access to money and elderly. let's take away 3 billion. 5 billion connected devices.
centralized system inevitably will lead to inequality and corruption. so, it has to be decentralized. history showed that even the brightest and most noble minds tend to corruption as time goes by.

so what self-defence system need in order to be immunable to corruption and abuse of power, but stayed decentralized?

my bad 

limited supply, convenient and easy to use, trustful and transparent. if not. what it needs to preserve value?

let's fantasise) why lazy the lazy one. because they can be lazy and stay alive. if you do not have income to buy food you have to move your ass in order to put food in your mouse otherwise you starve to death. of course, it a bit extreme, but i hope you get the point.  (we talking about just pure lazy one, who can and able to generate some income)

it was Earth when i last check)

so, it has to be irreversible

it can be slowly spreading out among population. the way to do it? if it will be on the sale basis, who get the money? - it means another gready project to get rich quickly. if you have to work for it, it means only limited number of people get it.  if it go just for free people won't value it. so it has to be some honest way so it will be equally distributed and won't be a source of enrichment of a few but a benefit for all.

I edited original post based on the reply in this topic.


I don't know where you get all these ideas, may be it was my fault as i failed to represent it properly or may be you see some thing between the lines that are not there. who knows)


that's good, that's what make us different and unique


yeah, it's normal. but it seems you disagree not only with me but with others posters. and it's ok. you have your own point of view. but it can be expressed in more friendly manner. not arrogant one, with explicate demonstrative superiority. as i said before, we are all friends here, although you disagreed with it. well, you have right to do that

good! different opinions lead to discussion and not to passive nodding in agreement. "truth is born in disputes"

i'm a bit confused, in one sentence you said that "there is no us and there is no them" and "makes you one of them not of us".
and also. no offence, but to me your posts (at least in this topic) seems a bit cooky and hostile in comparison to other posters. i don't know who you are in real life, maybe you a cool, nice guy, but here is just criticism, criticism, criticism...

the point is to make such a cryptocurrency (let's go wild here in si-fi universe) that people would want and can afford. something that will be:
* easy/convenient to use, cheap (low/no fees) and fast (processing time);
* transparent, secure, decentralized;
* capable of self-defence (possess a mechanism against manipulation and abuse of the system) and governed by the users/holders (different level of voting and various electoral, autonomous bodies within the system that counterbalance and equilibrate each other to avoid corruption and abuse of power);
* suppressing/making unnecessary an urge for greed and unreasonable enrichment (fee if you hold more than you need and speculate);
* stimulating trust, help and support for those who are in temporal difficulties (unforeseen circumstances, illness, etc) but not the LAZY one;
* discouraging laziness and make no room for freeloaders;
* ...

will unlimited supply be a cause of inflation/decrease in value and other issues of current monetary systems?
will reversible transactions complicate the system, make it less secure and stable?

if i isulted you in some way, sorry about it mate. that was't my intention. just reflective response to the hi pitch tone in disscussion. i respect every point of view as long as it expressed in the equal, non offensive manner.


NICE! this what i'm talking about.

true) but to get there we need a bridge. we can't just wake up one day with robots around us, unlimited energy, food suplies and living space. crypto can be the bridge.
and why you keep saying "free bitcoins" ?)  i intentinally wrote few times that i'm not talking about free money. free money leads to greed and lazines. two of the worst burden of human nature. by distribution i mean the widening circle of bitcoin users to the whole Earth population, but defenetly not on the base of foreceble expropriation and equal redistribution. this is way to nowhere.
it has to be some other way: just, transparent, beneficial for everybody, stimulating trust and honesty, fighting greed, corruption and laziness.

so, you r the hostile one?
well, when it comes to non-bitcoiners even the worst enemies become friends 

smells a bit like censorship) what about freedom of speech? setting conversation boundaries no way to a healthy talk.
and to declare "most bitcoiners are middle class" is a bit risky. it's emply either lack of information or over-awareness.
but i understand your poit as of others.
nevertheless we need to look in the future and dream about and immagine even the most impossible things(as Jules Verne onece did). only this way we can make Earth a better place

we are talking here hypothetically.
first exchanges were the bridge to introduce bitcoin - the marketplace of conversion fiat to crypto, the way to come on board for non miners. without them it stayed underground and probably won't survive. but now they become a burden > speculative, evil platforms for manipulation, exploitation and greedy enrichment. for ordinary people to carry on transaction with each other they have no need (unless you want to convert btc to fiat, but why would you do that if you can buy and sell everything with btc / remember we talking hypothetically and about near future /). so in case the fee for holding luge sum of BTC will be implied most of the exchanges will extinct.

exactly, the main limiter for btc to become a mean of payment instead of mean of investment is speed and fee, but as you said yourself lightning network will cure it at some point. i can't see why redistributing bitcoin making it worthless. instead, more people will start using it if it will become more accessible. for now with this spike of institutional buying bitcoin moving further and further away from a common homosapien. and nobody "get money from those actually work for that money - in a way or another - and give it to those who didn't". this will not be a steal but a sale. the point is that every person need money to live a happy/ healthy life. but excess and extravagance leads to all kind of illnesses, physical and mental. same goes with btc, keep what you realy need, rest is for sale.

nice one! loud and clear.
just one questions poped up in mind reading your reply
> what happend to bitcoin when the last block is mined? how the network will be supported and transactions carried on if miners won't recive any reward anymore?

now back to business.
i wasn't talking about free money/airdrop. i was talking more about redistibuting by "voluntarily forcing" of big holders. those holding huge amounts will not benefit from it or even lose value if they hold huge amounts and not spending/selling it. how it can be possible done i can't even imagin in my wildest imagination. but it will make bitcoin the mean of payment and not of the mean of investment. this most likely will bring the price significantly down but will give bitcoinless chaps opportunities to acquire bitcoins and use them for buying/selling goods and services. and so on > redestribution and as a result equality more or less: 0.00178350 btc / 178350 sat. () per person in the 9,7 bln people world.
this amount can be a golden standart - an average living wage for a common citizen of the world

first of all you sound a bit haughty and arrogant, we are all friends here. no need to be rude  secondly,  who said anything about "give for free the hard-earned money"? equal distribution does not mean expropriate and redistribute. it means redestribute on market base principals. reflow from the oceans to the local seas, ponds, puddles and cups. how to do it? i don't know. is it possible? i don't know. will it make the world a better place? i don't know. will it kill bitcoin or immortalize forever? i don't know.
the point is that people's money has to be people's money/

some stat:
  * "the world population was estimated to have reached 7,800,000,000 people as of March 2020" (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=number+of+people+on+the+planet)
  * bitcoin current supply: 18,660,000;
    minus 3,700,000 ( "Around 3.7 million bitcoin, currently worth around $140 billion, appears to be permanently lost or stranded in disused digital wallets, US-based paper The New York Times reported Tuesday." / https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=how+many+bitcoins+lost+forewer)
    total: 14,960,000

in case of equal distribution as of may 2021 (no worries, it won't happen): 14,960,000 / 7,800,000,000 = 0.0019179 btc per person / 191790 sat per person
with the current average price of $55,000 per BTC : 0.00221794*55000 = 105.48 $ per person;

now let's dream a little bit.

some more stat:
 * "The world's population is projected to reach 8.5 billion by 2030, 9.7 billion by 2050" (https://www.google.com/search?q=number+of+people+by+2030);

year 2050:

some if's and assumptions:
 *99.9% of population has access to electricity and internet;
 * robots almost ready to do all the dirtiest and manual work for humans;
 *humans do mostly intellectual work, craft, art, etc.; they still can do manual and dirty work though, but only if they want to;
 *energy is clean, unlimited and practically free;
 *bitcoin has matured and evolved, got strength and new qualities:
   - become easy and convenient to use, cheap (low/no fees) and fast (processing time);
   - stayed decentralized;
   - become capable of self-defence (developed a mechanism against manipulation and abuse of the system);
    - governed by users/holders (has different levels of voting systems and various electoral, autonomous bodies within the system that counterbalance and equilibrate each other to avoid corruption and abuse of power);
    - has a mechanism of suppression of unnecessary urge for greed and unreasonable enrichment (various fee in case one holding more than need or speculate);
    - stimulate trust, help and support for those who are in temporal difficulties (unforeseen circumstances, illness, etc);
    - has a mechanism of discouraging laziness and make no room for freeloaders (want a bite - do your part);

some more if's:
 * bitcoin current supply: 20,900,000;
  minus 3,700,000 ;
  total: 17,200,000;
 * bitcoin slowly has been redistributed to all people on the planet: big holders willingly and voluntarily sell their surplus of bitcoins to bitcoinless folks (it is not profitable and respectful anymore to hold more than you need);
   
remember the year is 2050:

17,200,000 / 9,700,000,000 = 0.00177319 btc per person / 177319 sat per person;
with the price goes up to $1,000,000 per BTC : 0.00177319*1000000 = 1,773.19 $ (but who cares about fiat in 2050?)

177319 sat per person / a golden standard / - an average living wage for a common citizen of the world;

SO. all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution of bitcoin among all people on Earth, BUT it has NOT to be on the base of forceable expropriation and equal redistribution. the mechanism has to be just, transparent, beneficial for everybody, stimulating trust and honesty, fighting greed, corruption and laziness.

is it possible to calculate the amount of old school money needed to pump up into bitcoin to reach 1.000.000 per BTC. which factors are the key? and is it possible to say how much money has already been pumped up into BTC? not relatively but absolutely ( IN minus OUT > ammount in the system at the moment)