bitcoin for everyone

[stompix]

first of all you sound a bit haughty and arrogant, we are all friends here.

Hahaha, wake up!
You should visit the reputation board to see how many are friends here.

who said anything about "give for free the hard-earned money"? equal distribution does not mean expropriate and redistribute. it means redestribute on market base principals.

So you plan a distribution without a redistribution, that is the part that might work, again not in this world but in your dreams yeah, definitely possible.!

the point is that people's money has to be people's money/

Yeah, so my money is also people's money since it's my family's money, our keys our coins not your business!

That aside I'm amazed by the tsunami of users that have finally found out a way to fight poverty, we redistribute all bitcoins so everyone would have some $, how much? Probably 0.000001 cents since at the first sign of a wealth redistribution being possible it means that BTC has stopped serving its main purpose, it will be a useless coin under the control of an entity, goodbye decentralization, goodbye being your own bank, goodbye value.
So everybody could have some BTC as it would be useless.

I don't get your idea about equal distribution.OK everyone will get the same amount of BTC,but what happens after that?Some people will lose their BTC due to scams(or forget their passwords and private keys),other people will waste their BTC,buying stuff they don't need or playing crypto gambling.Eventually the BTC will be concentrated in the hands of a few wealthy people.That's how capitalism works.

But, but this time it will work!
This is the time when redistribution and taking everything from the rich will definitely work and we will not all end dirt poor like all the times in history this stunt has been tried. This time!
Whenever there is talk about some money and some having more here comes somebody with the same idea, we should take some who that from that side and give it to that side and make sure the proportion stays right all the time and the object itself doesn't lose value and ignoring all basic economics they still keep pushing this! I don't know why in this case but I have a feeling in most it's not because they care so much about the poor people but it's rather pure envy and the ones that have more.

LE:
How did I miss this one:

> bitcoin supply: 21,000,000
>> minus 3,700,000 }
>>> total: 17,300,000

in case of equale distribution: 17,300,000 / 7,800,000,000 = 0.00221794 sat per person

There are only 18,700,000 coins in circulation at this moment so it's 15,000,000  not 17,300,000

[1715143008]

1715143008

[1715143008]

1715143008

[1715143008]

1715143008

[AKalinousky]

Maybe you are not aware, but the biggest holders are exchanges' cold wallets. And this means that if you keep money on an exchange you'll pay for that money from your own pocket.
Also, if this was not stated when people have deposited their money into their wallets, then it's basically stealing.

we are talking here hypothetically.
first exchanges were the bridge to introduce bitcoin - the marketplace of conversion fiat to crypto, the way to come on board for non miners. without them it stayed underground and probably won't survive. but now they become a burden > speculative, evil platforms for manipulation, exploitation and greedy enrichment. for ordinary people to carry on transaction with each other they have no need (unless you want to convert btc to fiat, but why would you do that if you can buy and sell everything with btc / remember we talking hypothetically and about near future /). so in case the fee for holding luge sum of BTC will be implied most of the exchanges will extinct.

Nope, it won't. You imagine the somebody who doesn't have money for food will buy a smartphone, connect to the internet, get 121$ and then pays 5-10$ in fees to spend it? And then use it for every day currency?
The barrier before using it as currency is its transaction speed and costs, which will be fixed by LN at some point.
If you'd redistribute Bitcoin, you'll make it worthless. Also, as discussed, if you'd do this, you'll get money from those actually work for that money - in a way or another - and give it to those who didn't. Even those who were using Bitcoin will run away from it. You'd make more problems than you'd fix.

exactly, the main limiter for btc to become a mean of payment instead of mean of investment is speed and fee, but as you said yourself lightning network will cure it at some point. i can't see why redistributing bitcoin making it worthless. instead, more people will start using it if it will become more accessible. for now with this spike of institutional buying bitcoin moving further and further away from a common homosapien. and nobody "get money from those actually work for that money - in a way or another - and give it to those who didn't". this will not be a steal but a sale. the point is that every person need money to live a happy/ healthy life. but excess and extravagance leads to all kind of illnesses, physical and mental. same goes with btc, keep what you realy need, rest is for sale.

[sheenshane]

I think distributing it equally is the right idea here and for that, it would disregard and insult the services, skills, and products that others build in order the earn their own stuff.

I think the best thing to do here to give everyone an even distribution that would help them startup their path but not all of the cryptocurrency evenly distributed.  In that way, people will have a chance to change or ruin their lives as it would depend on how they would spend their cryptocurrencies.

IMO, I don’t think everyone deserves Bitcoin to be in their possession.  Unless people would give proper advice and teach them how to handle it and that's the only way we have.

[NeuroticFish]

i can't see why redistributing bitcoin making it worthless.

If you expect people pay big bucks for something others get for free, you are mistaking. And not only that others get for free, others get that by "leaking" investors' wallets? Good luck with that.

instead, more people will start using it if it will become more accessible

No. Common people don't afford to pay 10$ and wait 1h for confirming, in order to buy 5$ worth of groceries.

for now with this spike of institutional buying bitcoin moving further and further away from a common homosapien.

This will end and they will sell in no time if your kind of logic would be applied. If they want to lose money they can do that already with USD.

and nobody "get money from those actually work for that money - in a way or another - and give it to those who didn't". this will not be a steal but a sale.

You started with the finite supply, but you seem to fail to understand it. If I worked for 100$, convert it to Bitcoin and you get 5$ worth of Bitcoin from me, I will call it stealing.

the point is that every person need money to live a happy/ healthy life. but excess and extravagance leads to all kind of illnesses, physical and mental. same goes with btc, keep what you realy need, rest is for sale.

Please stop this socialist bullshit if you want a civilized and reasonable talk. Richness doesn't necessarily mean extravagance, extravagance doesn't necessarily means drugs, and most bitcoiners are middle class, far from rich. So again, keep that for the party meetings.

[AKalinousky]

Hahaha, wake up!
You should visit the reputation board to see how many are friends here.

so, you r the hostile one?
well, when it comes to non-bitcoiners even the worst enemies become friends 

Please stop this socialist bullshit if you want a civilized and reasonable talk. Richness doesn't necessarily mean extravagance, extravagance doesn't necessarily means drugs, and most bitcoiners are middle class, far from rich. So again, keep that for the party meetings.

smells a bit like censorship) what about freedom of speech? setting conversation boundaries no way to a healthy talk.
and to declare "most bitcoiners are middle class" is a bit risky. it's emply either lack of information or over-awareness.
but i understand your poit as of others.
nevertheless we need to look in the future and dream about and immagine even the most impossible things(as Jules Verne onece did). only this way we can make Earth a better place

[Ucy]

Not really a good idea to to distribute a scarce currency in this manner. A fair distribution would need to be done in a way that benefits a community, and there is little to no bad side effects in the distribution.
Better to just get the coins to the most productive areas in the society and get people in need access the resultant products and services cheaply or free

[sapnu]

all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

Bitcoin is money. Money is something you receive for goods or services. Why would one give for free the hard-earned money? Just because that money is called Bitcoin?!

It is the old idea that in a communist world everything would be wonderful, when the pure reality is that if all the wealth of the world were confiscated and distributed equally, the next day there would be rich and poor again, because some would save and invest and others would spend it all immediately on whores and drugs (to give extreme examples).

The only way to ensure "equality" would be, the day after, to confiscate again those who save and invest to give it to those who have spent it on whores and drugs.

And we would all live happily ever after.

Exactly, each individual in the world has different ways on handling their money that's why even the money in the world will be distributed equally, the next day or the next few weeks there will be a difference between social status once again. There will be those people who would choose not to work to earn more or choose to work to assure the security of their future. There will be people who will put their greed first and take advantage of other people's stupidity and ignorance. The world is too vast and complex, no matter how hard we try to make everything appear equal, it's just too impossible.

[NeuroticFish]

smells a bit like censorship) what about freedom of speech? setting conversation boundaries no way to a healthy talk.

I can set boundaries of the discussion with me, especially when you try to insult my intelligence.
It's interesting that you try to preach about something that more often than not ends up with denying the freedom of speech and on the other hand you request it.
But no problem, preach whatever you want, let's see how welcomed will that be.

nevertheless we need to look in the future and dream about and immagine even the most impossible things(as Jules Verne onece did). only this way we can make Earth a better place

Sure, no problem, just keep in mind that while in books or movies goods and services can rise from nowhere or magic, in real world those have to be performed by somebody.
If we go on science fiction, the route is simple:
1. Make nuclear fusion work for virtually unlimited and free energy
2. Make robots smart and almost independent, avoiding Terminator/SkyNet scenario
3. Since the robots will do all the work, humans can live in peace, harmony, without famine and diseases and with sufficient money and goods for everybody.
See? Free bitcoins are not even needed.

[bryant.coleman]

This is epic:

I was told that back in primary school: you would be able to get any goods for free. I kept wondering that then why would anybody work at all and how who would produce those goods...
Then the shortages started and they stopped insulting our intelligence with that crap.

The school children doesn't need to be embarrassed about getting fooled by the freebie propaganda. Because in the most powerful country in the world, the voters were fooled with the same propaganda in 2020. In an ideal socialist paradise, the Communist Party would provide you everything - food, housing, healthcare, education.etc. The party will decide whether you should become a farmer or a factory worker. The party will decide whether you should marry someone or not. The problem occurs when the leadership of the party ends up in the hands of people like Lavrentiy Beria. The syphilis infested monster treated the ordinary citizens as his slaves and destroyed the lives of thousands of women. Thankfully the Soviets executed him after he tried to rape Stalin's daughter. In most of the socialist countries, you will find such people. Kim Jong Un is a perfect example. 

[AKalinousky]

I can set boundaries of the discussion with me, especially when you try to insult my intelligence.

if i isulted you in some way, sorry about it mate. that was't my intention. just reflective response to the hi pitch tone in disscussion. i respect every point of view as long as it expressed in the equal, non offensive manner.

If we go on science fiction, the route is simple:
1. Make nuclear fusion work for virtually unlimited and free energy
2. Make robots smart and almost independent, avoiding Terminator/SkyNet scenario
3. Since the robots will do all the work, humans can live in peace, harmony, without famine and diseases and with sufficient money and goods for everybody.

NICE! this what i'm talking about.

Since the robots will do all the work, humans can live in peace, harmony, without famine and diseases and with sufficient money and goods for everybody.
See? Free bitcoins are not even needed.

true) but to get there we need a bridge. we can't just wake up one day with robots around us, unlimited energy, food suplies and living space. crypto can be the bridge.
and why you keep saying "free bitcoins" ?)  i intentinally wrote few times that i'm not talking about free money. free money leads to greed and lazines. two of the worst burden of human nature. by distribution i mean the widening circle of bitcoin users to the whole Earth population, but defenetly not on the base of foreceble expropriation and equal redistribution. this is way to nowhere.
it has to be some other way: just, transparent, beneficial for everybody, stimulating trust and honesty, fighting greed, corruption and laziness.

[Ucy]

all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

Bitcoin is money. Money is something you receive for goods or services. Why would one give for free the hard-earned money? Just because that money is called Bitcoin?!

It is the old idea that in a communist world everything would be wonderful, when the pure reality is that if all the wealth of the world were confiscated and distributed equally, the next day there would be rich and poor again, because some would save and invest and others would spend it all immediately on whores and drugs (to give extreme examples).

The only way to ensure "equality" would be, the day after, to confiscate again those who save and invest to give it to those who have spent it on whores and drugs.

And we would all live happily ever after.

Exactly, each individual in the world has different ways on handling their money that's why even the money in the world will be distributed equally, the next day or the next few weeks there will be a difference between social status once again. There will be those people who would choose not to work to earn more or choose to work to assure the security of their future. There will be people who will put their greed first and take advantage of other people's stupidity and ignorance. The world is too vast and complex, no matter how hard we try to make everything appear equal, it's just too impossible.

In regards to equality, one of the best way to understand it is to understand how human cells and body parts work together. The Head can't say it's  more important than the Hand that feed it, neither can the Eye say it's more important than the leg that carries it around. They need one another to survive and function properly.  They are all members of the body but with different functions...Same way human societies are members of the world but with different functions... Even the ignorants and self centered ones may not understand this.
You can't treat the rest of the members badly and expect the whole planet to be good. Same way the hand can't starve the leg and expect things to be ok.

The leg should quit trying to be like the eye. The eye should stop pretending like the leg doesn't matter.
They all have to focus on their roles and work for the good of the body rather than being selfish.

[NeuroticFish]

true) but to get there we need a bridge. we can't just wake up one day with robots around us, unlimited energy, food suplies and living space. crypto can be the bridge.
and why you keep saying "free bitcoins" ?)  i intentinally wrote few times that i'm not talking about free money. free money leads to greed and lazines. two of the worst burden of human nature. by distribution i mean the widening circle of bitcoin users to the whole Earth population, but defenetly not on the base of foreceble expropriation and equal redistribution. this is way to nowhere.
it has to be some other way: just, transparent, beneficial for everybody, stimulating trust and honesty, fighting greed, corruption and laziness.

If you don't give them for free, it means that they have to either buy them, which is already possible almost everywhere over the world, or work for them, which need some skills and luck, but it's possible too. So I fail to understand what you mean. If you don't give for free, there's no way you can give to everybody, they won't afford it or don't want it.

The bridge you want is, on some extent, made by social-oriented political parties, which in theory give out some minimal money to the poor (and in reality, in most cases, encourage laziness and basically buy votes with public money), in many cases sacrificing a proper development of the country (at least that's what has happened in recent history of my country).

I've noticed that wherever political parties are involved, greed, corruption and laziness are present. We need something worldwide and new (none of the current or past political regimes). But that's "science fiction" again.

But the bridge you want is not necessarily related to bitcoin. Plus that I would give money to people in a currency that doesn't have limited supply and irreversible transactions, since there's always the chance people won't withdraw that money.

[AKalinousky]

If you don't give for free, there's no way you can give to everybody, they won't afford it or don't want it.

the point is to make such a cryptocurrency (let's go wild here in si-fi universe) that people would want and can afford. something that will be:
* easy/convenient to use, cheap (low/no fees) and fast (processing time);
* transparent, secure, decentralized;
* capable of self-defence (possess a mechanism against manipulation and abuse of the system) and governed by the users/holders (different level of voting and various electoral, autonomous bodies within the system that counterbalance and equilibrate each other to avoid corruption and abuse of power);
* suppressing/making unnecessary an urge for greed and unreasonable enrichment (fee if you hold more than you need and speculate);
* stimulating trust, help and support for those who are in temporal difficulties (unforeseen circumstances, illness, etc) but not the LAZY one;
* discouraging laziness and make no room for freeloaders;
* ...

But the bridge you want is not necessarily related to bitcoin. Plus that I would give money to people in a currency that doesn't have limited supply and irreversible transactions, since there's always the chance people won't withdraw that money.

will unlimited supply be a cause of inflation/decrease in value and other issues of current monetary systems?
will reversible transactions complicate the system, make it less secure and stable?

[doomloop]

will reversible transactions complicate the system, make it less secure and stable?

Reversible transactions cannot be possible in a decentralized system.

Who will take care of disputes and be in charge of reversing transaction? In P2P environment, transacting in low volume and then transacting through escrow are the solutions which eliminate the need of reversible transaction.

Do we have reversible with fiats?
Yeah, having but possible only through lawsuit. Same applies here on bitcoin transactions as well.

[stompix]

~

so, you r the hostile one?
well, when it comes to non-bitcoiners even the worst enemies become friends 

Nobody is hostile here but you.
And there is no us and there is no them here, you're trying to pitch together people on an idea that actually makes you one of them not of us.

Besides that the simple thought of the whole bitcoin community being on board with your idea just because is bitcoin related is hilarious, we have hundreds of opinions here and hundreds of concepts, and each bitcoiners here has a different view of it from anarchist to commies, from the hard right-wing to socialist, and you're proposing an economical idea, of course, people will have different opinion, what did you respect, that suddenly they will open their pockets and start donating right and left?

In regards to equality, one of the best way to understand it is to understand how human cells and body parts work together. The Head can't say it's  more important than the Hand that feed it, neither can the Eye say it's more important than the leg that carries it around. They need one another to survive and function properly. 
~
You can't treat the rest of the members badly and expect the whole planet to be good. Same way the hand can't starve the leg and expect things to be ok.
The leg should quit trying to be like the eye. The eye should stop pretending like the leg doesn't matter.
They all have to focus on their roles and work for the good of the body rather than being selfish.

One of the worse analogies I've seen around.
First people survive without legs, arms, one kidney, ears, eyes...nobody does without a brain or a heart, a lot of organs can be replaced, again, not the brain.
And if you like analogies, there is also a form of socialism in the human body, made out of cells who are no longer wishing to do their jobs, who seek better payment without doing anything, you can pretty much guess what cells those are.

The problem occurs when the leadership of the party ends up in the hands of people like Lavrentiy Beria. The syphilis infested monster treated the ordinary citizens as his slaves and destroyed the lives of thousands of women. Thankfully the Soviets executed him after he tried to rape Stalin's daughter.

The raping is a myth and they didn't execute him for that at all, they killed him after the death of Stalin because they were afraid of him, it was more a dance of hyenas each too scared of the other than a true trial. A long sequence of people scared shit of each other, Beria of Stalin, Khrushchev of Beria, and so on and on, like all leaders that know they are nothing special and can be replaced at whim by the party.

[AKalinousky]

And there is no us and there is no them here, you're trying to pitch together people on an idea that actually makes you one of them not of us.

i'm a bit confused, in one sentence you said that "there is no us and there is no them" and "makes you one of them not of us".
and also. no offence, but to me your posts (at least in this topic) seems a bit cooky and hostile in comparison to other posters. i don't know who you are in real life, maybe you a cool, nice guy, but here is just criticism, criticism, criticism...

[beerlover]

even in the most extreme case equal distribution of bitcoin among all people on earth is quite resanable and 1* ten to the sixth power USD per BTC looks alright. all we need is a mechanism of equal distribution/

What are those most extreme case? If you have explained it earlier, kindly link me.

Your calculations are fine like if each and everyone on this planet if decide to own bitcoins then how much they may probably will get kind of thing is what I am getting on first reading. But, if you look for equal distribution then I am sure that you will never have any valid explanation on that and practically that will not be possible as already 11 years has been passed and bitcoin is distributed to around 40 million addys (which is approximate number of BTC addys with balances).

Sometimes back, I have come across a token which was airdropped to everyone and its name was something like mankind or similar to that. I mean that kind of thing alone here after possible if you are still concerned on "equal distribution".

[Bitstar_coin]

As much as your theory of equal distribution sounds unrealistic and unachievable because it is far too late to even think of it let alone make it a reality, let's assume for a second that this theory is attainable! So who's btc will be brought for equal distribution! Elon Musk or MicroStrategy or rest of the rich list guys perhaps   am sure they wouldn't mind given up all their billion dollars worth of btc for equal distribution according to op,
I really like the idea, just make it happen.     
Equal distribution for All.

[stompix]

i'm a bit confused, in one sentence you said that "there is no us and there is no them" and "makes you one of them not of us".

Yeah, pretty simple, I'm using your own logic.
I'm denying that there are just two sides but then, pointing out the flaws in your logic I'm showing that even if there were only two sides you will not be on the one you think you are.
Again you're trying to view unity when there is none and you think you're sharing the same ideas as a majority that doesn't exist here.

i don't know who you are in real life, maybe you a cool, nice guy, but here is just criticism, criticism, criticism...

And you're going to see more of it if you continue saying things I don't agree with! Isn't that normal?

Your whole idea started with taking people's money, when that failed you thought of a funnier one, of printing an endless amount of money to end poverty, a simple google search on Zimbabwe or Venezuela would have told you why this is a ridiculous idea.
So of course you will see only criticize from my side as you're simply pushing for the same ideas that have failed a hundred times in human history and they will fail again a thousand times. If you want to construct a solid plan start with not doing a thing, the fatal flaw in all those utopias, do not think about other's people money, start with yours!!!

[AKalinousky]

What are those most extreme case? If you have explained it earlier, kindly link me.

I edited original post based on the reply in this topic.

Your whole idea started with taking people's money, when that failed you thought of a funnier one, of printing an endless amount of money to end poverty, a simple google search on Zimbabwe or Venezuela would have told you why this is a ridiculous idea.
So of course you will see only criticize from my side as you're simply pushing for the same ideas that have failed a hundred times in human history and they will fail again a thousand times. If you want to construct a solid plan start with not doing a thing, the fatal flaw in all those utopias, do not think about other's people money, start with yours!!!

I don't know where you get all these ideas, may be it was my fault as i failed to represent it properly or may be you see some thing between the lines that are not there. who knows)

we have hundreds of opinions here and hundreds of concepts, and each bitcoiners here has a different view of it from anarchist to commies, from the hard right-wing to socialist

that's good, that's what make us different and unique

And you're going to see more of it if you continue saying things I don't agree with! Isn't that normal?

yeah, it's normal. but it seems you disagree not only with me but with others posters. and it's ok. you have your own point of view. but it can be expressed in more friendly manner. not arrogant one, with explicate demonstrative superiority. as i said before, we are all friends here, although you disagreed with it. well, you have right to do that

you're proposing an economical idea, of course, people will have different opinion

good! different opinions lead to discussion and not to passive nodding in agreement. "truth is born in disputes"