No, a publicly traded vehicle backed by bitcoin....similar to the ETF the Winkelvoss are attempting.

Coinbase is not a viable option and if you are talking about investors who would purchase something like this it would be after it is listed.

For some there is no point.  For some there is value in having BTC in a widely recognized format.  Right now the teenage girls clothing store The Limited has more value than all bitcoins on planet earth.   

I think and hope it will become a major piece of the global economy but it is very very far from this now in terms of size.  Personally I think for BTC to realize it's potential, larger market cap, wider adoption and price stability is key.

There are tons of dentists, small business owners, all the way up to billionaires and sovereign wealth funds who find the current process hard to understand and who simply won't buy bitcoin.  Eventually many of these people will understand and services like Coinbase will be easier to use -- this number may double, triple or quadruple the amount of assets involved in BTC near term, but it is doubtful that 200-300 times the people and investors will reach this understanding within a year or two. -- Even the US stock market after nearly a century has more participation indirectly through funds, intermediaries etc. than direct purchases.

As for ownership - when someone has shares of a stock in an IRA account they technically no longer own the stock, it is held in a trust and in the name of the trust, not the person.   This is common and is done by millions of people and organizations including every single Fortune 500 company, all of whom have large pension plans with billions of dollars in exactly this format.   Individuals are in the same situation.   (I'm not talking about a trust like this --- in this type of vehicle the shares would remain in the holders name, I'm only using that as an example.)

This vehicle would be publicly traded, likely trade at a premium to the underlying asset, provide leverage, be eligible to placed in tax deferred retirement accounts, could be borrowed against and would be able to appear on standard brokerage and investment statements in any type of brokerage account and would also be insured.

Some people see no advantage whatsoever to this and that's fine, I understand it and this wouldn't be for them.   It's not a fit for small investors, people who want to avoid taxes, people who want no part of the mainstream financial system or people who see no advantage in insurance or borrowing.   Others do see an advantage in insurance, more mainstream asset classes, leverage etc such as people who would like to borrow against BTC etc.

I am mainly talking about the investment industry support of the existing Bitcoin companies through things like venture capital.

Most of Wall Street does NOT get bitcoin or have any understanding.....but he few who DO get it (like the too VCs who have invested), really do get it.

I'm up on securities laws....I was a FINRA Series 24 General Securities Principal / registered supervisor for 15 years.

Bitcointalk is not close to the type of closed, verified, accredited investor group the SEC permits this type of communication.  No one would construe this as a board limited solely to accredited investors. 

That is referring to something like a website which a hedge fund makes available to people who are accredited by use of a password which they provide when the person has verified that they are accredited or when the fund has proof such as if they are a large institution.   Even then, those communications are not public communications in the sense of mass market like FB, chat boards etc.

This is why there is NEVER a legitimate offering from a legitimate firm discussed in detail on here or any other similar forum EVER....unless they are violating the regulations......this is why Fortress won't come on here with details, BIT would not discuss details and why Cameron Winkelvoss could not discuss anything about his potential offering on his Reddit AMA.

Some firms don't even allow employees to have LinkedIn profiles and many of the largest hedge funds have no website or a simple one-pager.

No idea what you are talking about.

Pretty close, someone could own the whole thing if they set it up and put all the BTC in.  I'm sorry but I'm not going to explain more on a bulletin board.   I know you may take that as secretive or whatever but I can't do it.

The BTC holders would own a portion representing their holdings....I wouldn't own their holdings, buy them etc. in fact they would not even be sold but placed in the vehicle and the BTC holders would own a representative  amount of that vehicle.

It's not at all close to the same in the eyes of regulators.   There are very specific definitions of "material communications with the public" and there is absolutely a legal difference between something posted on a public forum, we page, Twitter, public seminar, mailer, tv ad, or Facebook versus something which is not posted to the general public but is communicated privately to a limited audience by way of email, private message, phone, in person etc.

If you are interested ask your lawyer about communications related to securities laws, public offerings and investment professionals and I'm sure he will say the same thing.

Thanks it's for a public offering backed by BTC which would allow much more broad and easy public access to exposure in BTC for retail and institutional investors on a regular open exchange and would be available in standard brokerage accounts, IRA accounts etc.

I believe the listing method is superior to ETFs and the private offerings created by other companies.

Thank you -- like I said, I'm governed by regulations of the investment industry which are very strict about public communications....particularly something that could become an offering.

I'm happy to provide more verification, also provided my real name etc. and even speak to someone who is anonymous and without verification.

I understand people are cautious and if this is not enough, understand.

Well you've got to admit that's being a bit of a troll.

I came on here because I really to want advice and to speak with large BTC holders --- this is supposedly a respected forum and I want to get input from as many people and as much variety as possible.

It would have been much easier to do what my colleagues do and stay in a tiny bubble of acquaintances -- despite the trolls and clowns there is value in connections and input made from public forums.

Clever....not sure why you are so focused on wasting time.

I'm not going to argue about proving who I am to anonymous people on a chat board when I've already provided my real name and it's easily verifiable on Linkedin etc.

You are picking apart something you have absolutely no earthy clue about. 

I'm not being cagey but I'm not going to post details on a public forum....if we are involved in an offering at some point this could be construed as a "public communication" by regulators.   Without details you are just making wild accusations and assumptions.

Wall Street and How we can use it to Help Bitcoin


There are many benefits about increased Wall St. interest in BTC.

Some people see the investment industry as the enemy,

Please allow me to give some food for thought for those who are cautious about the investment business:

Wall Street/ the investment business is not monolithic- it's not all comprised of the top bankers at the 5-10 firms people list off when they speak of bad guys --- there are thousands of firms, hundreds of thousands of professionals and the overwhelming majority did no to harm others. It is most fair to judge people by what they themselves have done.

Yes, the bailouts sucked and were evil...but they were not the fault of everyone in the business.. Bailouts took money from citizens by force and threat of force (more accurately from future generations) and gave it to people to buy mansions and yachts as a REWARD for failing with incredibly stupid decisions in buying sub-prime debt. This is terrible. 1) not all of us participated in the bailouts.....in fact many of us were vocally against them, the bailouts benefited only a tiny number of those on the inside -- it's especially unfair to criticize members of the investment profession who received no benefit for something they were against 2) even having said that, lets be fair....does PRIMARY blame really go to the bankers or to Congress who seized the money in the first place? Do you know anyone who would turn down a huge check which could make themselves wealthy and save their business? (By the way, some banks did not even want the bailout but were forced to accept it, look it up)

Most people on Wall St. understand QE and many are not fans of the Fed policy - carful about lumping the Fed in with Wall St. yes, at the very very top levels it's closely connected....but we are talking about 20 people ....not the other one million of us who don't even work for those 20.

There are many very good and positive aspects of Wall St. like VCs / if we are defining this as the investment business in general then "Wall St." includes venture capital firms (some of which are physically located on the street called Wall St., most of which are obviously not). -- VCs bring a good deal of talent and money to companies and they help them grow -- business is very complex these days and VCs are some of the smartest people around: they have the know how and connections to help Bitcoin companies get in the door at huge and valuable partners, avoid pitfalls, hire the right staff etc.

Later stage Wall Street provides additional capital to help industries mature: Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon etc. ALL went public using Wall St. and all saw a benefit of that being the next growth stage.
Some people on Wall St. actually know what they are doing -- yes, there are scumbags and greedy people (not nearly as many as the movies like to portray) but in such a highly competitive business there are many really brilliant minds -- people who have excelled all their life and who work very hard and very smart -- they get new concepts and can indeed add value (some are fools of course)

Even the greedy don't see money as a zero sum game - the most successful, even notoriously ruthless bankers really DO want to make those around them rich....taking the cynical view maybe they do it only because its good business....but nevertheless most (especially people like VCs and PE funds and hedge funds) want nothing more than to own a (big) chunk of your thing and make you the next Zuckerberg.

If Bitcoin is to grow it needs real capital and Wall St has that capital....right now every Bitcoin on planet earth is worth less than the clothing store for teenage girls called The Limited and it's worth less than 5% of Nestlé. I love Bitcoin and believe in it, but sorry, with those current small numbers is a FAR way from being the serious piece of global economy I and everyone who believes in it knows it can be...In order to even start to get there it needs 10, 20, 40 times it's current market cap.....getting to the $100-400 billion range. At that rate one BTC is worth $10,000-40,000 and we are STILL not even as large as a top 20 company or even 1% of Internet transactions / a real currency. TO GET these levels of capital, Bitcoin needs real investors, real commitments -- that means lots of participation from institutional investors who make Winkelvoss sized commitments.....ATMs and store POS adoption simply can't add up.

Increased trading and investment also stabilizes the price-- traders trade on inefficiency -- the BTC markets are very inefficient right now -- as they grow and more investors, particularly large institutions participate then the price will grow and stabilize which means more merchants can accept without fear of wild swings.

Wall St. / institutional money has already helped Bitcoin a great deal --- if you think that investment and growth in companies like Coinbase is a good thing and you are happier with a price of 700-900 versus 100-300 then part of that thanks goes to Wall St. A huge amount of the growth last year was from institutional buying such as Winkelvoss and many OTC official and unofficial trades..... the number of early adopter economic techno geeks with over $1 mil is very small..... the mass of small investors just don't move the market like large ones. (10,000 $1000 people equals one $10 million person)

Bitcoin may change the world but it's extremely unlikely to obliterate old models without integrating with them first and changing them from within -- 1). Disruptive technology typically changes and integrates old tech-- some is killed off, most remains and adapts. IBM changed its model many times, old print media generally changed to adapt to the Internet -- for Wall St. It will be the same.....if Bitcoin is globally transformative it may kill a Western Union or two, it will create a few new Google sized companies and it will integrate with most old-school banks etc, transforming them --- old structures are too established to just disappear 2) for Bitcoin to have that kind of impact we are not just talking about the five year target of $100-400 billion that Winkelvoss (and me!) have.....we are talking about several trillion and a price per BTC of $3-4 million --- that may happen, I hope it does....but to think it will happen in five years is overly optimistic I think.....and IF IT DOES go to $4 million per coin (especially somehow doing so my magically bypassing where all the capital resides) guess what? Even at $4 million it STILL is not large enough to replace Wall St. ....it's about the size of the assets of one or two large banks, or about the market cap of the four largest companies....huge but still not the reset button on the world kind of huge.

FAIR BALANCE: the bad side of Wall Street
Will Wall Street people lie to you and rob you? Almost never....but they WILL stick it to you and squeeze every penny they can from you and, if your lawyer isn't smart enough to understand dilution clauses etc. they will whipsaw you.
Wall Street in general doesn't get Bitcoin and doesn't care about itsome of us are very passionate believers, others see it as a quick buck and don't even care if it has a real future as long as they can make a buck.
Personally I'm looking at some Bitcoin related stuff and I plan not to deal with Wall Street much, by choice. ** I'd rather deal with Bitcoiners. Not because Wall St. is full of bad guys but because so few "get it" yet.** and I like both communities but I generally like the BTC community a bit more.

(Written by Bruce Fenton a Bitcoin fan who comes from a career in the investment business)

TL: DR: Wall St. should be dealt with cautiously, offers many great advantages and is here to stay and will bring a net benefit to Bitcoin. Be realistic about how things change and grow historically, even the most disruptive technologies our world has ever seen.

I'm not asking for a loan or donation--  I have an impeccable record for over 20 years and have worked with some of the largest most reputable firms in the industry.  I've never remotely been close to involved in any boiler room operation and have not had any regulatory issue, ever.

If you think you have the wisdom you need to judge me based on almost no information which was gleaned from a bulletin board then have at it....don't contact me and don't provide the input I'm asking for in this thread....it's clearly not a fit for you and clearly you are not a fit either.

And people wonder why people are cautious of troll boards...

No, as I explained before I have an idea for a vehicle which would be public and provide easy access -- I believe this type of vehicle is superior to ETFs, private offerings and the other plans that people have announced.   In order for it to work, we'd need critical mass of 10-20k coins.

I'm  not looking to get people to sell or provide liquidity.

Clever but not close to true.

You're asking why not get new people to invest in Bitcoin by buying on MtGox and then work with them?

Sure, that's an option and something I could do.....I have plenty of access to capital from people who hold no Bitcoin.  

I'd much rather work with people who already understand Bitcoin and believe in it.  There are a handful of large investors interested in the space, some believe in it, some want to dabble in it as what they thrink might be a way to make some quick money on what they see as mania.  

In those types of meetings the conversation is 95% focused on what Bitcoin is, why they should be interested, questions about negative articles etc.  Happy to have those conversations with investors who are interested in BTC but I'd much rather talk with people who already get all of that, already believe in BTC and who want to keep BTC exposure.

I also like the idea of doing a full BTC based idea: paying the law firm and other service providers with BTC, paying employees with BTC etc and starting entirely with BTC.

Also, I'm talking to large BTC holders to get a feel for what the viability is and the interest levels.

The reason I'm not simply publishing the plan on here is:
- regulation-- if this does become an offering at some point I want to avoid anything in a public forum which could be construed by regulators as an offering of securities
- it's harder to wade through Internet forums to separate trolls and serious people and on boards it's easy to be confused -- also don't want to broadcast what I think is a good idea to competitors.
 

I really believe that more broad access is key.

There are lots of posts about new ATMs or new merchants accepting....yet all of the BTC on planet earth is still worth less than the teen clothing store The Limited or less than 5% of Nestle. 

I think we really need to get more real, WS sized, capital into BTC and key to this I think are several vehicles like Fortress, Winkelvoss and what I'm researching doing.

For BTC enthusiasts it does not seem a big deal to buy BTC....but for either the institutional investor or the general public....it's a hurdle.   They don't understand private keys, liquidity etc.

Something that allows a dentist in San Diego to call the same broker he has known for 20 years and say "sell 1200 AAPL, buy 900 BTC Fund" is key to increasing market cap and therefor increasing stability.

IMHO I think this is the most key thing to help BTC.....I really believe the price stability is a major barrier for consumers and retailers and I think market size will help that and have it's own benefits.