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261  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Loosely Managed Digital Currency Could Be Avenue for Crime That's Hard to Block on: April 17, 2011, 06:59:55 AM
Colby's article was probably about as balanced as you can be when the immediate, direct audience is the anti-money laundering crowd and those tasked with compliance. I think it's great that the web address is moneylaundering.com instead of antimoneylaundering.com.

Money laundering is a pejorative term to begin with because it insinuates that the participants do not have certain inherent rights to financial privacy. The Jews "laundered" their money to Switzerland in order to escape Hitler's holocaust.  Come on, people!  Financial privacy is a fundamental human right that has been consistently eroded and violated by governments.  We must take a step back and comprehend that "secrecy" does not mean "concealment", but rather that "secrecy" means "privacy" in its most basic sense.
262  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Loosely Managed Digital Currency Could Be Avenue for Crime That's Hard to Block on: April 16, 2011, 10:53:15 AM
How bitcoins work is a "step beyond any payment system I have ever seen," said Santorelli.

The currency, which is traded through software anyone can download, is not backed by precious metals or other commodities but relies on the fact that it is accepted by a group of consumers and merchants whose transactions are vetted by one another on a volunteer basis.


We all apparently support the "mass illusion" that is called the US Dollar when it is backed by nothing (other than a really big army). Governments only become suspicious and threatened when other groups voluntarily create and support their own "mass illusion", because they view it as competition to the THEIR illusion.  Bitcoin, more than anything, is a study in sociology and human nature.
263  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What if bitcoins were used in high-frequency trading? on: April 16, 2011, 10:32:21 AM
A market maker would be nice.  In my limited experience, the volumes are still too low for it to be profitable though.

If total size goes 100x from $5 mm to $500 mm...
Small Market Makers will come out of the woodwork...
And that USD spread will be < $0.01...
Trading is >> 90% automated these days...
It would take only days or weeks to adapt forex software for BT.

Volumes will increase. True, it would only take a few days to adapt forex software for BTC, but clearing and settlement from/into national currencies is where it touches the "KYC" anti-money laundering world, including OECD/FATF and Fincen.
264  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin Failure is likely on: April 16, 2011, 09:12:46 AM
A clone/improvement will succeed if it is somehow better to use than BTC.  There are enough pain points with BTC now that might make it inferior to a future currency.

All the advantages of BTC being scarce dry up once you realize that although BTC's are scarce, if you include all possible bitcoin implementations, they are as scarce as stars in the galaxy.

And for the good folks that think BTC has a big "head start"...
Let's say Google or Apple or Geico or a small Carribean Island...
Or some sort of enviro or political organization...
Decided to launch a BTC clone with minor enhancements...
Promoting heavily to an employee/user/zombie base of 50,000 or whatever...
Could vault past BTC in market share within months.

Having competing crypto-currencies...
Would actually help legitimize BTC...
If you have exactly ONE... to an average person it's suspect.
 

An environment of multiple cryptocurrencies is a likely future but I don't think a BTC clone will come from Google, Apple, or any nation-State because those entities would be centralized in nature and they would not be in a position to exploit the attributes of bitcoin, such as remaining open and operational while under political attack.  It would almost be like Google coming out with their own BitTorrent server to compete against The Pirate Bay.
265  Economy / Economics / Re: fiat anti-currency on: April 16, 2011, 09:03:39 AM
 Since it is everything fiat money is not, it has value as currency.  As a result it will attract negative elements such as gambling, prostitution, drugs, terrorism, and other illegal activities.

Secrecy=privacy. Those "elements" you mention are a red herring put forth by people who believe that secrecy=concealment. See Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse
266  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Yet to happen if it happens (TIME/tech) on: April 16, 2011, 08:53:25 AM

I'd like to emphasize a bit about how wrong it is to call bitcoin a private currency.

Bitcoin is certainly not private.  Sure, it is not organised by the government, nor it is protected by the use of so-called public force.  But it is not private either.

Bitcoin is much more public than any national currency.  I don't even have to explain why.  It is obvious enough.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree in the public nature of an open-source cryptocurrency (it is a good point).  The Atlantic piece wasn't the best article and a lot of my better points weren't even used.  I had no idea of the article's title while being interviewed.  Actually, I was addressing his question about Facebook Credits (which are a private currency). He seemed to confuse private currencies with digital cash and cryptocurrencies, not to mention the differences between an e-gold ledger-based system and the decentralised nature of signed RPOWs to prevent double spending. Still better to participate in the article then turn it down, which is what I did for the Colby Adams request.
267  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin's immunity to government action on: April 16, 2011, 08:41:32 AM

Or just keep it as it is, BitCoin - the stateless currency.

Yes, bitcoin as the stateless currency.  We should however focus more time on implementing decentralized p2p exchanges and also address the vulnerabilities of IRC in light of an attack.
268  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Yet to happen if it happens (TIME/tech) on: April 16, 2011, 06:30:28 AM
Bitcoin IS ACTUALLY discussed in The Atlantic Monthly Magazine:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/04/how-to-start-your-own-private-currency/73327/
269  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin's immunity to government action on: April 16, 2011, 06:10:01 AM

Maybe this will help? http://www.jonathangullible.com/PoL/philosophy_of_liberty.swf

Also, you might check out the wikipedia article I first linked to about anarcho-capitalism.

You might also see....  The Tiny Dot  http://youtu.be/H6b70TUbdfs
270  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: WeUseCoins: 2nd Video - Content on: April 16, 2011, 05:45:18 AM
Please see my recent presentation at Gibraltar conference where bitcoin was presented to the Prime Minister of Gibraltar and the leading eGaming companies in attendance.  FYI, Gibraltar is the world capital for online gambling companies and it is the country's #1 industry.

This is really cool.
How well did you think the politicians of Gibraltar received the idea of bitcoin? Do you think Gibraltar might eventually apply for what is said here? If online gambling is the country main industry, I suppose they have interest in it... but I wonder how strong can international "diplomacy" be over these tiny countries...

It's not very clear to me how independent Gilbraltar is from UK, though. Actually before you saying they have a prime-minister, I thought they were technically just like a UK city overseas.
Does financial laws from UK apply in Gibraltar?

The attendees came from various places (i.e., Malta, Isle of Man, Ireland, UK, Bulgaria, etc) but they were all involved at some level in the online gaming industry. A member of the EU, Gibraltar has its own constitution and governs its own affairs via its own elected parliament. The independent judicial system of Gibraltar is modeled on the common laws of England & Wales which is seen as a benefit in business dealings (compared to Panama or Costa Rica for instance). Financial law follows the EU and the UK, but having said that Gibraltar has been very effective at leveraging the recent e-money legislation and e-money companies do quite well in Gib. Several have been set up and they are permitted to issue VISA and Mastercard prepaid cards without having a full bank license which is required in the US.

I wouldn't get too hopeful though about any country formally embracing bitcoin because they all still answer to OECD/FATF and Know-Your-Customer anti-money laundering laws (you would almost have to go Libya or Iran if you wanted to ignore OECD/FATF). Considerable pressure still comes from the US government on these matters and online gambling companies respect the US law of not allowing US players.

The bottom line is that the attendees do not seem to perceive the payment method as a "competitive advantage" so they happily receive the other fee-based payment alternatives.  They tend to focus more on the competition for eyeballs and affiliates feeding them traffic so in many ways it resembles the economics of online porn.
271  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: WeUseCoins: 2nd Video - Content on: April 14, 2011, 10:52:33 AM
Creighto,

Please see my recent presentation at Gibraltar conference where bitcoin was presented to the Prime Minister of Gibraltar and the leading eGaming companies in attendance.  FYI, Gibraltar is the world capital for online gambling companies and it is the country's #1 industry.

http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/03/monetising-game-play-on-social-network.html
(the bitcoin section begins on page 11.)

My other "pre-bitcoin", Chaumian-type cryptocurrency work was completed during my tenure at VeriSign, Inc. where I was employed after VISA. One such 1995 piece was published by both the London School of Economics and the Libertarian Alliance:

http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2009/05/london-school-of-economics-publishes.html
(please note that this early digital cash work was subsequently referenced in a leading Economics textbook)

http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/econn/econn063.pdf

272  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: WeUseCoins: 2nd Video - Content on: April 14, 2011, 01:05:27 AM

I can assure you that there are academicly trained economists that are watching Bitcoin.  I can also assure you that none of them that you would want to review Bitcoin is going to be willing to stake their professional reputation yet.

If all you need is the script reviewed, either post it here in the economics section of this forum; jump to one of the many economic forums elsewhere.  I think that you'll find that there is no real consensus that can be achieved on any of the questionable parts.

I am an economist and I already have staked my reputation on Bitcoin.
273  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: WeUseCoins: 2nd Video - Content on: April 14, 2011, 01:02:49 AM

I'd like to see a video targeted towards left-leaning people that argues from their world-view-- why the existing monetary system is unfair and benefits a rich elite at the expense of the working masses.  How Bitcoin can change that and be a People-Powered money, backed not by empty promises from rich bankers but by the strength and trust of the person-to-person Bitcoin Community.  How friends and neighbors using Bitcoin can keep money in local communities.  How using Bitcoin lets you interact with people all over the world, promoting peace and understanding.  How it is better for the environment than gold mining or trucking coins and cash to and from stores and banks.

Well, I think that's what someone called "narratives".

We still need a narrative for anonymity, though.

I believe the narrative for anonymity is "financial privacy" as a fundamental human right.  Where along the way did we lose our basic right to simple financial privacy?  Sheeple have been unfairly conditioned to think that secrecy equals concealment and nothing could be further from the truth. It is wrong to preach that we have to surrender basic financial privacy so that TPTB can endlessly chase the Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse.  Secrecy = Privacy,  Secrecy ≠ Concealment. See http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/jibc/9601-2.htm
274  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Want to see something weird? on: April 12, 2011, 08:56:49 PM
Seems natural to me.
275  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Amsterdam - Bitcoin at one free hackmeeting + another conference on: April 08, 2011, 08:10:20 AM
I just watched the video of the talk.  Excellent job, Genjix. I really enjoyed the highlighting of the money laundering service from Mike Gogulski. You are now added to the great BIG gubmint database of public bitcoin advocates when they come for us.  "Sir, but it's just a math puzzle".....Cheers.
276  Other / Off-topic / Re: NEW: Bitcoin Fractional Reserve Bank on: April 03, 2011, 10:40:09 AM
Intriguing thoughts from @webisteme on Bitcoin and Fractional Reserve Banking:
http://www.webisteme.com/blog/?p=192

...and, my comment to his blog post:
This is an interesting thesis. At this point in bitcoin’s evolution, I still see any bitcoin ‘reserves’ as similar to gold (or silver) reserves with the primary difference being that bitcoin does not suffer the same portability, divisibility, and security issues which gave rise to the gold reserve note in the first place. Back to the demand side of money, why would a user accept a bitcoin reserve note when the actual bitcoin has better overall transactional properties than its derivative?

Having said that, in the absence of a parallel bitcoin fork or parallel cryptocurrency, I do not believe that the bitcoin economy will support fractional reserve banking. I disagree with Gavin Andresen on this point. Lending will indeed exist through timed deposit instruments rather than ‘on-demand’ current accounts. This would not be unlike the gold leasing arrangements that exist today for the world’s above-ground gold reserves (of, course, I’m referring to the non-fraudulent ones). Being highly divisible, fungible, nearly real-time, and already decentralized, bitcoin negates the conditional criteria that gave rise to fractional reserve free banking in the pre-bitcoin era.
277  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Can I be taxed? on: March 13, 2011, 12:14:40 PM

There's another one called CoinTumbler at the Onion address: http://lbrmvt4plqojaulx.onion/

Server Not Found error on the onion address.  Is that correct address?
278  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Can I be taxed? on: March 13, 2011, 12:10:25 PM

I have a question about taxing and how easy it is to find me.
...

But seriously, how can Bitcoin become ubiquitous without dealing with the tax issue? If it ends up displacing USD or whatever currency is in the country of interest, then the government would essentially get no funding because it is nearly impossible for them to figure out who owns which bitcoins, how me depositing to my "savings" wallet is any different from a commercial exchange, and if specific bitcoins are still even "in" the country or not.

Like it or not, at least some taxation is necessary, so I'm trying to see how bitcoin can succeed when the global scope and decentralization makes it practically impossible to tax? (If this information is out there, please let me know. I've pretty much been reading about bitcoins all week and this doesn't seem addressed.)

The bitcoin economy will grow and prosper precisely because it has the potential to facilitate a parallel economy that can also operate beyond the scope of taxation. All types of transactions will be attracted to a taxation-free zone because throughout history no- to low-tax zones have always thrived against their counterparts (Hong Kong, US in the 1800s).  This parallel economy will know no political borders so it will not even be clear which taxation authority has the jurisdiction over the economic participant(s).

Even if the proper jurisdictional taxation entity could be reasonably determined, they would still be faced with applying a tax to a reusable proof-of-work 'puzzle'. Firstly, how do you tax a mathematical puzzle without giving it monetary legitimacy?  How do you determine the political borders of the recipient key (if recipient is careful)?  How do you determine the total amount to tax if bitcoin laundries and mixers are used?  Today, an individual can work for bitcoin in anonymous fashion from an undetected geographic location and then spend bitcoin or anonymously trade out of bitcoin.  I don't really see that changing. I'd be more worried about an authoritarian shutdown of the IRC network.
279  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: If Bitcoins catch on, will people get used to having so few? on: March 07, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
The Japanese ¥en currently trades at $0.012190 to the dollar and people still use ¥ quite a bit.

In fact, when the ¥en was trading at 130 to the dollar in the good ol' days, it was 1¥ = $0.007692  (traders would just drop the first two zeros and trade it as 7692/7694).

That's the opposite situation. People have to deal in tens or hundreds of thousands of yen, not figures like .00006831


Not true.  It's only the opposite situation if looking at it from the ¥en-to-Dollar perspective.  When you look at it from Dollar-to-¥en (or future BTC-to-Dollar) perspective, then one Dollar would equal .0070 BTC in future.  Exchange rates are always different sides of the same 'coin'. Just inverted.
280  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin - A Movement? on: March 07, 2011, 04:43:43 PM
Its a revolution without needing to fire any bullets or break things.

Second that, noagendamarket. Governments are not going to roll back taxes and create tax-free zones, because it's more in their interest to grow and to expand.  The forces on the side of liberty periodically attempt to rein in the government but it merely has the effect of only slowing its rate of growth. This is unfortunate.

The bitcoin economy will grow and prosper precisely because it has the potential to facilitate a parallel economy that can also operate beyond the scope of taxation. All types of transactions will be attracted to a taxation-free zone because throughout history no- to low-tax zones have always thrived against their counterparts (Hong Kong, US in the 1800s).  This parallel economy will know no political borders so it will not even be clear which taxation authority has the jurisdiction over the economic participant(s).

Even if the proper jurisdictional taxation entity could be reasonably determined, they would still be faced with applying a tax to a reusable proof-of-work 'puzzle'. Firstly, how do you tax a mathematical puzzle without giving it monetary legitimacy?  How do you determine the political borders of the recipient key (if recipient is careful)?  How do you determine the total amount to tax if bitcoin laundries and mixers are used?  Today, an individual can work for bitcoin in anonymous fashion from an undetected geographic location and then spend bitcoin or anonymously trade out of bitcoin.  I don't really see that changing. I'd be more worried about an authoritarian shutdown of the IRC network.
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