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961  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [340 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 26, 2012, 06:49:35 PM
So you effectively made ~9% off your miners by going to Goat ?

4% fee + 5% bonus.
Not exactly. The experiment with gigaminer was small (about a million shares), but a complete disaster. We ended up paying our miners for about 200,000 valid shares which have been rejected upstream.

ABC miners are always credited for every valid share they submit as long as it’s not a duplicate. Even if an 'upstream pool' later turns out to reject the share, the original miner is still credited.

That's another way that we create a predictable experience for our miners, which cost us quite a bit in this instance.
962  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [340 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 26, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
And on a completely unrelated note... I see that my invalids have shot up to almost 5% since yesterday..  Any idea what is up with that?

Sigg

They are implementing load balancing to their servers and it isn't 100% yet. 
You are hitting the nail on the head despoiler. Although we tested successfully under light load, the switch did not go altogether smoothly when it was rolled out in full. Those issues have been resolved last night. We will report on the DDOS and the countermeasures shortly.
963  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [340 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 26, 2012, 06:28:43 PM
Hi everyone,

Thanks for your patience. While we took care of rolling out the DDOS countermeasures, a lively discussion has been going on in the ABC thread. We think the time has come to explain a few things about how ABCPool works behind the scenes.

Well-respected forum member Meni Rosenfeld ran the numbers on running a PPS pool, and while ABCPool was still young he shared those with us in a PM conversation:
Most people greatly underestimate what the risk of PPS is. You may want to have a look at my discussion of PPS here. If you don't take a fee there is a 100% chance you will go bankrupt eventually. If you take 2% fee and start with a reserve of 500 BTC the chance is 67%, which is very high. And this is without considering losses due to block withholding, stales, invalid blocks etc.
That pdf  [https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf which Meni introduced earlier]  seems to offer a straightforward way to compute the fee, great!
You could use it that way. Take some reasonable number for delta, such as 1/1000. Then the fee should be
f = (B ln(1/delta))/(2R) = 173/R
so for a 10,000 BTC reserve you should take 1.7% fee.
To this you need to add losses from useless shares - if this loss is 2% you need 3.7% fee.
It's important to realize that running a PPS pool can't be done as a hobby. It's a serious business that needs a very careful risk assessment. The more accurate your loss estimate (and the lower you manage to make these losses) the more successful it will be.
Well, as you might imagine, we did not have 10,000 BTC. Neither did at least three other PPS pools that have since gone out of business or changed their reward model.

But if we could somehow decrease that enormous risk, the required buffer could also be a lot smaller. That’s why we now do what most miners do. They consider solo mining too risky, and aggregate their mining power with the mining power of others by joining a pool. Or in our case, joining several pools.

And as any pool miner has experienced, the result is as expected: less variation in the payouts we receive. In turn we are now able to pay the ABC miners their PPS rewards without a 10,000 BTC buffer, without a 10% fee, and without the immediate loom of pool bankruptcy hanging over us.

Pool growth in December was overwhelming. Meanwhile we were still compensating (1) orphaned blocks and (2) stale shares. And although the risk was reduced by pool mining, we had (3) a lot of bad luck that month. That's when we had to start charging the 4% fee.

We understand that there might be people who want to leave ABCPool, having heard this news. Maybe you want the pool operator to take the full risk of finding blocks. Maybe you'd rather take your chances on a non-PPS pool, now that you know that we do so too. Maybe you feel that we should have disclosed this information earlier. Whatever your reason, that's fine with us. Of course if you stay, you can continue to enjoy all the benefits ABCPool provides; nothing is changing there.

We hope this explanation clears things up a bit. You are free to ask any question you have about the pool's workings. We will however not go into too much detail because the competition is always watching.



There were a few comments in this thread recently that are inviting a reply:
infos like round stats, block history, top hashers would be nice to have?
lmfao Smiley
Anyway they do not mine blocks or have rounds so they can't post this...
We may list block history and top hashers in the future. There are no rounds however because we pay per share, not per round. See also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33586.msg685134#msg685134

So what I do know and can prove is that ABC was sending me hashing power and they were getting paid 105% for this.

Some of ABCPool hashpower went to Goat’s project, around a million shares.

I did not DDOS them, I do not even know why you would think that was related.
The DDOS is indeed a completely separate incident, involving thousands of hosts. Goat had nothing to do with it. Now that the countermeasures are in place, we will supply a post-mortem on the DDOS shortly.

Happy hashing everyone!
MC & Chlorine
964  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [499 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 26, 2012, 05:22:35 AM
The fact that the operators of this pool have not responded to those comments is cause for concern, at least for me.  Looking forward to getting some resolution soon. You can say that I am being paid for my hashes at the agreed upon rate, but I assumed (and shame on me I guess for assuming) that my hashes were used to find a block for this pool, not forwarded for use to other pools.
We have read your comments and will respond later today. For now rest assured that your shares will always be rewarded as agreed, just as they have been in the past.

There's some other news: one of the stats tables became corrupted. We've since restored it from yesterday's backup. on your stats page you will not see any shares reported between 18:51 (yesterday) and 02:57 (today) UTC.

The issue has only affected the statistics as displayed: All shares from that period have been credited to your balance at the normal PPS rate.
965  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [499 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 25, 2012, 04:47:56 PM
We're currently migrating ABCPool to a load-balanced setup, which is causing some unforeseen connectivity issues. We hope to have it resolved within an hour.
966  Bitcoin / Pools / Lowered fee for the rest of January! on: January 23, 2012, 12:59:59 PM
You have probably noticed ABCPool was down for more than a day last week due to a DDOS attack. While we have been working around the clock to mitigate it, it's near impossible to continue service during such attacks. Several large pools have shown that in the past (deepbit, slush, btc guild to name a few). Still, we are working hard on a number of countermeasures for the future that will at least be effective in some scenarios.

We are sorry for any downtime the attack has caused you.

For your mining pleasure we have lowered the nominal fee to 1.5% for the rest of January!

Happy hashing!
MC
967  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: ABCPool.co: Pay-per-Share pool that pays for stales! (newbie support thread) on: January 23, 2012, 04:41:10 AM
FYI: Asdf2121's issue was handled by Chlorine on 2012-01-19.
968  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [499 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 18, 2012, 11:13:11 PM
Jumped on for just 10 minutes and no stale shares on a 1GH/s box.  Too short a timeframe to draw much conclusion but pleased to see it wasn't 5% rate...
Service levels are indeed back to normal since a few hours. Don't start celebrating yet, we still need to finish up the work on hardening the pool against these kind of events.

MC
969  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [499 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 18, 2012, 04:05:30 AM
I'm posting to get email notifications for this thread.

I'm also having issues connecting at the moment, I'm mining for Deepbit.net while I wait for ABCPool.co to get back online.
The barrage has not subsided yet, and I'm afraid a workaround is impossible at the moment.

Time for some sleep. We'll continue working on this first thing tomorrow, but it seems like we may just have to wait this one out.
970  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [499 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 18, 2012, 02:23:52 AM
Back down again for the past hour or so...  Angry
Thanks jwu, we are aware (and still working on it). The attack had subsided for a bit, but is now back in full swing. It seems some more measures are necessary.
971  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [499 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 17, 2012, 10:10:41 PM
Looks like whitelisting may have begun; a good chunk of my miners at my primary location are back, but alternate locations (and thus IPs) still showing down.
UPDATE: we have been experimenting with various ways of mitigating the attack. A portion of all users is now able to mine again, but network congestion from the attack could degrade performance. If you are experiencing dropped connections you are advised to use a backup pool for now.

If you cannot connect, it will probably be at least 8 hours before you can mine on ABCPool again.
972  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [499 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 17, 2012, 06:08:25 PM
Looks like it's offline again.

Confirmed.
Looking into it.

UPDATE: It's official, ABCPool is playing with the big boys now: We are being DDOS'ed! We're now going to do some emergency whitelisting on the network perimeter and then figure out a more permanent solution. The pool will most likely be unavailable for a few hours; keep an eye on the forum for updates.
973  Bitcoin / Pools / NEWS: ABCPool temporarily down on: January 17, 2012, 03:42:52 PM
Hi miners,
16:00 UTC: Problems at our hosting provider caused ABCPool to be offline for now. Cause is yet unknown, but i'm inclined to guess that the pool will be back online in half an hour.

Sorry for the inconvenience!

UPDATE 17:00 UTC: pool is back online. The bare metal on which the server was hosted gave up. Data is unaffected, all shares have been counted. Please check your miners to make sure they have reconnected.

Thanks for your patience while we resolved this. Happy hashing again everyone!
974  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [409 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 13, 2012, 09:07:05 PM
DiabloMiner output goes like this:
Code:
     
[1/13/12 3:30:40 PM] ERROR: Cannot connect to pool.ABCPool.co: Bitcoin disconnected during response: 200 ok
[1/13/12 3:32:41 PM] ERROR: Cannot connect to pool.ABCPool.co: Bitcoin disconnected during response: 200 ok
I've looked through our source code, and at some point we switched to shorter timeouts for the longpolls. They're now every 120 seconds, which means that that timeout is indeed what diablominer is reporting. Therefore what you see is expected behavior.

While the negative part of this effect will be between 0.00% and 0.02% in wasted GPU cycles (depending on your latency), the positive effect more than compensates that because of the faster longpoll-handling whenever a new block is reported.
975  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [409 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 13, 2012, 07:59:12 PM
Well, I am getting that error like every minute. I have no idea if its hurting the production if at all. Is there a parameter to pass on to DiabloMiner to adjust this?
As far as i'm aware there's no parameter to hide the message in Diablominer. Why don't you PM me the log output and I'll take a look at it. Please also include your GPU/worker configuration.
976  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [409 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 13, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
I am getting sporadic (about 1 out of 15 blocks) errors:

ERROR: Cannot connect to pool.ABCPool.co: Bitcoin disconnected during response: 200 ok

I am directly connected to high bandwidth internet using DiabloMiner. What could be wrong?

Hi 99Percent,
That error message indicates that the long poll connection was terminated. ABCPool releases those connections on purpose for performance reasons.

The message should occur ca. every 10 minutes, and only when a new block was not found within that time. In those cases it is innocent and you may ignore it. Diablominer will immediately reconnect after the connection has been released.

hope this helps,
MC
977  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [409 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 11, 2012, 12:55:40 AM
Is there a way to view the block history?
Hi Stoppots,
Every member of ABCPool is paid per share. The share price is determined by a formula based on the theoretical expected number of blocks to be found. That reward is independent of when or how much blocks are actually found. As such we do not list the block history, sorry!
Why exactly do you do this. btcguild.com is also a straight PPS pool but they should the blocks they have found.

Do you not want your miners to be able to figure out your actual income?
Kudos to BTCGuild for providing their block history to the mining community. And your interest is noted!

Chlorine and I are trying to do the best we can with our limited resources. The next feature to be introduced will most likely be automated password recovery and account reset, since the current manual process is slow and takes quite some effort to support as we keep gaining more and more users.

Of course, as always, you're welcome to suggest any other features you'd like to have on ABCPool! You can reply here or PM me or Chlorine directly. Just don't expect it to be implemented the next day! Wink
978  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [409 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 10, 2012, 07:37:53 PM
Is there a way to view the block history?
Hi Stoppots,
Every member of ABCPool is paid per share. The share price is determined by a formula based on the theoretical expected number of blocks to be found. That reward is independent of when or how much blocks are actually found. As such we do not list the block history, sorry!
979  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [409 GH] ABCPool PPS - you should join now! <0.1% invalids & immediate payouts! on: January 10, 2012, 03:08:18 PM
Hi Hotdog,
We have had a few minutes of connectivity issues this morning, reporting is running fine.
980  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [409 GH] ABCPool PPS - join now & get the best payouts out there! 2.1% eff. fee! on: January 09, 2012, 02:49:04 PM
Your "effective fee" is very misleading.  Your fee is 4%, and you should advertise it as such.  
AGREED 110%
And as others said before your "effective fee" is the exact opposite of beeing transparent.  Undecided
exactly!
A complain that I somewhat agree though, is that stable miners with less stale or invalid shares pay more fee, and in a certain way, pay for miners who produce more stale or invalid shares. My lifetime invalid + stales share are at 0.3%, I think I'm far from the 1.9%. I agree that the overall effective fee of the pool is 2.1%, but my effective fee, for my account only, is currently at 3.7%. My shares seems of better quality than the average miner on this pool, but I pay more fee because I'm better.
Ah! Maybe now I finally understand where the confusion is coming from. Thanks for sharing your reasoning! Now to clear things up, hopefully: In the Bitcoin world there is a difference between 'invalid shares' and 'invalid blocks'. At ABCPool we subdivide invalid shares into 'stale shares' and 'invalid shares':

  • Stale share - a share (handed in by a miner) that is solution for the previous block. It's up to a few seconds late and therefore useless. ABCPool pays you anyway. Poolwide average is at 0.4% of total shares, but the individual number differs depending on your latency, software and hardware.
  • Invalid share - a share (handed in by a miner) that is duplicate, wrong, or extremely late. ABCPool does not pay for these.
  • Invalid block (or orphan block) - a valid share submission that is also a valid block solution, but later turns out to be rejected by the bitcoin network. The theoretical (50BTC/difficulty) reward formula assumes all blocks are valid. However, 1.5% of found blocks become orphan blocks that do not generate 50 BTC. This is because of network latency in the Bitcoin network and has nothing to do with the miners connection to the pool. However, that practical difference of 1.5% makes the theoretical reward unrealistic. At non-PPS pools orphan blocks also cost you 1.5%, even though a 0% fee is listed: The pool doesn't get the 50 BTC reward, so it is also never distributed among miners (there are exceptions, such as deepbit). At PPS pools, the 1.5% can only be compensated by a 'fee'.
I hope this explanation clears things up. I will also change the terminology from 'invalid block' to 'orphan block' to better highlight that it is very different from an 'invalid share'.

Quote
You need to make a revenue and I don't complain about the fee. Overall, it is still a good deal. But your structure of fee seems to reward more the average miner than the high quality one. [...]
Indeed, low-quality miners benefit more from the stale-compensation than high-quality miners; the individual stale-rate might vary roughly between 0% and 1%. Our goal is to provide the most predictable mining experience out there. PPS is of course already the most predictable reward mechanism, but stale-compensation makes it even more predictable. When you consider non-pps pools, you'll always need to correct the fee to include the expected stale rate. Since other pools do not do that calculation for you, our 'effective fee' attempts to make the correction the other way around.
Quote
Anyway, in order to make this fee less painful ( Wink ), I'll ask for a feature for the website. [...]. It would be nice to add, besides each worker, a timer that indicate at which moment the pool stopped receiving information from the worker.
Excellent idea. I've added it to our features roadmap!
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