Latest posts of: rogerwilko

Look on the face of it, its a great idea. I have seen dozens and dozens of posts on here and other sites with people asking to exchange gift cards for BTC.
The issue is your website whilst clean is very basic. Lack of contact details/information/ FAQ's - it just smells like a scam. I am sure you are trying to be a legit operation, but right now the scam klaxon is sounding.

10% mark up is reasonable although not amazing.

I would probably look for alternatives than using you based on all the above.

Quote from: teilwalL05 on February 26, 2019, 12:24:07 PM

I really think you are technically minded enough to sort out your problem and you already said that you had been using many possible wallets for your client which is then correct because I really think we should have multiple wallets if we would want to hold for more coins than we can ever carry, And next is having a 3rd party that both of you and your clients trust, This will be the sole purpose of it because you need someone to sure verify and secure your wallet and an attorney is simply there for the legal agreement you and your clients will have, And lastly, In my opinion, I think you can then use regular wallets for your convenience and I think that even though there is a strong security wallet that you may found there is still a possibility that it may still compromise because of the upgrading technology we have hackers may find themselves upgrading as well.

This forum is full of people who can't read posts but feel the need to comment just to make themselves feel knowledgable.

Quote from: cryptokingdom on February 26, 2019, 12:40:20 PM

Using hardware wallet is the best especially if the crypto is for long term. I will advise you to spend time in educating your client about cryptocurrency and all the risk involve, tell them the do's and don'ts when keeping cryptocurrency.

For GODS SAKE - pleased read posts before you comment. This forum is full of people who can't read posts but feel the need to comment just to make themselves feel knowledgable.

Quote from: Whosdaddy on February 25, 2019, 08:00:22 PM

I don’t think it is advisable to hold their currency for them, it is better to open an account for them and give them access to the platform so they can be in full control and make them understand fully the operation and security, though you will still have access to the account pending the time your contract with them ends, I once did this with someone I introduced to BTC, I bought BTC for them when it was high which was in my personal wallet but by the time BTC fell, they became impatient and had to request for their full money back from me which I could not provide since I was not the one controlling the market, I tried explaining but it got worse till I was sued for it, first question I was asked at the law firm was if they had access to their BTC personally as at the time I bought it for them which I said NO and that is how I lost the case because it looks as if he borrowed the money which was time for me to pay back. If you still insist on holding though, I think exodus wallet is still more secured.

I can 100% promise you are situations are not alike. If you actually took the time to read my original post and the subsequent posts you wouldn't have wasted your time writing nonsense which may have enabled you to spend your time replying with something of value.

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I can't understand why you refuse to use hardware crypto wallets for your own or clients' safety. Maybe,you have no idea how safe is to use this wallets or your imagination about hardware wallets is limited. Just give it a try and you will not regret it.
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Well if you actually READ my original post and the subsequent replies you wouldn't continue asking a stupid question that has been answered several times. I fully understand hardware wallets.

I am convinced people only reply to earn hero points without actually having anything to say that is relevant.

Quote from: btyco on February 25, 2019, 04:48:21 PM

Force your clients to get a hardware wallet and then give you the public address. It is easy for you to deposit the funds and track it on explorer, while they hold the keys and the physical wallet

Whilst I appreciate you taking the time to reply, you haven't actually read my original post or subsequent posts. For the umpteenth time a hardware wallet is NOT a good enough solution.

Quote from: talkbitcoin on February 25, 2019, 09:12:22 AM

may i ask what your plans on about the big losses that this kind of investment is going to give you and since you are doing it for other people, them too?
for example if you started last year and bought bitcoin and ethereum as you are saying in OP, you would have lost about 70% in bitcoin and more than 96% in ethereum.

Well, I am not buying retrospectively. What has happened in the past is irrelevant. If you base your buying decisions on what has happened in the past, then good luck - because you are doomed to fail.

My clients are in this for the LONG RUN, this is 5 to 10 year plans.

BTC & ETH are the only 2 I and my clients are interested in as the rest I just see a shitcoins - no better than the penny stock bubbles of the 1980's and 1990's and then all the dotcom companies of the naugthies.

This isn't something I have just written on the back of a fag packet "oh let's throw a few hundred thousand euro a month into crypto"

From a BTC and ETH point of view, I have been involved/had an interest for a few years.

Quote from: Viceroy on February 24, 2019, 05:35:16 PM

First of all, great idea. We need more proactive people like you to spread crypto. Why you care though? You just do what you do, and from what I read I got the idea you understand perfectly well your aims, which is awesome.

Thanks Buddy. Doing my bit to convince a few people about bitcoin ;-)

Quote from: Kakmakr on February 24, 2019, 08:37:26 AM

First of all, it takes a huge pair of balls to do this. I know there are some clueless investors out there, that wants to dip their toes into Crypto currencies, but they are too scared, because they do not know how to secure these coins. <You tapped into a huge market, so kudos for that.> Grin

My advice will be to go for some hardware wallet, which makes things a lot less difficult. <The owner of the hardware wallet retains the Seed and you keep a copy, just in case something happens with their device or if they lose the Seed.>

The Ledger Nano supports most popular Alt coins, so you should be covered. Wink

As I have already said, a hardware wallet is not good enough.

Think of it like this. I set up my client with a hardware wallet. At the end of February, I convert Jan & Feb profits to BTC. So currently it will be about 73.5BTC.

The client gets phished/scammed/ wrote his seed words somewhere stupid.

BOOM that's 73BTC lost. Brilliant.

Quote from: buwaytress on February 23, 2019, 06:47:47 PM

Quote from: squatter on February 23, 2019, 06:03:12 PM

There's no ideal situation here.

You can do 2-of-2 and hope that your client never loses their key/seed, but if they lose them, the money is gone.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold two keys (in separate physical locations to prevent compromise) and your client holds one, but this effectively places the funds in your sole custody. That raises liability issues if the funds are ever stolen.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold one key and your client holds two (in separate physical locations) but again, this opens the possibility that your client has his keys/seeds compromised.

Whatever you do, I would avoid any liability in case things ever go awry. You don't want to be on the hook for a 20 BTC loss.

You could also consider an institutional custody service like Bitgo. I'm not sure exactly how their setup and pricing works but lots of services use them for multi-sig storage.

This was my point and OP I hope you pay attention to this. Forget all the complexities of multisig and all the litigation risk plus extra vulnerabilities of custodial service (meaning, you should never, ever take care of their bitcoin for them).

You've repeated it that you only want to manage it for them, and advising them to hold. So a simple hardware wallet, seeds owned only by them. You can get them to store the seed in their safe/vault/wherever they store their most precious thing. They can even write it down along with their Amex for all you should care, that is their choice and their risk. Tell them of their responsibilities to seek their own custodial services if they don't trust themselves.

You simply don't want liability, why spoil a great and profitable relationship?

Hardware wallet. You know the address, that's all you need to manage and report. Good luck!

Oh I am paying attention to the posts are you?
As I have already said, a hardware wallet is not good enough.

Think of it like this. I set up my cleint with a hardware wallet. At the end of February, I convert Jan & Feb profits to BTC. So currently it will be about 73.5BTC.

Client gets phished/scammed/ wrote his seed words somewhere stupid.

BOOM thats 73BTC lost. Brilliant.

So a hardware wallet is NOT good enough for this.

"Tell them of their responsibilities to seek their own custodial services if they don't trust themselves." Thats what he is paying me to do!

Quote from: pooya87 on February 24, 2019, 07:27:28 AM

Quote from: rogerwilko on February 23, 2019, 08:41:11 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on February 23, 2019, 03:25:52 AM

you don't need to store cryptocurrencies "for" clients because unlike fiat, transferring cryptos is easier, fast and a lot cheaper. and that would be also a lot safer. since you already claim it is to "buy and hold" then you must ask for their addresses and pay them right away. then it is their responsibility to learn how to properly secure their coins.
if i were you i would worry about more important matters such as getting involved with altcoins that can get dumped hard since they are pump and dumps even though they may seem like a big deal!

Thanks for the response but where in my post does it mention other altcoins? I am not interested in shitcoins. Seriously though, my client really isn't interested in learning about bitcoin - that's why I made my post.

if your first paragraph when you say "I buy BTC and/or ETH", in case you didn't know, etherum is an altcoin.
as for your clients not wanting to learn about bitcoin then why are they bothering with it? you might as well invest in anything else and only give them the profit. so as a result you might want to change the whole idea and cut their involvement altogether. for example only sign a contract that obligates you to give them profit per month regardless of what you do with the money!

You are wrong. ETH is an altcoin. Ethereum is the company behind it. - As I explained, I will be buying BTC AND ETH.

"as for your clients not wanting to learn about bitcoin then why are they bothering with it"
The discussion is not about why they should or shouldn't buy btc or their motives for doing so. I am asking the best ways to hold it. The decision to buy has already been made. They don't need to learn about it, because they pay people like me to know about it.

All they care about is the potential for crypto in the future and they like the shrewd people they feel now is a good time to get into it. It's really that simple. They have money to spend and want to buy crypto, why? because I have told them they should.

Quote from: squatter on February 23, 2019, 06:03:12 PM

Quote from: rogerwilko on February 23, 2019, 01:17:39 PM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 23, 2019, 11:49:36 AM

The benefit of the 3rd signature would be that it can stay sealed somewhere for emergencies (your death).
Again, it's 2 of 3. So you can use the 2 signatures in the way you use now and the 3rd is for the case one of the usual signatures gets out of reach.

But who would hold the 3rd co-sign?

If I die (as I have already stated) there is a PoA.

I am leaning more towards a 2 of 3 multisig - but more in case my clients lose their keys or seed words. But that would mean me holding 2 out of the 3 co-signs.

Unless I set up a company specifically for this or have my lawyer be a co-sign for all of my clients too. That way a 2 out of 3 is the best solution maybe.

Cheers for your response. All your points are valid and its what I have been thinking.

Me holding 2 of his co-signs isn't an issue - it just my mentality of people holding their own keys (one of the major benefits of crypto) is in conflict with this option.

If 1 of 3 co-signs is held on a USB in a safety deposit box - it will never need to be sued unless in an emergency. (if I or my client lose their keys)

2of 3 seems the safest and secure option.

using a third party company would defeat the object I think - that's losing control of your keys even marginally.

The amount of btc bought from January's figures would be 56 BTC and February so far would be 17.5btc so I think I will delay it for another month and play around with various options first, but I think you and others and myself have convinced me 2 or 3 is the way to go.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 23, 2019, 11:49:36 AM

Quote from: rogerwilko on February 23, 2019, 11:08:32 AM

Quote from: Pursuer on February 23, 2019, 09:42:20 AM

with the way you are describing your "clients" here it seems to me like you are dealing with a bunch of elderly incapable of making their own decisions while having money they don't know what to do with! which makes me wonder whether they should even be investing in cryptocurrencies in first place!
you see one of the first things about bitcoin is the fact that it gives the person full control and if they give that up then why are they even bothering getting involved with bitcoin? there are less riskier investments out there.

Well my clients (no speech marks required) certainly aren't elderly nor incapable of making their own decisions. Honestly, they don't have the time nor inclination to give a fuck about crypto as you or I would. They are only interested in it from "this is the future of money" POV. They haven't made their millions ( and I do mean millions) sitting around looking at the finer details of something. Do you think they ask me on a daily or weekly basis how I trade for them? No they couldn't give a shit as long as the return is there. That's how these people operate. They PAY PEOPLE TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEM.

Do you honestly think HNWI understands everything they invest in? HINT: THEY DON'T.
That's the whole point. So yes they should be investing in Crypto, why, because I have advised them to.

The discussion isn't about whether my clients should invest in btc or not. It's how I should manage that for them.

I appreciate that you took the time to reply to my post, but I don't think you have grasped it.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 23, 2019, 10:23:37 AM

Quote from: rogerwilko on February 22, 2019, 05:32:45 PM

I would really appreciate any comments/suggestions.

Your idea sounds pretty good, at least from Bitcoin point of view.

Since your customers are not tech people and it's risky to handle the private keys, they can clearly see their funds based on the address, on any block explorer. So you can handle the keys as you think it's best.
Because we talk about others' funds, a solution is 2-of-3 multisig, with key 1 at the owner, key 2 at you and key 3 in your testament. Or, if you are allowed to spend at any time, you can also have a copy of key 3.

Why 2 of 3 multi-sig? What benefit does that have over 2 of 2 multisig? That's just adding an extra layer of effort and complications. Who would be the 3rd co-sign? Its just adding more potential cost and complication. No?

The only benefit of using 2 or 3 that I can think of is in case my client loses his private key or seed words. But that would mean me being the custodian of the 3rd seed words or keys - which isn't problematic to store on a usb in a safety deposit box, but that would effectively give me full control over his wallet. probably not a major issue, but it's not ideal (perhaps)

In that instance, I might as well just hold his coin on a hardware wallet on his behalf. Which again isn't ideal longer term, if I start doing this for multiple clients I have, I will end up owning and looking after a dozen or so hardware wallets for clients - hastag nightmare

Quote from: xWolfx on February 23, 2019, 09:59:13 AM

So far the comments are not understanding your point of view but i do.

The security online is a really tricky subject this days and they are paying you precisely for you to do all the learning and tests so they can be comfortable and just give the money they want to invest. I understand how VIP services work.

I personally don't think that you are on the wrong approach in that aspect since it's the nature of the service you provide, rich people moves different than everyone else and if they are not interested in learning about Bitcoin it's your responsibility to offer them a solution and you seem pretty good at it.

One thing you could do is when they have a determined amount of time(decided by your observations in their reactions with their assets inside Bitcoin or Ethereum) when they kinda notice how that kind of market work you could see if some of them is interested enough in learning and when the time comes, you can tell him/her that they can store a part of their coins inside a hardware wallet if they would like to use it for some transactions and one part for security.

They better know how unstable it is. The whole point of it is for any of them interested in learning more to do it. That is the kind of people with a lot of resources who can bring the market up.

That is just one idea for you to think about it. Your approach even when criticized is extremely good for Bitcoin's future and you better know that you're helping shape that future.

Thanks. I don't understand half of what you have written to be honest, its just words. As I said in the original post MOST clients will NOT be spending the coin, just HODL. I am not sure why I would have a hardware wallet & set up a co-sign wallet. That's just confusing, pointless and unnecessary IMO.

They are NOT going to learn or educate themselves about bitcoin. I am not going to teach them either. For the average Joe bitcoin is too technical, and for a HNWI he really isn't going to be interested in being technical. As I have said, he probably has someone dial numbers on his mobile for him.

Quote from: magneto on February 22, 2019, 11:19:39 PM

Wait - if you are transferring them their BTC by the end of each month, why do you need to hold funds for them? I'm terribly confused.

But if you do need to hold funds for them, I think that they will obviously appreciate control over their funds to the fullest possible extent. Multisig in this instance could certainly work.

I still think that a hardware wallet should be discounted. I don't think that it's that technical intensive given ledger/trezor's intuitive UIs. In this case, you'd only have to worry about sending the BTC to the correct address at the end of each month, instead of actually holding a key in a multisig. They would have full responsibility of securing the BTC which I don't know if they would be comfortable with. Please do correct me if I got your scenario totally wrong.

I don't want to be responsible for their seed words. Plus I need a safety net in case my client ( who isn't technically minded) gets phished or dodgy browser extensions or malicious software on his computer ends up stealing his coin. I know using a hardware wallet its unlikely BUT.. I guess I am saying I don't trust my client to keep his seed words safe for himself and want to make sure there is another step required to move his coin.

he isn't technically minded enough to deal with firmware updates etc etc. One of the big factors for this to work, is to minimise any work required for him. It needs to be simple and straightforward from his perspective, even if its more technical behind the scenes

I have been working with one client for over 5 years, and we have a great trust relationship (and I earn a shit load of money for him and me) I wouldn't want to blow that trust (and him lose money/coin) just because he isn't technically minded enough to understand about keeping his seed words etc safe. (This is the type of guy who has his Black Amex card PIN written on the back of a photo in his wallet !!!!!)

Quote from: pooya87 on February 23, 2019, 03:25:52 AM

So I am hoping I can get some advice for a change.
My "day job" is trading FIAT, not only for myself but also for clients. For the past couple of months, I have been persuading a couple of clients to "invest" in bitcoin and Ether and basically HODL. So the idea is I trade FIAT as normal, at the end of the month, when I would usually transfer the funds to their bank accounts, I buy BTC and/or ETH, instead, and transfer to their wallets.

These aren't small amounts that will be deposited each month, for one client it could be anywhere between 10-20 BTC per month or 350-500 ETH per month, so I need to be able to make sure they are secure. I have thought about hardware wallets (Ledger/ Trezor) which I use myself BUT I just don't think they are the best solution for non-technical people.

So, I would like your opinion on my solution to this.
For bitcoin use a multisig Electrum Wallet. The client holds 1st co-sign part on his computer and I hold the 2nd co-sign on a computer that never links to the internet, so effectively its an ice cold wallet.

For Ether I thought of using GNOSIS for the multisig wallet. To be honest, though I have only played around with this wallet on the Rinkeby testnet, so looking for advice on what people make of it (i,e how secure is it that funds cant be locked like with the Parity Multisig wallet a couple of years ago)

Now the likelihood is one client will only ever need to use the co-sign wallet maybe once per year (he plans to HODL long term) whereas a second client might want to move funds around and have cosigned transactions monthly.

This cosign option seems (in my head) to work equally well for both clients.

I already have a PoA (power of attorney) if anything happens to me, they can get their funds back, so I can just add a codicil covering the Private Keys etc - and have those stored in a Safety Deposit Box, so I am not worried about that. I want your opinion on the method I am looking to implement and whether you think its a good option.

Persuading traditionally conservative clients to dip their toe in the crypto water, has/is a hard uphill struggle even though there are huge benefits for them, I just want to make sure I have covered all the bases and I am offering them a solution that is the "best in breed"

Obviously, its something I can charge my clients for, but that's not a motivating factor,, it's about keeping my clients BTC/ETH secure.

I would really appreciate any comments/suggestions.