Storing cyrpto for clients

[buwaytress]

There's no ideal situation here.

You can do 2-of-2 and hope that your client never loses their key/seed, but if they lose them, the money is gone.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold two keys (in separate physical locations to prevent compromise) and your client holds one, but this effectively places the funds in your sole custody. That raises liability issues if the funds are ever stolen.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold one key and your client holds two (in separate physical locations) but again, this opens the possibility that your client has his keys/seeds compromised.

Whatever you do, I would avoid any liability in case things ever go awry. You don't want to be on the hook for a 20 BTC loss.

You could also consider an institutional custody service like Bitgo. I'm not sure exactly how their setup and pricing works but lots of services use them for multi-sig storage.

This was my point and OP I hope you pay attention to this. Forget all the complexities of multisig and all the litigation risk plus extra vulnerabilities of custodial service (meaning, you should never, ever take care of their bitcoin for them).

You've repeated it that you only want to manage it for them, and advising them to hold. So a simple hardware wallet, seeds owned only by them. You can get them to store the seed in their safe/vault/wherever they store their most precious thing. They can even write it down along with their Amex for all you should care, that is their choice and their risk. Tell them of their responsibilities to seek their own custodial services if they don't trust themselves.

You simply don't want liability, why spoil a great and profitable relationship?

Hardware wallet. You know the address, that's all you need to manage and report. Good luck!

[pooya87]

you don't need to store cryptocurrencies "for" clients because unlike fiat, transferring cryptos is easier, fast and a lot cheaper. and that would be also a lot safer. since you already claim it is to "buy and hold" then you must ask for their addresses and pay them right away. then it is their responsibility to learn how to properly secure their coins.
if i were you i would worry about more important matters such as getting involved with altcoins that can get dumped hard since they are pump and dumps even though they may seem like a big deal!

Thanks for the response but where in my post does it mention other altcoins?  I am not interested in shitcoins.  Seriously though, my client really isn't interested in learning about bitcoin - that's why I made my post.

if your first paragraph when you say "I buy BTC and/or ETH", in case you didn't know, etherum is an altcoin.
as for your clients not wanting to learn about bitcoin then why are they bothering with it? you might as well invest in anything else and only give them the profit. so as a result you might want to change the whole idea and cut their involvement altogether. for example only sign a contract that obligates you to give them profit per month regardless of what you do with the money!

[rogerwilko]

The benefit of the 3rd signature would be that it can stay sealed somewhere for emergencies (your death).
Again, it's 2 of 3. So you can use the 2 signatures in the way you use now and the 3rd is for the case one of the usual signatures gets out of reach.

But who would hold the 3rd co-sign?

If I die (as I have already stated) there is a PoA.

I am leaning more towards a 2 of 3 multisig - but more in case my clients lose their keys or seed words.  But that would mean me holding 2 out of the 3 co-signs. 

Unless I set up a company specifically for this or have my lawyer be a co-sign for all of my clients too. That way a 2 out of 3 is the best solution maybe.

There's no ideal situation here.

You can do 2-of-2 and hope that your client never loses their key/seed, but if they lose them, the money is gone.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold two keys (in separate physical locations to prevent compromise) and your client holds one, but this effectively places the funds in your sole custody. That raises liability issues if the funds are ever stolen.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold one key and your client holds two (in separate physical locations) but again, this opens the possibility that your client has his keys/seeds compromised.

Whatever you do, I would avoid any liability in case things ever go awry. You don't want to be on the hook for a 20 BTC loss.

You could also consider an institutional custody service like Bitgo. I'm not sure exactly how their setup and pricing works but lots of services use them for multi-sig storage.

Cheers for your response.  All your points are valid and its what I have been thinking.

Me holding 2 of his co-signs isn't an issue - it just my mentality of people holding their own keys (one of the major benefits of crypto) is in conflict with this option.

If 1 of 3 co-signs is held on a USB in a safety deposit box - it will never need to be sued unless in an emergency. (if I or my client lose their keys)

2of 3 seems the safest and secure option.

using a third party company would defeat the object I think - that's losing control of your keys even marginally.

 The amount of btc bought from January's figures would be 56 BTC and February so far would be 17.5btc  so I think I will delay it for another month and play around with various options first, but I think you and others and myself have convinced me 2 or 3 is the way to go.

[rogerwilko]

you don't need to store cryptocurrencies "for" clients because unlike fiat, transferring cryptos is easier, fast and a lot cheaper. and that would be also a lot safer. since you already claim it is to "buy and hold" then you must ask for their addresses and pay them right away. then it is their responsibility to learn how to properly secure their coins.
if i were you i would worry about more important matters such as getting involved with altcoins that can get dumped hard since they are pump and dumps even though they may seem like a big deal!

Thanks for the response but where in my post does it mention other altcoins?  I am not interested in shitcoins.  Seriously though, my client really isn't interested in learning about bitcoin - that's why I made my post.

if your first paragraph when you say "I buy BTC and/or ETH", in case you didn't know, etherum is an altcoin.
as for your clients not wanting to learn about bitcoin then why are they bothering with it? you might as well invest in anything else and only give them the profit. so as a result you might want to change the whole idea and cut their involvement altogether. for example only sign a contract that obligates you to give them profit per month regardless of what you do with the money!

You are wrong.  ETH is an altcoin.  Ethereum is the company behind it.   - As I explained, I will be buying BTC AND ETH.

"as for your clients not wanting to learn about bitcoin then why are they bothering with it"  
  The discussion is not about why they should or shouldn't buy btc or their motives for doing so.  I am asking the best ways to hold it.  The decision to buy has already been made.  They don't need to learn about it, because they pay people like me to know about it.

All they care about is the potential for crypto in the future and they like the shrewd people they feel now is a good time to get into it. It's really that simple.  They have money to spend and want to buy crypto, why?  because I have told them they should.

[rogerwilko]

There's no ideal situation here.

You can do 2-of-2 and hope that your client never loses their key/seed, but if they lose them, the money is gone.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold two keys (in separate physical locations to prevent compromise) and your client holds one, but this effectively places the funds in your sole custody. That raises liability issues if the funds are ever stolen.

You can do 2-of-3 where you hold one key and your client holds two (in separate physical locations) but again, this opens the possibility that your client has his keys/seeds compromised.

Whatever you do, I would avoid any liability in case things ever go awry. You don't want to be on the hook for a 20 BTC loss.

You could also consider an institutional custody service like Bitgo. I'm not sure exactly how their setup and pricing works but lots of services use them for multi-sig storage.

This was my point and OP I hope you pay attention to this. Forget all the complexities of multisig and all the litigation risk plus extra vulnerabilities of custodial service (meaning, you should never, ever take care of their bitcoin for them).

You've repeated it that you only want to manage it for them, and advising them to hold. So a simple hardware wallet, seeds owned only by them. You can get them to store the seed in their safe/vault/wherever they store their most precious thing. They can even write it down along with their Amex for all you should care, that is their choice and their risk. Tell them of their responsibilities to seek their own custodial services if they don't trust themselves.

You simply don't want liability, why spoil a great and profitable relationship?

Hardware wallet. You know the address, that's all you need to manage and report. Good luck!

Oh I am paying attention to the posts are you?
As I have already said, a hardware wallet is not good enough.

Think of it like this.  I set up my cleint with a hardware wallet. At the end of February, I convert Jan & Feb profits to BTC.  So currently it will be about 73.5BTC.

Client gets phished/scammed/ wrote his seed words somewhere stupid.

BOOM thats 73BTC lost.  Brilliant.

So a hardware wallet is NOT good enough for this.


"Tell them of their responsibilities to seek their own custodial services if they don't trust themselves." Thats what he is paying me to do!

[Kakmakr]

First of all, it takes a huge pair of balls to do this. I know there are some clueless investors out there, that wants to dip their toes into Crypto currencies, but they are too scared, because they do not know how to secure these coins. <You tapped into a huge market, so kudos for that.> 

My advice will be to go for some hardware wallet, which makes things a lot less difficult. <The owner of the hardware wallet retains the Seed and you keep a copy, just in case something happens with their device or if they lose the Seed.>

The Ledger Nano supports most popular Alt coins, so you should be covered. 

[rogerwilko]

First of all, it takes a huge pair of balls to do this. I know there are some clueless investors out there, that wants to dip their toes into Crypto currencies, but they are too scared, because they do not know how to secure these coins. <You tapped into a huge market, so kudos for that.> 

My advice will be to go for some hardware wallet, which makes things a lot less difficult. <The owner of the hardware wallet retains the Seed and you keep a copy, just in case something happens with their device or if they lose the Seed.>

The Ledger Nano supports most popular Alt coins, so you should be covered. 

As I have already said, a hardware wallet is not good enough.

Think of it like this.  I set up my client with a hardware wallet. At the end of February, I convert Jan & Feb profits to BTC.  So currently it will be about 73.5BTC.

The client gets phished/scammed/ wrote his seed words somewhere stupid.

BOOM that's 73BTC lost.  Brilliant.

[Viceroy]

First of all, great idea. We need more proactive people like you to spread crypto. Why you care though? You just do what you do, and from what I read I got the idea you understand perfectly well your aims, which is awesome.

[rogerwilko]

First of all, great idea. We need more proactive people like you to spread crypto. Why you care though? You just do what you do, and from what I read I got the idea you understand perfectly well your aims, which is awesome.

Thanks Buddy.  Doing my bit to convince a few people about bitcoin ;-)

[talkbitcoin]

may i ask what your plans on about the big losses that this kind of investment is going to give you and since you are doing it for other people, them too?
for example if you started last year and bought bitcoin and ethereum as you are saying in OP, you would have lost about 70% in bitcoin and more than 96% in ethereum.

[rogerwilko]

may i ask what your plans on about the big losses that this kind of investment is going to give you and since you are doing it for other people, them too?
for example if you started last year and bought bitcoin and ethereum as you are saying in OP, you would have lost about 70% in bitcoin and more than 96% in ethereum.

Well, I am not buying retrospectively.  What has happened in the past is irrelevant.  If you base your buying decisions on what has happened in the past, then good luck - because you are doomed to fail.

My clients are in this for the LONG RUN, this is 5 to 10 year plans. 

BTC & ETH are the only 2 I and my clients are interested in as the rest I just see a shitcoins - no better than the penny stock bubbles of the 1980's and 1990's and then all the dotcom companies of the naugthies.

This isn't something I have just written on the back of a fag packet "oh let's throw a few hundred thousand euro a month into crypto"

From a BTC and ETH point of view, I have been involved/had an interest for a few years.

[btyco]

Force your clients to get a hardware wallet and then give you the public address. It is easy for you to deposit the funds and track it on explorer, while they hold the keys and the physical wallet

[rogerwilko]

Force your clients to get a hardware wallet and then give you the public address. It is easy for you to deposit the funds and track it on explorer, while they hold the keys and the physical wallet

Whilst I appreciate you taking the time to reply, you haven't actually read my original post or subsequent posts. For the umpteenth time a hardware wallet is NOT a good enough solution.

[Whosdaddy]

I don’t think it is advisable to hold their currency for them, it is better to open an account for them and give them access to the platform so they can be in full control and make them understand fully the operation and security, though you will still have access to the account pending the time your contract with them ends, I once did this with someone I introduced to BTC, I bought BTC for them when it was high which was in my personal wallet but by the time BTC fell, they became impatient and had to request for their full money back from me which I could not provide since I was not the one controlling the market, I tried explaining but it got worse till I was sued for it, first question I was asked at the law firm was if they had access to their BTC personally as at the time I bought it for them which I said NO and that is how I lost the case because it looks as if he borrowed the money which was time for me to pay back. If you still insist on holding though, I think exodus wallet is still more secured.

[Razerglass]

Force your clients to get a hardware wallet and then give you the public address. It is easy for you to deposit the funds and track it on explorer, while they hold the keys and the physical wallet

Whilst I appreciate you taking the time to reply, you haven't actually read my original post or subsequent posts. For the umpteenth time a hardware wallet is NOT a good enough solution.

I can't understand why you refuse to use hardware crypto wallets for your own or clients' safety. Maybe,you have no idea how safe is to use this wallets or your imagination about hardware wallets is limited. Just give it a try and you will not regret it.

[rogerwilko]

[/quote]

I can't understand why you refuse to use hardware crypto wallets for your own or clients' safety. Maybe,you have no idea how safe is to use this wallets or your imagination about hardware wallets is limited. Just give it a try and you will not regret it.
[/quote]

Well if you actually READ my original post and the subsequent replies you wouldn't continue asking a stupid question that has been answered several times. I fully understand hardware wallets.

I am convinced people only reply to earn hero points without actually having anything to say that is relevant. 

[rogerwilko]

I don’t think it is advisable to hold their currency for them, it is better to open an account for them and give them access to the platform so they can be in full control and make them understand fully the operation and security, though you will still have access to the account pending the time your contract with them ends, I once did this with someone I introduced to BTC, I bought BTC for them when it was high which was in my personal wallet but by the time BTC fell, they became impatient and had to request for their full money back from me which I could not provide since I was not the one controlling the market, I tried explaining but it got worse till I was sued for it, first question I was asked at the law firm was if they had access to their BTC personally as at the time I bought it for them which I said NO and that is how I lost the case because it looks as if he borrowed the money which was time for me to pay back. If you still insist on holding though, I think exodus wallet is still more secured.

I can 100% promise you are situations are not alike.  If you actually took the time to read my original post and the subsequent posts you wouldn't have wasted your time writing nonsense which may have enabled you to spend your time replying with something of value.

[teilwalL05]

I really think you are technically minded enough to sort out your problem and you already said that you had been using many possible wallets for your client which is then correct because I really think we should have multiple wallets if we would want to hold for more coins than we can ever carry, And next is having a 3rd party that both of you and your clients trust, This will be the sole purpose of it because you need someone to sure verify and secure your wallet and an attorney is simply there for the legal agreement you and your clients will have, And lastly, In my opinion, I think you can then use regular wallets for your convenience and I think that even though there is a strong security wallet that you may found there is still a possibility that it may still compromise because of the upgrading technology we have hackers may find themselves upgrading as well.

[cryptokingdom]

Using hardware wallet is the best especially if the crypto is for long term. I will advise you to spend time in educating your client about cryptocurrency and all the risk involve, tell them the do's and don'ts when keeping cryptocurrency.

[rogerwilko]

Using hardware wallet is the best especially if the crypto is for long term. I will advise you to spend time in educating your client about cryptocurrency and all the risk involve, tell them the do's and don'ts when keeping cryptocurrency.

For GODS SAKE - pleased read posts before you comment.  This forum is full of people who can't read posts but feel the need to comment just to make themselves feel knowledgable.