You make it sound as if these services wouldn't come about except thru government. Government is just people with special privileges and authority. If there is a market for trash collection, sewer systems, utilities, fire, protection and health related issues, don't you think some enterprising individual(s) would attempt to create a market?

Why does one have to have a monopoly to make it all happen? What do you think is so magical about your government? They don't have any more pixie dust than you. Oh wait, they don't have pixie dust, it was Kool Aid I was thinking of. I wouldn't drink too much of that though. You never can tell what they put in that stuff.

Please elaborate on how a voluntary money material system would starve and freeze anybody. I mean in a direct sense of the word. Why would any market of free people contracting for goods and services (or monetary equivalents) in a uncoercive way result in the death or starvation of anybody?

Libertarianism is escape from thieves, enslavers and murderers.

Just a little more technically accurate.

And yet so true. I'll accept any cliche that's true. Kinda rolls off the tongue with a certain ring to it.

Making something of my own by using the knowledge that I've obtained requires the knowledge of my forebears, the shoulders they have stood upon, and those that came before them, ad infinitum. It is impossible to create something without having relied upon someone else for that knowledge. And if not from them, then from your own observations of nature. You can't own an observation, or a law of physics, or any intangible (idea or concept). You can't control an intangible without effecting the physical and tangible to do it, and if that tangible object doesn't belong to you, it belongs to somebody else.

You can't divorce the idea or pattern from the physical matter to which it is attached without destroying the concept of divisible and easily observable material boundaries by which physical ownership is defined; as all things ownable, are physical. Attempting to own a pattern or composition is tantamount to surreptitiously acquiring property not in your possession. Intellectual property has no physical boundaries like ordinary physical property does.

IP enforcement is nothing more than the right to commit theft and censorship, and in the extreme, bodily imprisonment. That is the end result every time. You are merely giving the right to some people to control the property and speech of others and thus ultimately their person, because of the composition and patterns of physical material matter resembling yours. Last I checked that's called slavery. Clandestine and indirect slavery, but slavery nonetheless.

If you have information and I have the same information, it is not theft. I have not taken something of yours because I merely know about it, or because I imprint it's pattern onto objects in my possession. I can only take a physical thing. There is nothing to take if it's not physical.

$800 / rig is the current price or equivalent BTC.

There should be no monopoly on money creation. Bring all comers. Let the market decide. If there's fraud, prosecute otherwise let everybody decide what they want to use.

My guess would be silver, gold and some P2P currency will become prominent. But I'd be just guessing. I personally would like to see an energy currency of some sort (oil, NG, food).

Not entirely accurate. If you voted to misappropriate or expropriate the property of others (taxation, wealth distribution, welfare programs, debasing legal tender currencies), I still get to complain because you stole from me.

To wit, don't vote to take stuff that isn't yours. That's gangster behavior.

No not written in the stars nor anywhere else for that matter, at least not from the perspective of what is, as opposed to what ought to be. All I'm saying is your logic is broken. Laws can be anything, of course. But if you want to make them consistent and logical, you wouldn't say half the things you do.

A right is an is/ought construction. Using logic helps make sense of what is vs. what ought to be. No logic, makes for a big mess because one rule violates another to the advantage of one person over another. Creating advantages and disadvantages creates classes of persons, and the longer you have one class with greater privilege and authority over another, you will eventually produce monolithic power concentrated into the hands of the few. This is what most (if not all) governments do that don't protect the rights of the individual.

Power is a great temptation when wielded by the few against the many in an involuntarily way (monopoly privileges). I like the freedom of choice to do what one wants with oneself and one's things as long as it doesn't interfere with the supremacy of others to do the same with theirs. Why is that such a bad thing? Freedom is a bad thing? Let me think about this for a moment... I don't get you Hawker. I really don't.

Am I to assume there is no such thing as logic then? If logic is opinion, then just about anything could be construed as opinion (excepting actual physics). Can we not agree, based on the basic rules of logic, that your logic is fallible?

And yes the right to security on one's own property is contradicted by eminent domain which is why it is capricious and should be done away with. Duh.

Ditto. Looks like Hawker's actually getting somewhere. Maybe he should look up the definition of impose.

Everybody profits from other people's work. Where do you think their or your knowledge came from? A vacuum? Everything everybody learns, mimics, copies, or observes is either going to come from somebody that told them, taught them, or they observed from nature.

In which case, everybody living is "stealing" from everybody all the time and everybody should be in jail. Lovely logic. Give it up Hawker, your logic has failed you. Physical property and intellectual property conflict in their implementation. They are logically inconsistent.

Physical property: Control over physical material matter to the exclusion of all other persons. To wit, physical material matter can only be in one place at any one point in time under the dominion of that person.

Intellectual property: Control over patterns and compositions of physical material matter contained in all physical property owned or otherwise (by you and others). This equates to ownership of physical matter due to its composition and characteristics, regardless of the current physical possession of the owner.

Intellectual property is in constant conflict with physical property. IP and PP are logically inconsistent. Any law that conflicts with another law, is either not a law, or the other law with which it is incompatible, must be abolished.

A good example would be slavery. I know you don't like the analogy, but it works well. If one human can own another human, then skin color should be irrelevant, in which case blacks could own whites and vice versa. The only determining factor here now is superior force or majority rule - which is the same.

If you have any examples of irreducible property issues, I'd be interested in hearing them. The definition of 5) is further modified by 6.2) and 6.3) which would include the "space", or less dense PMM, embordered by more dense PMM. I'd say there is no such thing as a vacuum, just less dense PMM, which if controlled in some reasonably exclusive manner, would make it yours. Density is a non issue I think.

Your example of satellite orbits should be explained by 6.1. Which is to say, you could attempt to claim the entire universe (or orbital paths), but by mere proclamation that wouldn't necessarily make it property. If you can't physically occupy it yet, or you haven't occupied it yet, you haven't homesteaded it, so it's up for grabs by somebody clever enough to figure out the physical problem of acquiring it.

To wit, if the satellite orbit had never been occupied before, your attempt at trading/exchanging it would be a partial farce, or at least not logically enforceable in a court of law, because you haven't occupied that "space" yet to make it yours. That's not to say you couldn't trade that space with anybody else in any legally contractual way, just that if you didn't occupy it first and somebody else did, I don't think you have a case (or a leg) to stand on.

I've always felt some squeamishness when it came to homesteading and property abandonment definitions. I'd like to hear some competing opinions on the matter if you've got the stomach for it.

Would you vet the following for me? I'm curious about your opinion on the matter.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38854.msg485594#msg485594

I guess I better qualify the pricing structure. Any posted price in BTC is good for about 30 minutes given the volatility in the $/bitcoin price (this in case of a crash in the price). I wouldn't want to jilt anybody including myself. If past is prologue... I just want to cover my butt. I'm looking for about a $820 USD/rig cost, or thereabouts.

Notwithstanding, I would still take any suggested offers.

Hawker has to maintain that society trumps the individual or he loses consistency in his argument, which is woefully illogical to begin with. His argument is that there are no rights of the individual except those bestowed upon him by his superiors, or a majority, which is proximally the same from a force point of view, as somebody has to execute the laws (and by doing so gains special privilege and authority, if via a monopoly).

To say society achieves this, of course makes no sense, since a person or individual had to create the law to begin with, the difference being he has gained a majority of opinion to "strengthen" his position. This leaves gaping holes in what can be right and wrong from an opinion standpoint. You could bring back slavery, ethnic cleansing, eminent domain (oh wait we already do that) etc.

All of it is logically inconsistent from an is/ought point of view, but he doesn't care about that. Assuming the negative rights of the NAP as an axiom, his "societal rights" edicts fall apart fairly quickly, but then being logical was never his strong suit.

This an entire functional rig for the current price of 280 BTC. It's vetted and ready to go. I think it's worth more than parted out.

Anybody?

Just looking for that true blue bitcoin believer, I guess.

I consider reasonable offers. I might even part out. I'm all ears.

Last I checked 5830's were going for $129+
Mobo's were $100+.
PSU's were $140+.
Riser cards $8+.
RAM $10+.
CPU $40+.

Total: $943 w/o case setup.

You must get your equipment cheap. Name a price.