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2341  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 30, 2014, 08:03:21 AM
Centralization remains an issue

That's why PoW provides a 51% mechanism.
It works both ways, any 51% attack can be 51% attacked.

Don't make me laugh.  You think you can 51% the government?  lol
2342  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 29, 2014, 04:21:31 AM
I'd rather add some PoS checkpoints on top of bitcoin

I doubt that ever happens.
2343  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 29, 2014, 04:08:03 AM

Protection against 51% attacks is a concern.

51% mechanism is what allows to challenge the status quo, thus enabling competition for power.
Just sitting on your money in PoW does't give you control over the system, just engaging in the competition for control doesn't bring you money as mining is normally a break-even game. Thus money and control become orthogonal, which results in a dynamic system without asymptotes. In PoS you get both in a nice single package, which saturates fairly quickly.

Hybrid systems are more tricky beasts, thus they need to be studied closely. I'm concerned that saturation in PoS aspect of the hybrid will at some point begin to negatively influence the competition on PoW side.

51% PoW mechanism is what allows malicious agents to challenge the legitimate miners, thus overpowering them via a hashpower coup d'etat.

Do you really think that the legitimate miners in Bitcoin can prevent a government from forcing their rules on the Bitcoin network?  Mind you, the NSA had a $10.7 Billion USD budget in 2013.  The only way to prevent such actions from external actors is via PoS.

For those unaware, there have been some serious
hybrid PoW/PoS proposals for Bitcoin, which you can find here:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake

If you are interested in using PoW as a distribution mechanism and PoS as a security mechanism, NXT's monetary system offers such a solution.
2344  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 28, 2014, 06:55:23 PM
Bitcoin will either never change to PoS or such a change won't occur till 2024 and beyond.

I suggest you gamble all you want with PoS. Seem like you are a Nxt proponent.... that currency is dying right now if you haven't noticed. Dropped from spot 5 to 8 in market cap and soon to be overtaken by Bitcoin assets like Counterparty! Ethereum, Counterparty and possibly Storj will likely overtake Nxt in 2016, expect it will drop further in market cap.

You just don't get it do you?  Bitcoin is becoming more centralized as time goes on.  Mining is becoming increasingly corporatized.  The users of Bitcoin are separated from the security of the chain.  This is against everything Satoshi wanted in a currency.  The goal of Bitcoin was to place the monetary power back in the hands of the people.  Bitcoin has evolved into the monster it was meant to replace.

You can criticize NXT's initial distribution and claim it is "centralized" because initially the currency was held by 73 individuals, but at the end of the day PoW vs PoS argument comes down to trust.

Do you trust external agents not to overpower BTC's hashpower?  Only a fool would believe that a government doesn't have the resources to control Bitcoin.  The bitcoin hashpower held by individual people (not corporations or pools), who are legitimately concerned with securing the chain and not merely profits, will never be enough to prevent an attack on BTC.  The BTC chain might not be destroyed by these "attackers" but altered or restricted.  What if a government decided to freeze certain accounts?  They could easily coerce the corporate and pool miners to enact these changes.  The individual miners and currency users would be helpless to stop it.

Do you trust that the original NXT stakeholders are actually individuals committed to decentralization and continuing the legacy of bitcoin?  Seeing that the NXT IPO drew very little attention, I figure that the original stakeholders are actual individuals and not corporations, bankers, private equity or governments.  That means the chain was originally secured by individuals who were drawn to the movement by the original ideals of Bitcoin.  Since the start of NXT, the holders have obviously changed.  A good portion of the original stakeholders have sold out.  Who did they sell to?  Do you think they sold to the corporations, bankers, PE and governments?  I'm sure some did, but does this allow for these entities to attack the chain?  If together and working in concert these groups acquired over 500 million NXT, then yes.  If not though, the chain is secured by decentralized individuals.  The more individuals that join NXT the stronger and more resistant to attack it becomes.  Soon it becomes extremely difficult to purchase enough stake to attack without driving up the price to a ridiculous amount and it becomes equally difficult to coerce enough individuals.  When NXT forms its economic cluster, the stake requirements to attack will rise to 90%.  This makes acquiring the required stake to launch an attack practically impossible especially if you consider that some stakeholders will just never sell.

So, do you trust external agents to not to overpower BTC's hashpower or do you trust that NXT's stakeholders are actually legitimate individuals?

It seems that no one could come up with a valid counterargument to my statement.  When all you get are responses like this:

This thread clearly shows how bored people are these days, trying to generate value by talking  Grin

You know you hit the nail on the head.

It is unfortunate that some individuals who are obviously invested in Bitcoin denounce a cryptoplatform like NXT which was born out of the Bitcoin movement.  They act if as though there weren't exchanges to sell their BTC for NXT and that NXT is a private club which they cannot join.  It looks to others as if they are upset that they didn't invest in NXT earlier.  These peoples' jealousy towards NXT clouds their judgment and makes them fail to see that NXT is simply a continuation of the original Bitcoin movement.  The people who founded NXT were originally Bitcoiners and shared their hopes and aspirations for a decentralized economy controlled by the people.

Some Bitcoiners claim that NXT is trying to destroy decentralization.  We are not.  The truth is we are trying to save and uphold the ideals of the original movement.  Most miners no longer care about decentralization; they only care about profits.  The ability of a currency holder to secure his investment is at the very core of decentralization.  Allowing external actors to infringe upon a currency holder's right to secure their chain results in the currency no longer being decentralized.  A system must be designed to resist external actors if a currency is to remain autonomous.

BCNext (BitCoinNext) created NXT not to undermine Bitcoin, but to continue its legacy.  We share the same cause.  We are allies in the same fight.

Long live decentralization!  Power to the people!
2345  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 28, 2014, 04:43:27 AM
Bitcoin will either never change to PoS or such a change won't occur till 2024 and beyond.

I suggest you gamble all you want with PoS. Seem like you are a Nxt proponent.... that currency is dying right now if you haven't noticed. Dropped from spot 5 to 8 in market cap and soon to be overtaken by Bitcoin assets like Counterparty! Ethereum, Counterparty and possibly Storj will likely overtake Nxt in 2016, expect it will drop further in market cap.

You just don't get it do you?  Bitcoin is becoming more centralized as time goes on.  Mining is becoming increasingly corporatized.  The users of Bitcoin are separated from the security of the chain.  This is against everything Satoshi wanted in a currency.  The goal of Bitcoin was to place the monetary power back in the hands of the people.  Bitcoin has evolved into the monster it was meant to replace.

You can criticize NXT's initial distribution and claim it is "centralized" because initially the currency was held by 73 individuals, but at the end of the day PoW vs PoS argument comes down to trust.

Do you trust external agents not to overpower BTC's hashpower?  Only a fool would believe that a government doesn't have the resources to control Bitcoin.  The bitcoin hashpower held by individual people (not corporations or pools), who are legitimately concerned with securing the chain and not merely profits, will never be enough to prevent an attack on BTC.  The BTC chain might not be destroyed by these "attackers" but altered or restricted.  What if a government decided to freeze certain accounts?  They could easily coerce the corporate and pool miners to enact these changes.  The individual miners and currency users would be helpless to stop it.

Do you trust that the original NXT stakeholders are actually individuals committed to decentralization and continuing the legacy of bitcoin?  Seeing that the NXT IPO drew very little attention, I figure that the original stakeholders are actual individuals and not corporations, bankers, private equity or governments.  That means the chain was originally secured by individuals who were drawn to the movement by the original ideals of Bitcoin.  Since the start of NXT, the holders have obviously changed.  A good portion of the original stakeholders have sold out.  Who did they sell to?  Do you think they sold to the corporations, bankers, PE and governments?  I'm sure some did, but does this allow for these entities to attack the chain?  If together and working in concert these groups acquired over 500 million NXT, then yes.  If not though, the chain is secured by decentralized individuals.  The more individuals that join NXT the stronger and more resistant to attack it becomes.  Soon it becomes extremely difficult to purchase enough stake to attack without driving up the price to a ridiculous amount and it becomes equally difficult to coerce enough individuals.  When NXT forms its economic cluster, the stake requirements to attack will rise to 90%.  This makes acquiring the required stake to launch an attack practically impossible especially if you consider that some stakeholders will just never sell.

So, do you trust external agents to not to overpower BTC's hashpower or do you trust that NXT's stakeholders are actually legitimate individuals?
2346  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 09:45:22 AM
PoS coins have value because the marketplace dictates so based upon both utility and speculation.

This is mostly true and why I am a big fan of PoS coins. I think every Central Bank should have one.

Fiat really is an archaic form of PoS.  Centralization also has advantages over decentralization. Decentralization is very costly and inefficient.

How is PoS a form of fiat?  The government tells me that I have to use NXT and assigns a value to it?

Decentralization is only "costly and inefficient" in the constructs of PoW.

They already own Bitcoin.  Why not PoS coins too?

Ohh goodness, they really should bring back the rule of sand boxing newbie accounts . You are ignored my friend.

Uh Oh... I spoke the unspeakable truth.
2347  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 09:37:10 AM
No. The supply was fixed in 2009.

You misplaced plans and their realization.
Who's plans were misplaced and where were they supposed to be?

The price of BTC reflects the current float not the anticipated max 21 million Bitcoin limit.

PoS coins have value because the marketplace dictates so based upon both utility and speculation.

This is mostly true and why I am a big fan of PoS coins. I think every Central Bank should have one.

They already own Bitcoin.  Why not PoS coins too?
2348  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 08:46:51 AM
To control the majority of hash power, you must put real resources and might still fail due to slow in movement, it is much more difficult than controlling a few stake holders. Imagine that once bitcoin is becoming POS, then top 10 stake holders will immediately enter the watch list of CIA

Money can change ownership much quicker than mining rigs. It's much easier to find a mining farm if you want to control Bitcoin (hint - it consumes a lot of electricity).

PoS currencies naturally decentralize as more and more users join the economy.  This makes it increasingly harder to control a certain percentage of the stake because it requires you to control an ever increasing amount of people.

PoW currencies naturally centralize around large mining groups/corporations as the economies of scale push out smaller miners.  This makes it increasingly easier to control a certain percentage of the hashpower because it requires you to control an ever decreasing amount of miners.
2349  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 08:39:57 AM
Don't forget bitcoin gets a lot weaker at every halving.
Good luck having your wealth in a POW coin with inflation below 2%.

Define "weaker" in your suggested context and provide historical evidence to support this claim.

He means that if the price of Bitcoin doesn't double at every halving then the security of the chain will decrease proportionally with decreasing mining ROI.
2350  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 08:32:45 AM
It is not wasteful, it is a must. You can't create money out of thin air like fiat money, that kind of scam must stop, this is the point of bitcoin

Doesn't Bitcoin do the same - creates money out of thin air? Why the current reward is 25 BTC instead of 17.82 BTC?

Just like digging out gold, it seems the labor wasted are unnecessary, but it does solve the origin of value problem: The man who create money must pay fair price to get it, otherwise everyone will be just creating money and no one will be working

A currency's value isn't defined by how it was created, but it is defined by its utility to the currency user.

I fail to see your logic of "the man who create money must pay fair price to get it".  That is a subjective statement.  A "fair price" is defined by what the market is willing to pay vs the perceived utility of the item being sold.
2351  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 08:25:05 AM
So you really think majority of hash power having full control of the protocol is better then stake holders leading the coin development? Are you serious?

To control the majority of hash power, you must put real resources and might still fail due to slow in movement, it is much more difficult than controlling a few stake holders. Imagine that once bitcoin is becoming POS, then top 10 stake holders will immediately enter the watch list of CIA

To control the majority of stake, you must put real resources behind coercing majority of stakeholders and might still fail due to slow in movement, it is much more difficult than controlling a few mining pools.  Imagine that once bitcoin is becoming POOLED, then top 10 pools will immediately enter the watch list of CIA

PoW hash rate domination are all temporary and can be changed quickly, we have seen many times old hash rate king been knocked down by new mining pools/farms



Enjoy your new masters.

This is for PoS coin stake holders Cheesy

Are you telling me that you don't think the NSA could destroy Bitcoin right now if it wanted to?  I hope you aren't this naive.  You don't really think they spend $80,000 on a toilet seat and $50,000 on a hammer now do you?
2352  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 08:14:11 AM
People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems.

More and more Bitcoin owners are starting looking for alternatives to wasteful PoW, this is the point of this discussion.

It is not wasteful, it is a must. You can't create money out of thin air like fiat money, that kind of scam must stop, this is the point of bitcoin

The point of bitcoin was to liberate the monetary system from centralized powers (aka the central bankers).  PoS and PoW currencies derive their value from their ability to allow people to escape from centralized monetary systems.  Once a cryptocurrency fails to provide this decentralization and becomes prone to centralization like BTC, the cryptocurrency loses its original value proposition.
2353  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: December 27, 2014, 07:59:41 AM
PoW hash rate domination are all temporary and can be changed quickly, we have seen many times old hash rate king been knocked down by new mining pools/farms



Enjoy your new masters.
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