Proof of stake mining of bicoin

[LeChatNoir]

POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can do this because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=848881.0

Point 7

[Come-from-Beyond]

POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can have value without production cost, because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

Then http://coinmarketcap.com/ gives us incorrect information... or you are just wrong.

[Come-from-Beyond]

I can't wait to sell my newly forked coins to some lunatic and buy actual bitcoins with the proceeds!

I hate to be a wet blanket but I have to inform you that the fork will be done in a manner that won't let you to have both bitcoins - old-skool and new ones.

[yumei]

Unfortunatly a lot of guys here are already involved in asic mining and they have own interests while argueing pointless contra POS:

POS=no production cost=no value
If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

So when having costs for producing "something", this "something" will automatically get a value?
We are not even talking about human ressource, it isonly a asic-miner standing in a datacenter and wasting energy.
In my opinion this is nonsense, you won´t find such behaviour anywhere in the economy.

POS has the great advantage of decentralising the bitcoin system again, a lot of more nodes will be available.
Anyway I would not stop mining completely, but for example the mining reward could be dropped strongly from the next reward halving and instead POS rewarding could be introduced.

IT WILL NOT HARM THE REPUTATION OF BITCOINS AT ALL BUT STABILISE THE PRICE DRAMATICALLY.

If we could do a community vote it would be great.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Next time use culture agnostic memes, please. Not everyone lives in the USA.

[J. J. Phillips]

I can't wait to sell my newly forked coins to some lunatic and buy actual bitcoins with the proceeds!

I hate to be a wet blanket but I have to inform you that the fork will be done in a manner that won't let you to have both bitcoins - old-skool and new ones.

Then you and I were talking about two different ideas.

Someone should just fork bitcoinPOS from bitcoin, including forking the block chain. Both have the same starting base and then everytime someone starts another "Why doesn't bitcoin use POS?" thread someone else can respond: there's already a version that does, and you already have bitcoins there.

I really might do this, just out of annoyance with the same thread being posted over and over and over. I don't have a strong opinion on POW vs. POS. It's more that I'm annoyed that people don't just reply to the hundreds of threads on this that already exist rather than start a new one.

[J. J. Phillips]

Wow. I've never seen this thread before. What an original idea!

Would someone, for the love of all things holy, please fork Bitcoin to PoS so we can put a stop to these endless discussions about which is better.

PLEASE FORK IT! I can't wait to sell my newly forked coins to some lunatic and buy actual bitcoins with the proceeds! PLEASE FORK IT!

I think you're more skeptical of PoS than I am, but I agree with what you're saying here.

Since you're sure you'll sell the forked coins, I'm curious: have you sold your clams? I get the feeling most people (including me until recently) don't realize they had clams. When I found mine, I sold some and kept some.

[jonald_fyookball]

what makes PoS "better"?

Absence of necessity to burn electricity.

Sorry, but this is not necessarily true at all,
and getting security with no energy cost is
quite possibly a pipe-dream.

Proof of stake seeks security without cost,
but the laws of economics say that security
costs will always rise to meet the rewards...

Which has been discussed at length here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860194.0


...And if you don't want rewards to secure the
system, then you'd be taking away one of
the most important aspects of Bitcoin's security model,
which is incentivizing people to honestly participate
in the network instead of attacking it.

One thing is for sure:  Proof of Stake is a radical
departure from Bitcoin as we know it, and would
necessarily have to start as a fork into an altcoin,
at least to prove the new model, because everyone
isn't going to just wake up one day
and decide they all want to switch over.

[tss]

if you search,

I AM SURE someone will offer you a POS service for your bitcoin. 
send me your coin to my wallet and i will stake it and pay you 1% everyday.

just one caveat, no withdrawal, EVER.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Proof of stake seeks security without cost,
but the laws of economics say that security
costs will always rise to meet the rewards...

Laws of Economics are not universal, they are environment dependent. Change environment (this is what cryptos do) and you will change the laws.

Right now we observe that there are some PoS systems that consume almost no electricity but have not been successfully attacked yet (and the reward is very appealing). Your statement contradicts to observations and this makes me suspect that you are wrong...

...And if you don't want rewards to secure the
system, then you'd be taking away one of
the most important aspects of Bitcoin's security model,
which is incentivizing people to honestly participate
in the network instead of attacking it.

Noone proved that Bitcoin's security model is the only viable one.

[johnyj]

POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can do this because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=848881.0

Point 7

It is not labor theory of value, it is a simple fact that people will always select the lowest cost method to get a coin. POS miner can not get it since they think a POS coin could have same political position as fiat money, sadly no one listen to them because they don't have any army

And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary

[johnyj]

POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can have value without production cost, because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

Then http://coinmarketcap.com/ gives us incorrect information... or you are just wrong.

Yes, those information are meaningless

Imagine that I create a coin with 500 coins total supply, I hold 499.999 and sell the rest 0.001 to my another account at a market price of 1000 dollar, I will get a coin exchange rate of 1 million and a market capital of 500 million. With a small amount of capital and a good scheme I can pump the coin price by 10-100 fold and start to dump the rest of my coins

[Come-from-Beyond]

And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary

Controlled hashpower ~ available money. This lead to the conclusion that there is no difference between PoW and PoS except the fact that PoW needs a lot of electricity.

[Come-from-Beyond]

and start to dump the rest of my coins

Which will adjust the market cap to corresponding level. The coins on that site already passed this stage and established at some level.

[Come-from-Beyond]

People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems.

More and more Bitcoin owners are starting looking for alternatives to wasteful PoW, this is the point of this discussion.

[cbeast]

Right now we observe that there are some PoS systems that consume almost no electricity but have not been successfully attacked yet (and the reward is very appealing).

How wonderful! I suppose, in that case, we don't need to change Bitcoin after all. People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems. I guess you've put an end to this discussion once and for all. Bravo!

Laws of Economics are not universal, they are environment dependent. Change environment (this is what cryptos do) and you will change the laws.

And of course he can write his own textbook on economics.

[johnyj]

Unfortunatly a lot of guys here are already involved in asic mining and they have own interests while argueing pointless contra POS:

POS=no production cost=no value
If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

So when having costs for producing "something", this "something" will automatically get a value?
We are not even talking about human ressource, it isonly a asic-miner standing in a datacenter and wasting energy.
In my opinion this is nonsense, you won´t find such behaviour anywhere in the economy.

Having a cost does not automatically give something value. However, when something is getting some demand, people will always seek the lowest possible cost to get it, either they mine or they buy. Mining cost is just a indicator of the real demand, if it is too low, capitals will flow into mining, and raise the difficulty to a point that buying cost is almost the same as mining cost

You can imagine, if someone created a very advanced mining machine (like quantum mining rig) thus there is almost no way for normal people to mine the coin without large investment in TIME and R&D, then they can only buy coins from the market. In that case, bitcoin mining can consume much less energy for this specific miner. But as soon as there are other similar companies start to deploy their quantum mining rigs into the field, the situation will change, exactly like what happened in the ASIC mining evolution

[johnyj]

And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary

Controlled hashpower ~ available money. This lead to the conclusion that there is no difference between PoW and PoS except the fact that PoW needs a lot of electricity.

PoS domination once established are unchangeable, this is clearly telling late comers: You are too late, don't join this game. However, PoW hash rate domination are all temporary and can be changed quickly, we have seen many times old hash rate king been knocked down by new mining pools/farms

[johnyj]

People who prefer PoS can simply use the already existing PoS systems.

More and more Bitcoin owners are starting looking for alternatives to wasteful PoW, this is the point of this discussion.

It is not wasteful, it is a must. You can't create money out of thin air like fiat money, that kind of scam must stop, this is the point of bitcoin

[LeChatNoir]

POS=no production cost=no value

If I can produce a coin without any cost, why should I pay any thing valuable to exchange it??? I will just go ahead to mine it

Fiat money can do this because there is a law to force its circulation, and the cost to make that law can be a war, which costs millions of times more energy than POW mining

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=848881.0

Point 7

And POS coin is against the nature of decentralized system: It is fixed by a small group of stake holders while the others can never change the system even if the time comes. The POW coins instead will change when the majority of hash power decided that a change is necessary

So you really think majority of hash power having full control of the protocol is better then stake holders leading the coin development? Are you serious?