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941  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Greencoin on: December 20, 2011, 09:43:14 PM
I think it is better, if a miner is an identified person - so it is not possible anonym attack the system, and it is not possible more than one miner computer pro person.
How would this be guaranteed? How can a distributed network verify unique identity?
942  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Replacing Bitcoin with something less wasteful (split from Is deepbit.com stealing coins?) on: December 20, 2011, 01:38:27 AM
Last thought for the evening, I tried to look up the SIC ( Standard Industrial Classification ) for bitcoin mining, it's not there. Too bad the codes are 4 digit decimal, "ID10T" would provide an easily remembered designation  Grin
If you're looking for a serious response here, I'd argue it'd go under either 7379 (Computer Related Services, Not Elsewhere Classified) or 6099 (Functions Related to Depository Banking, Not Elsewhere Classified (which includes wire clearinghouses and EFT networks)).

But I suspect this is intended as a sarcastic jab, in which case I'd note that lack of an OSHA classification doesn't stop pyramid schemes from being a major industry either. Also that your habit of making such asides might be contributing to peoples' tendency to construe you as a deliberate troublemaker instead of actually taking you seriously Wink

Qoheleth, thanks again for the thoughtful input.
Glad to help.

If you have time, I think this thread has some interesting ideas for an alternative vote-vetting system, although it's far from a complete proposal as yet (most notably, there are some significant bootstrap problems that need to be addressed).
943  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Is deepbit.com stealing coins? on: December 19, 2011, 11:36:46 PM
So, first off:
A really good way to not get sucked into the paradigms of a given tool set is to start with requirements. Rather than retype the work of others, I would suggest you take at look, FOR EXAMPLE ( just like BOINC is an EXAMPLE, you dingbat ) at this refined set of proposed requirements posted elsewhere on this forum:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54222.msg647423#msg647423
I looked at this proposal, and it's still missing the secret sauce. It has the idea of using "trustworthiness" on the network to determine nodes' weights in getting to sign off on a transaction having occurred or not occurred, but doesn't explain how "trustworthiness" is determined.

Now, certainly, if there was some way to establish such a thing, algorithmically, in a way that prevents both sockpuppet shenanigans and the long (but big) con, then you'd be done! You wouldn't need proof-of-work anymore! The problem would be solved!

But... that's a hard problem. That's one of the fundamental hard problems in this field, from what I understand. I've not yet heard of any algorithm to do it. And the proposal given doesn't say one word as to how it would be accomplished.



So let's put that aside for the moment. Let's take a step back and look at the requirements for a currency. To me, they seem to be:

  • Multiple accounts, each with a persisted balance that cannot change except in atomic transfers
  • The ability for the holder of an account, and only the holder of that account, to atomically transfer funds to another account
  • Privacy of the account balance with respect to any individual account holder. (Possibly. Not sure if you care about this, although many folks around here do.)

Are there any proposals that address these requirements, of which you're aware? I should note that since reliance on a "trusted authority" would allow such a party to violate invariant 2, the solution cannot rely on one.
944  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Greencoin on: December 19, 2011, 11:16:27 PM
The million dollar question here seems to be:
Quote
The one who is loyal to the net and reliable (identified by key pair) should get more to do with bigger possibility from the network.
How is loyalty and reliability determined?

Bitcoin's methodology is to fix the value of a person's word to the computing power they can throw at a "hard" computational problem. The idea is simple: any single "evil" user must outvote the computing power of all the "good" users in order to hijack the ledger. Hence, the ranking is purely to make it prohibitively difficult for any single "evil" user to get strong enough to do damage.

The idea behind your proposal seems to be, let's not use proof-of-work, it's wasteful and pins voting power to "people who can afford hardware". Let's find some other way to verify that the "votes" will be mostly "good" ones. It seems you want to do this by saying, okay, some nodes are more trustworthy "loyal and reliable" than others, so the "good" nodes have more voting power than even millions of nodes made by an attacker.

But that's easier said than done. What determines loyalty and reliability? If it's anything that is weak to social engineering, you're sunk. If it's anything where an attacker could lie low and act "respectable" for five or ten or fifteen years and then steal millions, you're sunk.
945  Economy / Speculation / Re: RALLY! on: December 16, 2011, 10:22:17 PM
946  Economy / Speculation / Re: Mt GOX - Manipulator !!! VIDEO on: December 16, 2011, 04:21:54 PM
1) Guys developers, of all tired of the ever-increasing prices, 0.00000001 deals, let's add a new money in system ... Guys developers will say: it's impossible ... Then GOX says, then let's make another copy bitkoin, and we will make it completely legal and will add to the stock exchange on a par with the old.
The nature of Bitcoin protects here - Mt. Gox has no special advantage over any other exchange company other than it being the one with the most liquidity (most popular one). If Mt. Gox adds "Goxcoin" or whatever, then who will use it? Does anyone trade in Goxcoin right now? If they say "ok we'll stop accepting Bitcoin in the near future, let's all transition", people will just switch to Tradehill or one of the other exchanges, and "Goxcoin" ends up just another example of a Bitcoin fork with no new features and less adoption.

In other words, it'd never fly. People who use bitcoin want a theoretically decentralized crypto-currency. If an exchange decides to make a centralized one, they're shutting themselves out from the market.

2) Men-system developers, the government put pressure on us and we do not want to lose money ... Or we stop exchange  bitkoin, or you do such a client, so do not put pressure on us, and we make it completely legal, and add exchange ..
Why should the developers care whether Gox is having legal trouble? People can still use Tradehill, or CryptoXChange, or whatever. The nice thing about Gox in this situation, anyway, is that it's based in Japan, so whatever legal trouble they're having with "the government" doesn't apply to the 2nd and 3rd place exchanges at all. Gox can stop exchanging Bitcoin or whatever, but Bitcoin can continue easily without it.
947  Economy / Speculation / Re: Mt GOX - Manipulator !!! VIDEO on: December 16, 2011, 04:11:12 AM
I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact that apparently control the rate of some people, probably those who do invest in a higher price. And this naturally leads to a sharp crash, when the man thinks the course "acceptable" to exit the market. And how much investment it made ​​- no one knows. If he will put "unlimit order" even out of spite, it may derail rate to zero. (as was) Be careful.
If you have open orders on some commodity, isn't it illegal to give investment advice without disclosing it?
Or is that just common practice for stocks or something?

Edit:
I can even assume that the S3052 and Mt Gox - is one person ... What thoughts?

I am flattered, but no: I do not even have the basic computer skills to do any bot thing.

I highly doubt that 16,000 coins or who will entrust the bot, it is obviously done by hand .. For such a case the bot does not need ...
The fact that the warrant stood there for at least 5 minutes and does not appear on any chart suggests that the GOX has definitely to do with it ...
So really you're making two arguments: Someone at Mt. Gox is deliberately manipulating the market, and S3052 is in a position of influence among Bitcoin investors.

How are these related? If you can move the market with your words, you don't need to move the market with shady orders. The fact that both are positions of influence in the market doesn't mean that any attempt to move it by one implies shadowy ties to others. Especially when you are trying to link someone with no software background to suspicious behavior at a primarily software-based company.
948  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Custom FPGA Mining Board: X6000/X6500 on: December 09, 2011, 06:27:34 PM
How are the stock heatsinks attached, by the way? I bought mine with heatsinks included, but given this whole discussion of how important cooling is, I might want to try out some alternatives and want to know what I'm dealing with.
949  Economy / Speculation / Re: Looks like the manipulator is failing you guys, muahahahaha on: December 04, 2011, 07:14:17 AM
like he probably did when he pushed it to $30.00.
Man what? I thought the $30 was your run-of-the-mill hype bubble.

I mean, I totally agree that Bitcoin's only going to succeed long-term if we can establish an economy with it - an ecosystem of goods and services using Bitcoin as the currency of exchange. And the manipulator running around is making it hard to tell what the coins are actually worth in the context of that theoretical economy. But neither of those things mean that every positive motion of the BTC/USD exchange rate was deliberate market manipulation by persons unknown.

And all I have to say about the political derail is:
America became great by allowing people to succeed and realize the American Dream. Today, we now have millions of people feeling entitled to the American Dream, and the only way they can see to get there is to tax those who have already accomplished this.
Then the real fact under debate is: is the lack of social mobility in this day and age a matter of laziness, or a matter of genuine stratification?

(That's not a question that's easy to answer! Anecdotes won't cut it!)
950  Economy / Speculation / Re: Signals on: December 02, 2011, 10:42:28 PM
Why is an upward shift in mining power a signal of Bullishness? Someone? Anyone?
Presumably, each person mining seriously on GPUs (where power costs are a factor) is looking for some minimum "real dollar" value per hash to make running their rig (and paying those bills) worthwhile. So, presumably, miner beliefs that the price is going up = more miners firing up their rigs = upswing in total network hashpower, and miner beliefs that the price is going down = more miners mothballing their rigs = downswing in total network hashpower.

Of course there are other factors that go into this kind of math (for instance, the current difficulty, which just got reduced a couple days ago). But expected electricity return on BTC (i.e. expected exchange rate) is definitely one of them.
951  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Which card for mining? on: December 02, 2011, 07:01:47 PM
NVidia makes fine cards but the architecture they use is complete poop (a technical term) for mining.

So technical Smiley
A more technical explanation would be a combination of two factors:
1) ATI and nVidia chose different tradeoffs on how to get good graphics performance; ATI maximizes the number of shaders on the chip, whereas nVidia prefers more complex shaders running at higher clock speeds. For 3D rendering, which one of these is better depends on the application... but for the kind of work that is done by the SHA-256 algorithm, having 3x as many shaders is better than each shader running 2x as fast.
2) ATI's SPU architecture happens to have a "rotate right" opcode, whereas in nVidia's SPU architecture it takes 2-3 operations to do. SHA-256 uses bit rotation a lot.
952  Economy / Speculation / Re: [Poll] Has the $3 Floor Been Solidified? on: December 02, 2011, 02:02:59 AM
Yeah, as much as I'd like to believe that Bitcoin is heading up, I can't have much confidence in the current price with this "40k bidwall" malarky going on. Until they quit it there's really no way to tell what the "real" price is.
953  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Custom FPGA Mining Board: X6000/X6500 on: December 02, 2011, 01:56:17 AM
I'm a bit curious about the advertised hashrates on these boards compared to other FPGA devices. Specifically, it looks like the ZTEX board is using the same FPGA as the X6000 (in fact, possibly a slightly inferior one), but they claim they're getting an average 190MHash/s rate, which is nearly what your X6500 board claims to get. Is this just a matter of incompatible metrics (minimum MHash versus average MHash), or is there something in their FPGA logic that you could harness to get better hashrates on these boards?

Edit: I reread the thread, and noticed that this is a conversation you had yourself - where it turned out there was, in fact, some logic optimizations they did that aren't incorporated into these boards yet. Well, that's fine, so long as you'll be revisiting it sometime after the first batch have shipped Wink
954  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: So, are we shuffling forward? on: December 02, 2011, 01:36:28 AM
Sorry, did you just mention something called a BIDWALL!!

Please explain...
Cheesy

Sure!


This is a chart (as of about a day ago) of people's asking prices for Bitcoins. The "asks" are the prices for which people are willing to sell their Bitcoins, and the "bids" are the prices people are willing to pay for Bitcoins. Now, look at the "bid" part of the graph. See that huge step up at about $2.90? Most of that is coming from a single buyer, who has claimed he is willing to buy a massive number of bitcoins (about 40k if I'm reading it right) at that price. Up until about a day ago, such a bid existed at $2.65, keeping the price of Bitcoins from falling below that. With that floor in place, the price worked its way up to $3 over the course of a few days, at which point the enormous bid at $2.65 vanished and was replaced by one at $2.90. To me, this looks like someone with a lot of money deliberately trying to ratchet up the price of Bitcoins for reasons unknown... which means that as soon as he decides it's no longer worth his time, all of that support at $2.90 will vanish, and who knows what'll happen to the price then.
955  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: possible hacking and suggestions on: December 01, 2011, 11:11:54 PM
As far as I know, there's no inherent security risk to mining at all. If they're related, I'm pretty sure it could only be because there was either some malware involved which you thought to be mining software, or some third party who was given info they shouldn't have been given.

So. Were you solo mining, or mining in a pool? If in a pool, what info did you give the people running the pool? What mining software are you using and where did you get it? Do you actually store your bank info/credit card info on your computer (that's risky to begin with)?
956  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Physical Bitcoin - Alternatives to Casascius? on: December 01, 2011, 08:52:01 PM
Paper money form-factor compatible with USD sounds good. But the unfunded approach seems kind of awkward to me, given that all that's guaranteed by the bill itself is that a wallet exists. You can see the public key, sure, but you then have to check the balance every time the bill is used, instead of being able to use it "like cash" (as with Bitbills/Casascius).

(Also, Bitbills still has you beat on mint prices below 20BTC, although you're ahead of Casascius in that respect.)
957  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Gold / Bitcoin 30D on: December 01, 2011, 08:36:19 PM
I'd put this down to coincidence. Bitcoin plunged on the 14th because some cone sold 50kBTC at once, not out of any larger market trends.
958  Other / Beginners & Help / Physical Bitcoin - Alternatives to Casascius? on: December 01, 2011, 08:30:48 PM
The idea of being able to "spend" Bitcoins via passing around a redeemable note seems pretty neat to me, but the only such hat in that game right now seems to be Casascius, who have really daunting mint fees (65% for the "pocket change" size!)

I looked into Bitbills too, but, although their mint fees seem more reasonable, from what I hear they haven't actually been selling for several months now...

Does anyone know of any other such endeavors, or possibly what's going on with Bitbills?
959  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: What's the first thing you're gonna do when you become a Jr. Member? on: December 01, 2011, 08:20:53 PM
Get help running a miner that uses CPU instead of a graphics cards
You'll have trouble! There are technical limitations that keep that approach from being very effective versus the cost of electricity. Although, if you're not worried about the cost of electricity, it can be done - cgminer supports it out of the box.

Edit: In any case, my first outside posts will probably be about the X6500 FPGA miner - I'm curious as to why its MHash/chip rates compare so poorly to the ZTEX boards.
960  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: So, are we shuffling forward? on: December 01, 2011, 04:19:19 PM


Seriously, though... I have trouble trusting the recent price rally given how we got where we are. The push from 2.50 to 3+ that we saw over the past few days was made possible almost entirely by a couple of huge bidwalls - one at 2.65 a couple days ago, and now one at 2.90. So, as long as that bidwall is up, there's no way to be sure that the price isn't just being propped up where it is.
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