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21  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Replacing Bitcoin with something less wasteful (split of Is deepbit.com steal..) on: December 19, 2011, 11:13:42 PM
Flip Tulipcoin, I understand exactly what you're suggesting. Thus, here's a much more specific question: how would you combat the potential for a sybil attack, without the assumption that every client must be connected to the network at all times?
How close a sibling are we talking about? Would a sibling attacker have, say, private keys known only to it's sibling? I don't mean to be circular, but how a node's "identity" is defined would be some persistent property of the node when disconnected from the network and verifiable by other nodes during the time the first node is connected. Other nodes must a recollection of the identity, such as a public key, to validate a signature exchange. Consensus of all participants validating each other on an ongoing basis with changing keys would probably be a part of it, as it would make flooding the network with confederates who would validate an attacker ineffective.

Handling failure of consensus is an implementation issue I would have to break down to use cases. If there's an overarching simple answer, I'm not seeing it.

The property of identity itself need only persist between connections, not forever. Although I dislike the SecureID system for various reasons, their implementation of object authentication requires that an object's identity be "freshened" by occasional connection to the network, it is not a static property. Now if only their token database wasn't centralized maybe they wouldn't have gotten hacked so easily this past year.
22  Other / Politics & Society / Re: "Religion is always in the control business..." on: December 19, 2011, 10:07:19 PM
Is it any wonder why some religions talk so much about heaven and hell?  Is it to convert the unbeliever?  No, I know for a fact that the threats of the Christian and Islamic hell don't cause me any loss of sleep.  Nor does the promise of their heavens.  Hence, it is to control the believers lest they should get a desire to doubt and perhaps risk the consequences.
Claiming to have an "inside line" with a supernatural world is the world's oldest confidence scheme. Such silly games are for silly children to play with each other.
23  Other / Beginners & Help / Is deepbit.com stealing coins? on: December 19, 2011, 09:52:13 PM
Quote
Besides, existence proofs are always compelling, witness the BOINC project does this for CPUs and GPUs as well and it is not centralized other than as a matter of recordkeeping convenience.
Makes no sense, BOINC is very centralized, it must rely on a central system to feed it with Work Unit to crunch.
That's only because BOINC does interesting and useful computing work from many fields, hence it's actually connected to reality and not a self contained game simulation featuring performance of the same simple operation over and over like the computing done in bitcoin. Spin those wheels, little hamster, spin!  Wink
24  Other / Beginners & Help / Is deepbit.com stealing coins? on: December 19, 2011, 09:45:01 PM
By default, the Bitcoin client accepts whichever chain is the longest as the "correct" blockchain.

Again:  How would you create a public ledger that is unchangeable, yet decentralized?

Why, a blockchain based on cryptography, Mr. Bitcoin, of course. There's no other answer, nor could there possibly ever be one.

Now that I've given the correct answer to your straw question, you tell me why having the required computing power needed to maintain that blockchain must be an artificially rigged game that is completely open-ended with respect to required capacity?

Keep it short, I'll be interviewing someone else shortly. Thanks for your time, I sometimes find it amusing to be patronized by inferior people.
25  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Why are people losing faith? on: December 19, 2011, 09:10:32 PM
I understand completely. Thank you.
26  Other / Politics & Society / Re: "Religion is always in the control business..." on: December 19, 2011, 08:57:17 PM
I still think it would be better if the Quran could be updated to account for new information learned from science (eg, bacteria, vitamin b12, etc)
Which version of the Quran? The copies that were interred in the walls of mosques hundreds of years ago are at variance with the stuff that is passed around these days. What to do, what to do?

It's really much better just to outgrow all this sunstroked Semitic nonsense, why go through life as a superstitious child?
27  Other / Beginners & Help / Is deepbit.com stealing coins? on: December 19, 2011, 08:49:45 PM
By default, the Bitcoin client accepts whichever chain is the longest as the "correct" blockchain.

No shit? To borrow a phrase from the mayor of Chicago, that's fucking retarded. Are you suggesting that this preposterous business of spinning wheels at ever increasing rates is necessary to maintain the security of the blockchain? If so, failure is inevitable. So many flaws, thanks for pointing this one out.
Ok, bright and enlightened one, what is your solution?  I see nothing wrong with accepting the longest blockchain as the correct one.  I can think of no other way to successfully implement a decentralized account ledger.  You seem to be so ready to criticize Bitcoin's methods without offering up any solutions of your own.  Once you can solve all the problems that Bitcoin solves, people might start taking you seriously.

Quote
Give the technical details.
The means of benchmarking GPUs, FPGAs, or whatever are too obvious to waste space on, in fact the more heterogeneous the platforms, the better for having them cross-check each other. Besides, existence proofs are always compelling, witness the BOINC project does this for CPUs and GPUs as well and it is not centralized other than as a matter of recordkeeping convenience. Of course, the BOINC project generates work of tangible value, whereas bitcoin asks for unbounded resources just to barely keep itself going, so there's a shared interest in central recording in BOINC.

It's been said before, but Nakamoto was very prudent not to burn his real identity on a 1.0 prototype. He's obviously much more clever than the folks who have internalized his work as gospel, a silly thing to do with a wholly synthetic mathematical game.
What kind of jargon are you spouting off about here?  Way to completely generalize when I say "give details".   Roll Eyes

Again, if you have a better system than Bitcoin, by all means, spill out the DETAILS.  Just saying "it'll use BOINC" isn't enough.  How would you create a public ledger that is unchangeable, yet decentralized?

Too funny! Ok, sonny, I won't trot out the string of degrees I have in mathematics, economics, and law. I won't cite my 30 years of experience in the financial services industry with 20 of that on Wall Street. I won't even discuss my role as one of the earliest implementors of the RSA cryptosystem in that industry. All that was a long time ago, I would pay people to do that stuff for me now had I not done so well as to be out of it completely. None of that is relevant in a world born yesterday.

In any case, the only practical value I see in bitcoin is as a transactional system.

I am sufficiently experienced to recognize that in the worst case a black box behavioral emulation of bitcoin as a transactional system could be built, perhaps out of as little as hamster wheels and rubber bands, perhaps more. Decentralized distributed data models are very common, there are many solutions to maintaining coherency in them. So on and so on. Yawn, been there, done that.

A really good way to not get sucked into the paradigms of a given tool set is to start with requirements. Rather than retype the work of others, I would suggest you take at look, FOR EXAMPLE ( just like BOINC is an EXAMPLE, you dingbat ) at this refined set of proposed requirements posted elsewhere on this forum:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54222.msg647423#msg647423

You shouldn't be surprised that the adults in the room are not taking bitcoin as seriously as it takes itself, many of them have seen a lot more than you have. Did I mention I knew some of the implementors of Flooz?  Cheesy
28  Other / Beginners & Help / Is deepbit.com stealing coins? on: December 19, 2011, 07:37:41 PM
So, there's two requirements for Bitcoin 2.0, or the replacement for Bitcoin 1.0
1. Eliminate wasteful mining driven by computing capacity.
2. Decentralize the currency exchange function.

#1 is easy, #2 not so...

Oh, RLY? #1 is not easy. There must be proof of work to ensure the validity of blockchain.
Good thinking inside the Bitcoin Box there. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like cryptography.

Why not a capacity-based mining metric as used in the distributed project software BOINC? "Earnings" are based on your percentage of commitment of a benchmarked resource as well as total capacity contributed. If capacity is really not needed in the aggregate, you could level the playing field between the cell phone processor used at 99% and the energy-wasting dedicated red hot pig breath generator running at 99% or for that matter dial in any skewing of reward you might want to achieve.

The whole weird hack of the difficulty level makes it clear whats really going on. Set it to minimum and rework the mining block creation rate meter, which could be amenable to something as simple as a consensus-based peer to peer counter.

Right now the mining hack is a lovely illustration of the fallacy of composition. The more it's done the less is the return to each participant for their investment. At the other end, where everyone recognizes pointlessly compute-intensive mining just costs everyone more individually so that no one should do it, bitcoins aren't created. It's a truly ludicrous situation.

LOLNO

a BOINC-like system would require a central authority to verify the work, defeating the whole point of decentralization.
Why is that? Please elaborate. Peers benchmarking each other could do the verification. Once again, you are only telling us how Bitcoin works, it seems you are having trouble thinking outside that tiny little Bitcoin Box. ROTFLMFAO, what's the weather like in 2008?

I am having trouble figuring out how such a system would work successfully.  It seems like you are describing Bitcoin when you say "'Earnings' are based on your percentage of commitment of a benchmarked resource as well as total capacity contributed".  And then you say that you will even the playing field between a cell phone and a power generator.  How, exactly, would that be achieved?  Give the technical details!  Most "evening the playing field" ideas are shot down pretty quickly by people who figure out how to circumvent such measures.  The best you could do is to limit the computations to something that only CPU's can calculate, not GPUs, but that's not going to save much power.

And what about security?  If it only takes a few cell phones to do the calculations, what would stop someone with malicious intentions from calculating and broadcasting their own blockchain?  By default, the Bitcoin client accepts whichever chain is the longest as the "correct" blockchain.  If you used a similar scheme, but limited the processing power behind the protection of said blockchain, it wouldn't be long before you'd start seeing 51% double-spend attacks on it.

By default, the Bitcoin client accepts whichever chain is the longest as the "correct" blockchain.

No shit? To borrow a phrase from the mayor of Chicago, that's fucking retarded. Are you suggesting that this preposterous business of spinning wheels at ever increasing rates is necessary to maintain the security of the blockchain? If so, failure is inevitable. So many flaws, thanks for pointing this one out.

Give the technical details.
The means of benchmarking GPUs, FPGAs, or whatever are too obvious to waste space on, in fact the more heterogeneous the platforms, the better for having them cross-check each other. Besides, existence proofs are always compelling, witness the BOINC project does this for CPUs and GPUs as well and it is not centralized other than as a matter of recordkeeping convenience. Of course, the BOINC project generates work of tangible value, whereas bitcoin asks for unbounded resources just to barely keep itself going, so there's a shared interest in central recording in BOINC.

It's been said before, but Nakamoto was very prudent not to burn his real identity on a 1.0 prototype. He's obviously much more clever than the folks who have internalized his work as gospel, a silly thing to do with a wholly synthetic mathematical game.

29  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Why are people losing faith? on: December 19, 2011, 07:12:05 PM
Does this really look like a doomed currency to anyone?
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg360ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv
Compared to what?
30  Other / Beginners & Help / Is deepbit.com stealing coins? on: December 19, 2011, 07:04:00 PM
So, there's two requirements for Bitcoin 2.0, or the replacement for Bitcoin 1.0
1. Eliminate wasteful mining driven by computing capacity.
2. Decentralize the currency exchange function.

#1 is easy, #2 not so...

Oh, RLY? #1 is not easy. There must be proof of work to ensure the validity of blockchain.
Good thinking inside the Bitcoin Box there. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like cryptography.

Why not a capacity-based mining metric as used in the distributed project software BOINC? "Earnings" are based on your percentage of commitment of a benchmarked resource as well as total capacity contributed. If capacity is really not needed in the aggregate, you could level the playing field between the cell phone processor used at 99% and the energy-wasting dedicated red hot pig breath generator running at 99% or for that matter dial in any skewing of reward you might want to achieve.

The whole weird hack of the difficulty level makes it clear whats really going on. Set it to minimum and rework the mining block creation rate meter, which could be amenable to something as simple as a consensus-based peer to peer counter.

Right now the mining hack is a lovely illustration of the fallacy of composition. The more it's done the less is the return to each participant for their investment. At the other end, where everyone recognizes pointlessly compute-intensive mining just costs everyone more individually so that no one should do it, bitcoins aren't created. It's a truly ludicrous situation.

LOLNO

a BOINC-like system would require a central authority to verify the work, defeating the whole point of decentralization.
Why is that? Please elaborate. Peers benchmarking each other could do the verification. Once again, you are only telling us how Bitcoin works, it seems you are having trouble thinking outside that tiny little Bitcoin Box. ROTFLMFAO, what's the weather like in 2008?
31  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Count down to Iran invasion on: December 19, 2011, 06:22:48 PM
Alternating funding of both Iran and Iraq wars over the past forty years has been classic Machiavellian divide and conquer.
Yeah, the U.S. concurrently arming both sides in the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s was indeed classic, but I'm not sure it did anyone much good long term. Dammit, they quit fighting before they had completely destroyed themselves, what's the fun in that?

On the other hand, getting the Iranians and the Israelis to smoke each other for good is an idea with legs.


People aint stupid. Shit like that backfires in the long run. US foreign policy is outdated imperalist bullcrap. Listen to Ron Paul and vote for him if you're US citizen.
Thanks, no. Paul would bring far too many anachronistic crazy people with him as baggage. A larger scale version of what happened when the U.S. House of Representatives got stuffed with Tea Party retards last election is not needed.

Hey, I know, let's see if Paul and Ralph Nader would consider a 3rd party run together. Nader's still alive, at least as much as Paul, isn't he?

BTW, the American electorate is really fucking stupid, superstitious, and has an attention span roughly equal to the length of a beer commercial, even worse than only 30 or 40 years ago. The 1980s were a watershed time for the "Let's Get Stupid" movement, now we are stuck with them until they die, hopefully sooner than they expect  Grin


32  Other / Beginners & Help / Is deepbit.com stealing coins? on: December 19, 2011, 06:06:42 PM
So, there's two requirements for Bitcoin 2.0, or the replacement for Bitcoin 1.0
1. Eliminate wasteful mining driven by computing capacity.
2. Decentralize the currency exchange function.

#1 is easy, #2 not so...

Oh, RLY? #1 is not easy. There must be proof of work to ensure the validity of blockchain.
Good thinking inside the Bitcoin Box there. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like cryptography.

Why not a capacity-based mining metric as used in the distributed project software BOINC? "Earnings" are based on your percentage of commitment of a benchmarked resource as well as total capacity contributed. If capacity is really not needed in the aggregate, you could level the playing field between the cell phone processor used at 99% and the energy-wasting dedicated red hot pig breath generator running at 99% or for that matter dial in any skewing of reward you might want to achieve.

The whole weird hack of the difficulty level makes it clear whats really going on. Set it to minimum and rework the mining block creation rate meter, which could be amenable to something as simple as a consensus-based peer to peer counter.

Right now the mining hack is a lovely illustration of the fallacy of composition. The more it's done the less is the return to each participant for their investment. At the other end, where everyone recognizes pointlessly compute-intensive mining just costs everyone more individually so that no one should do it, bitcoins aren't created. It's a truly ludicrous situation.
33  Other / Beginners & Help / Replacing Bitcoin with something less wasteful (split from Is deepbit.com stealing coins?) on: December 19, 2011, 05:29:47 PM
I hate going through 3rd parties for payments. The two things that shouldn't exist in bitcoin are the mining pools and the exchanges. Reason is because they are making bitcoin centralized. All the BTC are going through the biggest exchanges and all the computing power is gathered together in the largest mining pools. If the banks felt threatened and bitcoin became outlawed all the exchanges would be shut down and you wouldn't be able to exchange your fiat for bitcoin. If the largest mining pools were hijacked then there is the possibility that the network could be overtaken because that's where the majority of the computing power is. We need a decentralized exchange and decentralized mining. When we have those things bitcoin will be much more stable in my opinion.
The problem is that mining pools are the only interesting option for people which doesn't have a mining rig.
The whole mining thing is the most elaborate and wasteful means of trickling out a new block every ten minutes or so that the human mind could devise, so far anyway  Cheesy
As you rightly point out, the exchanges thwart the concept of decentralization.

So, there's two requirements for Bitcoin 2.0, or the replacement for Bitcoin 1.0
1. Eliminate wasteful mining driven by computing capacity.
2. Decentralize the currency exchange function.

#1 is easy, #2 not so...
34  Economy / Speculation / Re: The rocket is secretly taking off! High 3.26, 20k BTC to $3.50 (up from $3.35) on: December 19, 2011, 04:16:26 PM
Also by having this rally, the one with the bad hand isn't the manipulator right now, now that has been taking over by the ones that are buying today at 3.40 USD and higher. They will be the biggest losers in this manipulation game.
+1
35  Economy / Speculation / Re: This lack of volatility almost makes Bitcoin look... civilized on: December 19, 2011, 04:12:44 PM
this volatile price rise will Doom the Bitcoin economy.  all the merchants will be forced to go away. Grin
Bitcoin is neither fish nor fowl, desert topping or floor wax.

On the one hand it trades like the cheesiest sub-penny stock ever, offering a combination of tiny total market capitalization, lack of transparency, and very few interested participants of size that takes me back to when the "pink sheets" were really listed on pink pieces of paper that got physically passed around. In this regard it's a toy for all practical purposes, an amusing diversion.

As a medium of exchange it offers a requirement of unusual determination to actually use it for its own sake, the wide acceptance and universal recognition associated with cowrie shells, and an ability to store a relatively fixed value for hours at a time. Thank goodness for the drug trade which generates enough volume for the speculators to have something to play with, for otherwise the "bitcoin economy" would likely be much, much smaller.

However, let's not overlook it's utility for money laundering, transaction fees for placement of many small amounts filtering through a number of addresses are much better than old-fashioned vehicles like Cayman banks and single premium life insurance policies. Too bad it's not big enough to absorb the demand and still keep laundering somewhat hidden.

So, all in all, bitcoin is a pretty interesting online game/simulation. Isn't that good enough?
36  Economy / Speculation / Re: The rocket is secretly taking off! High 3.26, 20k BTC to $3.50 (up from $3.35) on: December 19, 2011, 02:19:57 PM
Thanks all. Sell 'em if you got 'em.
37  Economy / Speculation / Re: The rocket is secretly taking off! High 3.26, 20k BTC to $3.50 (up from $3.35) on: December 19, 2011, 05:03:27 AM
When I wake up, something better have happened! Smiley
Be careful what you ask for  Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNttHtP2Dtk
38  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: mining on really old hardware on: December 18, 2011, 10:07:09 PM
Is mining worth it
Returns to mining should be in the aggregate near zero over the long term, your mileage may vary depending on your incremental electrical cost of mining. The energy efficiency of mining from least to most efficient generally goes: CPU mining, GPU mining, FPGA mining.

The most tenuous aspect is whether or not you will be able to recover an initial hardware investment, due to both the expected near-zero returns over time and that any payback period could quite possibly exceed the lifetime of bitcoins actually being of value. Of course, lots of folks will tell you the latter will *never* happen.

If your only cost is the additional electricity to mine on a video card in a system that is left on anyway ( say a 7x24 firewall box ) your only initial investment would be your time setting up the software. Beyond that point any outlay for hardware should probably incorporate FPGA hardware, which is unlikely to ever be of any use for anything else. I suppose if you were to buy a video card for gaming you could also choose one that could be used for mining.

Setting up a CPU miner program is easiest, cheapest in initial outlay, and would give you a feel for what takes place.

Some people might tell you mining is a sucker's game since the return to mining is rigged to begin with by the difficulty level, which is adjusted every 2016 blocks to result in one block being solved every ten minutes or so, thus the difficulty changes every two weeks or so. The more capacity ( hardware and electricity ) that is thrown at mining, the less the return per unit of mining capacity. From this one might conclude the best way to mine is not to mine, although there are evidently big galvanized steel tubs of Kool Aid from which you are encouraged to drink in order to help you believe otherwise  Grin
39  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Count down to Iran invasion on: December 18, 2011, 02:59:21 AM
Alternating funding of both Iran and Iraq wars over the past forty years has been classic Machiavellian divide and conquer.
Yeah, the U.S. concurrently arming both sides in the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s was indeed classic, but I'm not sure it did anyone much good long term. Dammit, they quit fighting before they had completely destroyed themselves, what's the fun in that?

On the other hand, getting the Iranians and the Israelis to smoke each other for good is an idea with legs.
40  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Why are people losing faith? on: December 17, 2011, 02:42:41 PM
$30-$40k worth of hardware ...
mining SC's

I haven't realized someone could be that retarded.  Shocked
+1
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