It means they make few cents an hour keeping them barely alive while company like Nike is selling the shoes they make for hundreds of dollars in "first world" countries making HUGE profits for which their CEOs buy yachts and golf courses and jets to amuse themselves with.

Do you approve of such a practice? Do you consider it morally right and justified and it should be just that way?


Criminal is whatever gov says is criminal, in most developed countries sweatshops are illegal (guaranteed minimal wage) so that is irrelevant. The question is, do you approve of it being criminal? It can be made legal tomorrow if people of that country agree that it should, do you think it should be legal? If not, why not? Isn't it "liberal" to not regulate the company and punish it for doing what it thinks benefits it?


Again, it's not about what is crime or not ... it is about: do you approve or not? Would you speak against ponzi schemes if you knew of any as I'm doing? Would you try to warn people to steer away from them and warn others? That is the question!

because I'm being lambasted here for speaking against something that I believe to be wrong just because "it makes economic sense" or "can be done" or "that's what capitalism is" and similar justifications ... do you consider them valid justifications for letting ponzi schemes happen and not speak up against them?

Are you claiming that net effect of global speculation is loss for the speculators? The religious economists just *love* speaking in hypotheticals and they avoid comparing their made up scenarios with real world like a vampire garlic LOL

So? Are the speculators on average making money or losing it?

that goes both ways I believe but I don't mind ... btw if you endorse intentional speculation for the sole purpose of profit then I'm still calling you a scumbag LOL

I did not accuse you of that, you confessed it

I believe that kind of speculation is wrong, morally wrong, just like sweatshops are in my view and I'm not going to endorse it. On the contrary I'm going to speak out against it as I would against owners or practitioners of sweatshops ... and I would also call them scumbags

OK ... is liberalism compatible with sweatshops then? Toxic waste? ponzi schemes? If not, why not?

I think we are not understanding each other in one pretty obscure point, I'll try to explain once I know you answer so i can see if I'm right ...

If the speculators would be losing money they wouldn't speculate ... it's an oxymoron. Of course some do, but net effect is speculative gain, there simply wouldn't be speculators if this weren't so. But we have real world to compare this with, we do not have to be talking in hypotheticals and you can clearly see that the speculators on Wall Street are making HUGE profits while regular guy is losing everyhting, industry is crumbling, exports are almost nonexistent etc. In other words real economy was replaced by virtual casino economy where real producers not not stand a chance against speculators. And when it is discovered that the speculators are holding worthless paper instead of them going bankrupt they are bailed out! This is not the fault of "government intervention" as is presented, the fault is that key people in government are bought off by the exact same CEOs holding that worthless paper to bail them out! It is NOT in the gov interest to do that, the only reason they're doing it is because they actually work (are "hired" aka bribed) for the corporations which benefit from this robbery. In that case the gov *is* the corporation! It is the same entity handing itself public money.

How it does not make economic sense? I'm sure going to make bigger profit when I do not have to pay people than when I do. Economic sense has nothing to do with "free society", that's the problem. If slavery was accepted by society you bet your bottom dollar that it would be practiced. So the only reason it is not practiced is the external pressure from people like you and me making an ethical or moral judgment and disproving of that kind of action. We are willing to speak out, boycott and protest such a company - that is the sole reason they're not doing it. (and also fear of the government intervention, which in ideal case is just an extension of your and my moral judgment - which would be the case if the gov actually worked for the people instead of the corporations themselves)

If we were willing to exert such pressure against sweatshops, they would have stop that too. So why we don't, do you approve of sweatshops? Does the company have "the right" to do that and that justifies it? why is it happening if it would make no economic sense? Are they doing it just for the fun of it?

This is the solution I'm proposing ... educate people about these things and exert just as much pressure on those companies as it would be exerted if they tried to practice slavery. Using our moral judgment of what is right and what is wrong. Creating ponzi schemes is wrong, or do you think not? Do you consider them good and wonderful or beneficial for something? We are exercising our moral judgment in the case of slavery ... why would it be a bad thing to do the same with ponzi schemes?

Some people here seem to be suggesting that morals do not belong into economy ... that is just so wrong, morals should be the *driver* of economy, just as it is with slavery, toxic waste and many other things.

In short: Morals trump "economic sense" every time and the later is not excuse for breaking the former! In my view at least, some people are apparently perfectly willing to break their morals for economic/financial gain. I consider that wrong ... shoot me for it.

Capitalism evolves into corporate fascism if people become bamboozled by the kind of nonsense some are preaching here. Capitalism works only when you have responsible an informed citizenry (or consumers as they like to call them). But if these people start to believe that corporations can do anything for the sole reason that "it makes economic sense", or that simply "because they are corporations and that's what corporations do", or that it's ok to speculate because well ... you can! Then it evolves into fascism very fast, when people lose their guard. So I'm not advocating changing the system, not at all ... I love capitalism, you are misunderstanding me there, I do not want even to ban anything, no! I want *informed participants* taking part in it so scams and frauds are exposed and not taken part in. All I want is informed people to create a market pressure such that "immoral", fraudulent and unsustainable schemes are eradicated. Not by banning, not by hunting down their creators but by *informed* consumers. I love freedom ... but I also love sanity and that's what is lacking here Freedom without sanity and responsibility is a recipe for disaster ... as you can see in the real world right now.

The rest of your post is stemming from this misunderstanding. I'm not saying abolish freedom/capitalism ... I'm saying, inform yourself and think for yourself for god's sakes a little do not parrot the nonsense pushed by those at the top, it's there to misguide you and defraud you of everything.

This is one of the dogmas which is so easily proven wrong that it boggles the mind why anybody would believe it.

It makes economic sense to run sweatshops and even slaves (if they are not going to rise up that is), I doubt anybody would consider that "helping the masses".

It also makes economic sense to release toxic waste into nearby river instead of often expensive disposal of it. Again, i doubt that can be called helpful.

There are just so blatant examples of this that it cannot be anything else than religion to believe that nonsense ... it for example makes perfect economic sense to rob an old lady on the street. If there wasn't for "regulation" aka laws against robing old ladies on the street, would you say it is ok to do it because well ... it's capitalism after all and you make a profit by doing it?

Of course profit worshipers like to point out to "voluntary" transactions (which robbing an old lady is not) so better example is a mafia offering you "protection" for money. You do not have to accept ... but be prepared for your business to be burned down of you don't. It's the same with people working at sweatshops ... you do not have to work there religious free marketers will say, you can refuse and die on the street corner. Yeah, it's your choice ... you see, you're free! As much as slaves were free not to obey their master ... they could do that, so why the need to abolish slavery, duh ...

It is just mindfuck with these people, it doesn't make sense at all ... it's all just virtual abstracts of how they imagine things would work, not how they actually work.

No, unchecked capitalism results in fascism ... as the gentleman before me already said, there already is fascism is the US (and most of the world) because corporations are fusing with governments. THAT is dangerous! To say that you can make people starve and die by punching some numbers into the computer and it is ok apparently - that is dangerous.


Bio-fuels are biggest scam of the century along with Al "slimeball" Gore and his sci-fi horror movie inconvenient truth! I'm not imposing anything on anybody or would I if I actually had the power. I believe in personal responsibility and personal choice. So I would never force anybody to do anything ... but that doesn't mean I'm not going to *argue* and try to *persuade* people by *arguments* to change their way (or I change mind if I discover that I'm wrong)

The carbon credits is the biggest ponzi scheme of them all, it is a scam so big that I can't even articulate it, it seems we agree there.


You're confused here and committing a logical fallacy called false dichotomy ... that predatory capitalism is bad doesn't mean communism is good, where did you get that silly idea? It doesn't make sense, does it? You're just making up excuses for the failures of the type of thinking which lead us to the bring of a greatest crisis in the history of humankind.


Well, I can't exactly see how a lot of people loosing their money when the bubble bursts can be considered a ood thing. Do you think it is going to generate some confidence in the bitcoin currency then? It will bring attention to bitcoin no question about that ... but what kind of attention will it be?

"The first free and independent currency crashes leaving thousand of people without their money"

Well, no particularly positive attention ...

Later phases of unchecked capitalism is fascism, it's one and the same. Fascism is completely predictable outcome of capitalism over time as corporations accumulate more and more influence, consolidate, form oligopolies and monopolies over time. This is exactly what happened, then they buy off the government when they accumulate enough of this influence ... this is also EXACTLY what happened. Congressmen (most of them at least) are then just puppets for hire by these corporations, isn't that obvious by now? The government becomes just a branch of corporations, they fuse A.K.A. fascism! That's what fascism is ... merger between corporations and government (according to Mussolini). And that's what happens when you believe in the type of wild predatory capitalism like many people here seem to believe in.

So government is not some detached entity like you seem to portray it, no no ... the government *is* the corporations at this point, it represents them. Just look where people in position of power come from (or are payed by), Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, Halliburton etc. etc. it's "capitalism" that hijacked the government and is working against the people to make them slaves ... because it "makes economic sense", there is profit in slaves you know ... and the people of the US are going to get it if they do not wake up.

This is it ... that it is a "capitalistic idea" justifies scams (or million of starved people to death in real economy) in your eyes? I'm hearing this all the time ... people working as slaves in sweatshops, response? It makes economic sense! Letting toxic waste into rivers, response? It's capitalism! Millions starved children? Yay for "free market"!

How can people in their right mind do this? Anybody who actually cares about people is called hippie? It is somehow cool to be coldblooded shark for profit? Does the fact that something "makes economic sense" justify the very real effects it has on human society? How for god's sakes? Economy is a human construct ... it should serve people, not the other way around!

I honestly can not comprehend this other than admitting that people have been simply brainwashed. They think that some virtual made up economic structure takes precedence over human values. How is this possible to achieve that people think like this? That if it makes profit it is good, that if somebody falls for it you're not responsible for him being robbed. That's like constructing booby traps all over your house and then laughing your ass off when your unsuspecting family members get slaughtered on them ... after all, they were stupid enough to walk right into them, right? Why should you who set them up be held responsible ... this is just some twisted logic, but it's real! Peope walk into those booby traps created by these people ... and they do get slaughtered en masse! This is no joke ... are you not concerned about that at all? "It's capitalist idea" is you answer? They deserve it? What the hell is wrong with you people?!

Yeah, I'm sure you enjoy seeing millions of men, women and children die of starvation all the time because some investment banker is taking his next big business into fruition. But I'm considered "immoral" for calling that banker scum ... and I'm supposed to be the one with values upside down?
 
So let's worship speculation and get offended by people calling scam a scam so we can ignore reality, sleep well at night and make some awesome profit without our conscience being moved.

I'm sad that I actually live in a world with moralities like yours

"If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility"

How do I deal with this kind of stupidity while not being a pompous ass?

I agree that we could grow up together, but it is just impossible to reasonably discuss with this kind of people who believe so bizarre things with so much certainty while outright refusing to consider anything else. These are religious fanatics. As Max Keiser calls them "financial terrorists", they are willing to terrorize the population because of their bizarre beliefs that profit justifies everything and speculation is the best thing since sliced bread. They are willing to go to unheard of extremes to justify these beliefs while quoting their economic priests like Mises and similar charlatans not understanding nor caring how it actually works in real world.

It's just impossible for me to remain calm and patient with people like this. I'm sure there are also reasonable people there in BTC community ... but I can't figure out why are they silent. then these religious fanatics are going to ruin it for everybody ... I can't take it anymore ...

I've been developing an application of my own for bitcoin but it doesn't give me much confidence that it is worthwhile when it is going to be overwhelmed by speculation and ponzi schemes ... we'll see.

I'm not the one quoting my holy scriptures


My suspicions are confirmed, the "bitcoin community" (at least the significant part parroting their religious economic beliefs) is just a bunch of gullible children trotting out their holy text they've been indoctrinated into. They think that pretty charts and lines represent wealth and that profit is above all and justifies anything and everything. It's this kind of useful idiots who allowed the current crisis to materialize ... but they never learn, it's a religion and not to be questioned. Independent thought? Questioning the dogma? No!, Go away heretic ... we have Ludwig von Mises to tell us the ultimate truth! Ignore the real world, quick!

Bitcoin is doomed to fail with this kind of mindset in its community... the current price is just a bubble, it is going to burst sooner or later if real value in the form of goods and services is not introduced in near future. Mark my words ... those who sell last are going to be the suckers.

We have a deal! I'll do the same thing for you I do not like scammers who refuse to change their ways after they're notified of their scam. And I'm going to call a scam everything that claims to make more money solely from money as they are just artificially inflating the price and are greatest threat to bitcoin and honest people than anything else. It's a ponzi scheme pure and simple ...

Seeing your mindset I wouldn't be interested in any of your "web apps" anyway, it's probably going to be a scam ... (not that you could identify me if I ever choose to use it LOL)

This is third time I hear this nonsense ... how do speculators "smooth the market"? That's just so immensely stupid thing to say, they actually *create* the swings. I can't imagine by what mechanism would they "smooth" it ... but I can see the mechanism of how they make it swing violently ... hear hear

When some commodity is rising in price here come the speculators to "invest" which in turn makes the price rise even more, if enough people do this through "investment funds" and so on, the artificial demand completely overtakes the real physical demand and it is impossible to say which is which ... this goes on again until there are suckers left to be pulled in by looking at pretty charts with pretty lines which do not represent anything else at that point than the number of other suckers who are willing to do the same. Now, the world runs out of suckers ... BOOOM economy is fucked as it's going to cause mayhem, everybody selling like crazy to be first to sell to be as close to the top of the pyramid as possible and/or not lose the most. Have you seen the news lately? This is EXACTLY what is happening right now ... so I'm hardly pulling things out of my ass, am I?

I'm sorry, I know my words are strong ... I understand that most people do not realize what they are doing. Can you call a child taking someone else's apple a scumbag because he "stole it"? I do not think so ... but it is expected that the child grows up and as a grown up is going to be held liable for the same action. It's time to grow up

It's the intention that counts, from the outside it is very hard if not impossible to distinguish speculation and genuine demand. Of course if you buy bitcoins to do some business with them and in the meantime it rises you're not speculator nor scumbag.

What gives bitcoin its value right now? What is backing it? There are not enough real useful services (meaning other than "let me try this" type of things which are driven by pure enthusiasm for the novelty of bitcoin - which is going to go away soon) so most of the apparent "value" is a bubble created by exactly the type of speculators hoping to make a profit. This is not real value ... it's virtual, it doesn't exist ... in the real world nobody values bitcoins for the sake of being bitcoins. It baffles my mind how anybody can see this as something good, why would it be good? For what? because it makes pretty charts? This type of economy is just a giant ponzi scheme snowballing and snowballing until there is enough suckers to believe it will go further up ... when the world runs out of suckers people start selling off unleashing a raging inferno of sell-offs where those who sell off first are at the top of the pyramid making huge profits while the base is going to loose big time ... in the end no real value or wealth was ever created, the money just changed hands (was redistributed) from the suckers to those at the top. there is not value in that ... pretty charts showing rising numbers are not wealth. It's fraud and a scam ... the only real value is physical economy and services that people desire *other than* monetary gain. Selling "investment funds" for the sake of making more money from money is not a service anybody would desire if they wouldn't want more money from it ... the same goes for gambling, casinos etc. - NOBODY would participate if there wasn't a prospect for making more money out of just money. This is the scam ... that *can't be done*, it's zero sum game. You can NOT make money from money this way or create real wealth ... you can just take it from somebody else - and that is just wrong and YES IT IS IMMORAL too!

If somebody does this, he *is* a scumbag whether he realizes it or not. And not because I'm calling him that ... a robber is not a scumbag because I call him one, he is a scumbag because he robs people. If you want to remedy the situation you need to go to the root cause ... simply, do not do it! And inform everybody else why it is a bad thing to do. The big guns on Wall Street *are* scumbags and a lot of people are suffering because of them ... a lot of people will suffer if you're going to do this with bitcoin too. It's a matter of personal responsibility and yes also of morality ... do you want true production and creative people to suffer because of your thirst for money/profit?

It is a moral question, but we are people, we are supposed to care about morality ... otherwise we are just barbarians running around hitting each other with clubs on the head and seeing who comes out of it alive. Are we civilized or are we not? Do we care about the big picture consequences of our actions or do we not? It's personal question that everybody has to answer for himself.

As for me, I'm absolutely unwilling to compromise my personal integrity and morality for profit or I would loose what I consider making me human. I'm not an animal to be ruled by my primitive urges.

I can't believe people are brainwashed enough to actually say this ... the speculators are buying rice for *the sole purpose* of selling it at higher price so net effect is that the rice is more expansive than it would be if the market was untampered with (not manipulated) with a cut going to the speculator. The speculator *does nothing else* than take the cut. There is no value added, he just steals the money counting on the fact that regular people do not have the time or desire to watch for such a thing (because they are honest and actually producing real goods rather than feeding off of someone else's work). Then he can up the game and convince some gullible people to become "investors" and actually buy the stuff he is hoping to sell at higher price (calling it fancy names like "investment fund") ... the suckers invest their money of course again for the sole purpose of making more money, this is how it snowballs. Suckers buying it makes the graph go up helping to convince other suckers that now is the good time to "invest". The increased demand in turn makes the prices rise even more, he repeats this until he can find enough suckers to buy the crud he is selling. Then he goes out of the market being an insider and knowing that he is going to sell it which is going to crash the price. By this time however the crud he created changed so many hands that nobody really knows where it came from so he is safe. Then he sells and makes huge profit because of the bubble he created (or with his insider friends), the suckers loose big time ... oh, investment got wrong, nobody knows why, the invisible hand of market decided ... oh sure, save that crap for another suckers not me. Net effect = few people made huge profits doing nothing else than moving some numbers around, a much larger pool of suckers who "invested" got robbed and in the meantime million people died of hunger in poor countries because of the artificially inflated price of food while the bubble was forming. Yeah and i the meantime few rice farmers made some more money because few of the breadcrumbs from this scam has fallen their way ... but they probably "invested" it in another bubble which is going to implode next year. Final result, everybody looses except speculator who didn't do anything useful in the first place!

Scum of the Earth! If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility I would lock these people up the the worst prison until they rot! Instead I'm trying to educate people about this so the market speaks and people just REFUSE to participate in this and realize what a scam it is ... but I'm being lambasted by religious number and graph worshipers who just don't give a damn about the effects on the actual real world it has. Oh but our graphs are going up, that can't be wrong ... give me a break.

This is what I'm talking about ... the bitcoin community is infested with mindless cheerleaders for profit thinking it s ok to completely divorce economy from human values and physical production. This is the EXACT same nonsense we were bombarded with when deregulation of US economy was pushed bringing rise to such "useful financial instruments" like derivatives, "encouraging 'investment'", "stimulating economy" ... we've heard it all ... in the meantime industry was destroyed, physical production plummeted, millions of people found themselves on the street all the way speculators made wonderful profits, charts were happily jiggling on the way up ... that's how "important role" they play.

If this is the kind of people using bitcoin then it is already dead, it just doesn't know it yet. Exactly as many people knew US economy is done and over with when they saw that 99% of it was in worthless paper traded by speculators robbing regular people blind, who just now are waking up to the fraud when they realize they've lost everything while banks are making record profits.

keep thy moral to thyself? this is the exact mindset of financial sharks who do not give a damn about the consequences of their actions, the only thing that matters is profit. Am I going to make million people starve to death by my food speculations to jack up prices and make profit? Who gives a flying fuck ... these people are scum, lowlifes of human society. What do you provide anybody by speculation? Who does it help? It does nothing ... the fairytales you recite here are excuses for you to not feel guilty robbing people. What good does it make to buy rice at certain price with the intent to sell it for higher price? NOTHING! It just creates artificial demand, a bubble, making rice more expansive that it really should be according to real market making people starve in the process! If you do this kind of thing, you're a leech on human society feeding of off others and I despise you!