When I hoped he'll go to jail, many thought he would remain free, that he was above justice because of all his political relations. I'm happy to see they didn't help. A 25 years sentence is more than I had wished. He's still a young guy, but he'll be old and broke when free. It's also quite likely he will still have plenty to pay back to the people he robbed, meaning that whatever job he'll get, part of his salary will be seized, and that he will remain poor for the rest of his life. Tough for him, but good for crypto. This is an example to other crypto start-ups and exchanges. Now, they know that they have to behave, otherwise they'll end up in jail. |
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The real news is that they were sold at a loss.
Did they had an urgent need for cash?
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OK, so that could be legal, but if you want to be useful, give us the name of a notary who would accept to do it.
What fees do you suggest for finding a notary? I'm no longer useful for free in my old age  But you're used to real estate transactions, so explain what you want to your notaire and he won't really have any reason to refuse. It's not for me. It's about being useful to the community here. I would never buy a property with BTC. That's an incredibly stupid idea. People who promote it have no business experience, or are crooks. Never use BTC to buy real estate. That's my advice. |
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I guess few people here have ever been in a third world country. Yes, millions can't access a bank account, neither can they access an exchange. And that's good, because exchanges are for the poors are scams, taking a 10% fee, instead of the .5% (or less) we get in rich countries.
Also, some poor people don't use banks because they don't trust them, you couldn't convince them to use BTC...
People from 1st world cannot think the way people do in the 3rd world.
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What is Bitcoin in France? Bitcoin is money, is it a commodity or property? If an apartment is bought for apples, then this is not a purchase of an apartment, but an exchange agreement  I understand that it is possible to agree on the amount of bitcoins, but I do not understand what additional documents need to be signed so that the parties cannot make claims to each other after the transaction if the price of bitcoin changes. In any case, it's not a currency in France ( https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/cryptomonnaies-cryptoactifs). The notary will take care of the sales contract. Just like an employment contract, a marriage contract or any other contract. OK, so that could be legal, but if you want to be useful, give us the name of a notary who would accept to do it. |
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My experiences with French notaries is that they don't give you any choice. The buyer must pay the notary fully or they don't do anything. After the sale, the notary pay the seller. If someone knows another way, please give the name of the notary who allows it.
Actually, I like to do things this way. It's very secure for both buyer and seller. Proof of payment is kept by the notary. Elsewhere, the buyer pays the seller directly with the notary keeping all details of the bank transfer, but the French way is more secure, and more and more countries are adopting it. And that rules out any payment in cryptos.
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And how do people in France solve problems if they cannot confirm the legality of buying cryptocurrency?
I heard that in countries like France, Germany there are very strict taxation and control over real estate purchases.
I think that there is less and less time left for the cryptocurrency to remain out of control.
That's the question: if the user has had btc for a long time and even earned them years ago by playing on sites that have disappeared or mined btc, if he bought them and no longer has the bank statements (perhaps he's even changed bank since then and there are no archives), it's not going to be easy, if only to declare the capital gains to the tax authorities. In any case, he'll only be able to recover modest sums in PtoP, otherwise the bank's red lights will be going off all over the place. It will not be easy anyway. It's totally impossible to buy any property with BTC in France. Proof of funds is not an issue, you wouldn't find a notary to make the sale. Was there last month, I'm thinking about buying a barn in Normandy, but I didn't even ask about BTC, it would have been a waste of time. It's complicated, but not impossible. As I explained earlier, you can use the "dation in payment". In addition, a real estate series on Netflix shows an investor who absolutely wants to pay in BTC; in the docu they don't explain anything, but we can say that as long as the State receives its share (in fiats), then it's possible. After that, it's silly: it's better to resell your btc, pay your flat tax and simplify everything for the notary. Dation en paiement: this is a method of settling a debt in which the debtor, with the creditor's agreement, hands over to the creditor something other than that initially stipulated in the contract. Everything you need to know about dation in payment : https://www.village-justice.com/articles/dation-paiement-comme-modalite-reglement-une-dette,38798.htmlAnd if your notary doesn't know about bitcoin, he does know about dation in payment. All that remains is to set the price of the property, and if the seller agrees to a fixed amount of btc at the time of the promise to purchase (even if it means having to put up with market fluctuations). I guess you don't have much experience buying or selling real estate, but I do. Grab your phone. Call a few French notaries, and ask them if it's possible to buy a property with BTC. You will not find a single one... |
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Now that the subject is pretty well explained, I'd like to see some BTC webzine making an article about it.
Come on, it happens some days that there aren't much news. Many bitcoiners need to know about it.
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And how do people in France solve problems if they cannot confirm the legality of buying cryptocurrency?
I heard that in countries like France, Germany there are very strict taxation and control over real estate purchases.
I think that there is less and less time left for the cryptocurrency to remain out of control.
That's the question: if the user has had btc for a long time and even earned them years ago by playing on sites that have disappeared or mined btc, if he bought them and no longer has the bank statements (perhaps he's even changed bank since then and there are no archives), it's not going to be easy, if only to declare the capital gains to the tax authorities. In any case, he'll only be able to recover modest sums in PtoP, otherwise the bank's red lights will be going off all over the place. It will not be easy anyway. It's totally impossible to buy any property with BTC in France. Proof of funds is not an issue, you wouldn't find a notary to make the sale. Was there last month, I'm thinking about buying a barn in Normandy, but I didn't even ask about BTC, it would have been a waste of time. |
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Bulgaria is not a country where it is so safe and comfortable. Many European countries are raising taxes. In Poland, the tax is already 19%, and in a year or a year and a half in European countries there will be almost the same tax. If you are satisfied with such a tax, then this is your choice.
I've lived in most of Bulgaria's main cities, and I can confirm that I feel much safer here than in any Western European country I've ever known (I was born in France, and I've lived in the UK, Germany and Spain). I think anyone who has grown up in Western Europe and then lived in Eastern Europe would agree that insecurity is a very Western thing in Europe. 10% of flat taxes is good for me, I can't think of a better alternative in my personal situation. Perhaps Malta or Gibraltar would be more advantageous, but what I would gain in taxes, I would lose because of the higher cost of living. I agree that Bulgaria is nice and safe. And cheap, too. I could live there (maybe I will), whereas there are more and more cities in western Europe which I try to avoid as much as I can. |
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If you really want to see how stringent the regulations got, see what was passed after the housing market crash in 2008. You would be surprised at how much banks are able to get away with knowing they have federal regulators that will jump in if they need liquidity. As of March of 2020, U.S. banks literally can loan/invest 100% of depositor funds through the fractional reserve banking system -- they don't need to keep a single cent of client funds on hand. Doesn't sound like they're highly regulated with that type of freedom.
Be specific, what exact regulations are you suggesting? Establishment of an FDIC type insurance program?
something that will break your mind banks dont lend out depositors money.. .. are you shocked?? they CREATE money when they set up mortgages. yep thats right new money. they were limited to only create new value to a ~% of inflation against total value on deposit. thats where i think you got confused about the fractional reserve part. they dont borrow deposits. they create a X% of new value compared to deposits when they create mortgage loans .. the other different "fractional reserve system" was something else. it was where when people deposit bank notes to get bank account balance.. those bank notes were to be burned when creating electronic account balance. but banks then had to have small <10% (of the electronic bank balance) to hand in the form of new bank notes to honour account withdrawals. which is where the banks then bought (at face value) crisp new bank notes. which meant the US Mint(treasury) got money for the fractional reserve however due to most people now using visa/mastercard for payments instead of cash via ATMS the % of fractional reserve has decreased to nearly nothing the treasury(us mint) didnt like getting less and less income and are now making a CBDC to replace the need for banks and visa/mastercard where the treasury again takes more control of citizens accounts and takes any fee's or investment plans they can create from CBDC and now you should be fully uptodate of how the system has and does and will work Yep, banks create money, and some people have tried to make the same thing with so called stable coins, which were supposed to be backed with hard currency (well, fiat currency, because the US dollar is not that hard...) but which were not. Additionally, some investment exchanges have launched schemes where it is possible to borrow BTC. I would not bet (unless they become properly regulated) that these coins are fully backed with customer deposits. That's another reason to stick to the simplest swap shops... |
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Nigeria deserves to be on the list because its citizens benefit from minimal taxation through peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions, and an impressive 5.75% of the global cryptocurrency ownership belongs to Nigerians. (According recent word statistics)
I do not even think Nigerians are taxed at all. Nigerians have an easy ride. The country doesn't permit crypto trading with their local banks so there is no how the banks will work out the taxing. So the Nigerians find ways to trade among themselves and using exchanges p2p with paying any form of tax. If someone is looking for a country with the best tax treatment for bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, then they will probably choose a country with a developed economy and a friendly banking system. If you need a country where there is no control over cryptocurrency, no taxes, or you have many opportunities not to pay taxes, then this is Russia. In Nigeria, there are no such shadow cryptocurrency markets as in Russia, and no one plans to close this market yet. Maybe I'm special, but I don't want to live in Russia, nor in Nigeria. I'd rather choose a country which I like, then find a way to optimize, or evade taxation there. If you like Europe or the USA, then there are higher taxes on cryptocurrencies than in Russia and Nigeria. You can not evade taxes in Russia and pay 6% taxes, and with your tax return, confirm your income in Turkey or Dubai, if you need it. If you are a tourist, there are still many countries where there is no serious tax control. I know. I've been taking advantages of those for many years. Nigeria deserves to be on the list because its citizens benefit from minimal taxation through peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions, and an impressive 5.75% of the global cryptocurrency ownership belongs to Nigerians. (According recent word statistics)
I do not even think Nigerians are taxed at all. Nigerians have an easy ride. The country doesn't permit crypto trading with their local banks so there is no how the banks will work out the taxing. So the Nigerians find ways to trade among themselves and using exchanges p2p with paying any form of tax. If someone is looking for a country with the best tax treatment for bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, then they will probably choose a country with a developed economy and a friendly banking system. If you need a country where there is no control over cryptocurrency, no taxes, or you have many opportunities not to pay taxes, then this is Russia. In Nigeria, there are no such shadow cryptocurrency markets as in Russia, and no one plans to close this market yet. Maybe I'm special, but I don't want to live in Russia, nor in Nigeria. I'd rather choose a country which I like, then find a way to optimize, or evade taxation there. When you said you won't live neither in Russia nor in Nigeria, I would have thought that your reason is that you are looking for a developed and peaceful country which is what many people seek for. Trying to evade tax is against the law and you can be dealt with if caught. It is better you live where you won't be taxed at all in crypto than living where you will put yourself in the extra stress of evading tax which is illegal. Paying tax is stressful! Being a citizen is even more stressful. That's what I gave up. |
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for instance the difference between a non-custody swapshop. vs a custodial portfolio manager investment firm. is that the second version would need some CONSUMER PROTECTION INSURANCE
Juts like banks. I don't have much money at banks, but I'm happy to know that if one of my banks goes bankrupt, I won't lose my funds, because there's a safety net to protect me. That safety net also includes substantial requirements for banks (well, not substantial enough in my opinion), to prevent bank managers from using customer's money to play Russian roulette with stocks. |
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I usually use the first kind of exchanges, to be honest, as I don't need to store money on any centralized services and only transfer it when selling for fiat. There are still some risks here, as you can't be sure the exchange will follow through on their part, so some regulations are needed. But I agree with the op that the regulations should be harsher for those exchanges that hold the money of their clients, might use it for their own purposes (like FTX), and offer more services.
I think the names in the original post are a bit confusing, though, which is probably why many people won't get the difference right. I think I got it right, but only because I have experience with both types of platforms.
Yes, commercial exchanges, or simple swap shops. Investment exchanges or cryptocurrencies portfolio managers. I wasn't sure what were the most correct words, but I hope everybody understood what I meant now. There's no doubt regulations are coming, there already there in many countries, but regulators shall make the difference which I made. some easy KYC shall be all that's needed for swap shops, but big companies like Binance shall be much more tightly regulated. |
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Nigeria deserves to be on the list because its citizens benefit from minimal taxation through peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions, and an impressive 5.75% of the global cryptocurrency ownership belongs to Nigerians. (According recent word statistics)
I do not even think Nigerians are taxed at all. Nigerians have an easy ride. The country doesn't permit crypto trading with their local banks so there is no how the banks will work out the taxing. So the Nigerians find ways to trade among themselves and using exchanges p2p with paying any form of tax. If someone is looking for a country with the best tax treatment for bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, then they will probably choose a country with a developed economy and a friendly banking system. If you need a country where there is no control over cryptocurrency, no taxes, or you have many opportunities not to pay taxes, then this is Russia. In Nigeria, there are no such shadow cryptocurrency markets as in Russia, and no one plans to close this market yet. Maybe I'm special, but I don't want to live in Russia, nor in Nigeria. I'd rather choose a country which I like, then find a way to optimize, or evade taxation there. |
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Commercial exchanges are:
bitvavo.com
Wrong, bitvavo offer staking program. Sorry, my mistake. I'll edit my post above. I'm not afraid, it just makes sense for an individual to separate companies according to the service they provide. This is far from a new idea, it's coming from the banking sector, and I believe it should suit cryptos exchanges just fine. Because there are 2 kinds of exchange. It's good to define activities and separate entities based on the services they provide. It becomes easier for the regulators to regulate and protect the interest of the consumer... That's my point! A normal exchange is a company which exchanges fiat currency with cryptocurrency, and vice-versa, taking a small fee in the process. And that's it. Nothing else. I believe these exchanges hardly need to be regulated, because most often they don't store any funds. You make a deal with them, and when it's over, the customer relation is over, everything's terminated. Well, if these kinds of exchanges are not regulated, then the majority of the black money translations will take place here. In the cryptocurrency world, it's a big risk. Many governments have already raised their voices against money laundering risks. Non-regulation will just make it worse and more uncontrollable. If regulation is under consideration, both kind of exchanges need to be regulated. Yes, it depends if you see the problem as an individual, or as a regulator, and what kind of regulations you expect. To the individual, there's less risk of misbehaving with a simple commercial exchange. To the regulator, it depends if the goal is to protect consumers, or fighting tax evasion. |
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alot of people here cannot even get the buzzwords right let alone associate the correct businesses to the correct buzzword
an investment company use terms like portfolio management not "exchange"
they use brokerage not "exchange" they use investment firm not "exchange"
so lets define 2 terms
portfolio managers (custodians of investment)
and exchanges(swap shops)
the latter would be a service of one currency in.. another currency out.. same day. no custodial service
the former would be a custodian. that allows buys and sells of multiple assets in and out interchangeably while still holding onto and being responsible of their customers value/security
there are not that many actual "swap shop" exchanges that are decentralised. but there can become some that offer instant swaps without long term custody services needed. and it can become its own industry.
however these swap shops would still need regulation because they are still a facilitator of finance(a money/currency business) thus still end up needing to KYC customers
however due to lack of custody service they wont need extra requirements like auditing customers holdings or insuring customer holding becasue its a straight trade in and out
where as portfolio managers would need extreme regulation to support their competence to manage and hoard customers value as well as needing regular audits and pay for insurances and security and other safe guards like having a customer service team for customers to actually contact
...
i know people will say "its bitcoin there should be no regulations" well that was true in 2009-2013 when bitcoin was not seen as a currency but as private property(asset) but now that its defined as a currency asset. currency laws started to apply.. and the only way to avoid it now is if it was challenged in court to redefine bitcoin as no longer a currency but again as a swappable/tradable private property. then without the currency jurisdiction currency laws wont apply. thus no regulations again
Thanks a lot franky1, at least someone who fully understands me. Regulation is not really my subject, but there's no doubt it's needed. We don't want the FTX debacle to happen again. It would not have been possible if FTX had been a basic commercial exchange. Swap shop as you say. I used the terms commercial exchanges and investment exchanges thinking about the banking sector. May you share more information about the Kraken changes from a commercial exchange to an investment exchange, please.
I just can't. I've used Kraken when it was a simple exchange, and someday I discovered they had turned into a cryptocurrency portfolio manager. Without any warning... That happened quite a while ago, though. |
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I've lived in Germany for a while, and I was happy to leave.
Doing business is quite awful there. It's only a nice place as a tourist, but you can have a second home there, spend there a few months per year, and yes, it will be enjoyable. Best places are near the Bodensee.
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People are used to divide exchanges between centralized or decentralized, regulated or unregulated, let's forget all this.
There are exchanges which you can only use to buy or sell cryptos, the commercial exchanges, and then there are investment exchanges which want to keep your coins, because they propose you plenty of services for them.
Commercial exchanges are:
bitcoin.de
paxful.com
Investment exchanges are:
binance.com
coinbase.com
poloniex.com
A huge problem is that commercial exchanges are small low profit companies, whereas investment exchanges are making much more money, so some commercial exchanges are turning into investment exchanges. Kraken did that to give an example.
A commercial exchange is just like the currency exchange booth you find in all international airports. You exchange one currency with another. That's it. It's quick and safe. Use investment exchanges at your own risk.
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This is far from a new idea, it's coming from the banking sector, and I believe it should suit cryptos exchanges just fine. Because there are 2 kinds of exchange.
So O.P, how about I say your thread is not complete, because after mentioning that we have two kinds of exchanges, I expected you to give an example which you failed to provide not even one, because by providing that I think it would have help people to understand more what you actually meant, of which I don't mind giving some examples which I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, as it goes as follows; Commercial exchange (i.e they help people buy and sell coins)1. Binance 2. Coinbase 3. Kucoin 4. Remitano 5. Bitstamp Investment exchange (i.e They help people invest in several coins)1. PancakeSwap 2. UniSwap 3. SushiSwap, e.t.c Sorry, but you got it wrong. Commercial exchanges are: bitcoin.de paxful.com Investment exchanges are: binance.com coinbase.com |
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