I beg to differ. In fact salt, necessary to preserve meat before refrigeration, was the first "money", and all new markets for a new commodity are trade and distribution "pyramids".

The first cave guy who stumbled upon shiny yellow stones he couldn't eat or kill anything with in a pile of rocks at the bottom of some stream was exactly like Sitoshi. He picked them all up and went "kool" to himself, went back to the campground. probably pounded them into ear rings and pawned some of them off on some pals. Immediately these guys noticed that their shorties were fascinated by and thrilled with them. Soon other guys also came across chicks with them and also noticed they could also make rings and bangles out of them that really drove the chicks crazy and they all went back to Sitoshi to get some more.

Soon Sitoshi was fat, buried in other valuables and out of places to find more gold just laying around, so still having a bunch of gold that cost him nearly nothing, he decided he had to get guys to pan or mine for him around where he'd got the first batches. Also some dudes named litecoin also got hired by mistake and also figured out exactly what was going on with these ugly dudes getting action with all the hot chicks with this junk. Once Sitoshi's mine was sold out he was fixed for life, still selling it now for many hundreds of times more than he first did and out off the top of his 1st sales pyramid with a fortune. (and probably all the hottest babes in the region)

Meanwhile everybody else was left to either holding on to them as long a they could, and flipping bits for more stuff to new horny dudes or selling their hoards for similar fortunes of value to other tribal warlords etc. using bits of it for barter, whacking one another or "getting their sins forgiven" for some.  

This of course prompted other gold mining and gold panning "pyramids" to be started as get rich schemes for their bankrollers. The story of oil is little different.

What actually increases the marginal value of gold and oil is the fact they are relatively scarce, lots of work to get, of marginal utility and are thus always worth bidding-up and fighting over.


No, they ENSLAVE the world's people and their nations because they OWN it's people's Labour Exchange "money" supply, being it's rentiers, it's usurers for power and influence, it's fiat counterfeiters and the fiat devaluers of all labours.

In the Economics 101 lesson in Genesis of the famine in Egypt, Joseph, conveniently (greedily) sells Pharaoh’s stored grain until Pharaoh accrues all of the rare gold which was then the only form of "money" in the first year of famine. In the second year, the people were then forced to barter their animals and other holdings for the grain and then, thereafter, they end up bartering themselves as slaves for grain merely to survive the famine as they are all then finally left gold-rent debt-enslaved and bonded in indenture to Pharaoh for eternity. The famine was prepared for but the preparers sought only to enslave by it.

Finite gold or any "finite something" like DaVinci paintings or '57 Chevy Bel Airs could not ever be used as a Free Market "labor exchange currency" in any growing freed market economic system. A finite and privately hoarded “old money” (gold, silver, Quagga-skins etc) public Labor Exchange Currency supply system is prescription for slavery.

In any commercial system by means fair or foul a "commercial" winner (or winners) will always eventually emerge to own nearly all of the available, finite dual-use Labor Exchanging "currency" resource (all the gold or DaVinci paintings) after which point the rest of the economy (all property) becomes their private chattel, and all of it's participants become their rent-debt-slaves. In a private, finite currency system after that point everyone else has to go to them, cap in hand, to rent some piece of one of their loaned-out DaVinci paintings or a fiat token of their wealth derived from it (gold) even just to use a pay-toilet!

Even if everyone had some tiny reserve of gold or DaVinci painting scraps set aside as savings the debt enslavers could drive prices up by raising token-rent-debt-prices (tax-interest usury) or printing-dilution money-supply (monetization) inflation and thus force all the small gold holders to be forced to exchange their paltry holdings to eat or heat their homes or fuel their cars. (hoarded false-scarcities, engineered famines or pandemics).

One "winning" consumer (Gold Pharaoh), no matter how audacious his corruptly consumptive lifestyle cannot "urinate down" a "Free Market" economy getting his yards cut, building his pyramids or renovating his palaces. The power to counterfeit, loan and issue (from nothing) a fiat Labor Exchange Currency token is the power to corrupt. The Wealth of Nations is their public property expressed and represented by the foreign-export fruits of all labors value of their publicly owned and issued "Medium of Labor Exchange Currency".  Defending, maintaining and growing the ongoing utility and labour-exchange value of its own citizens economic "currency" is the public work of a nation, it is not ever to be regarded as the private toy-hobby of some "beneficent" private Tory-Bilderberg Trotskyite Menshevik gang of wealthy boardroom(or stock market)-socialist Pharaohs.


Legally speaking a "bitcoin" is a "Crypto-chain-securitized future-derivative-exchange token" contract, (just like a gold futures contract, a corn futures contract or a mortgage backed securities[gotta love that last word] futures contract) and this is why (loophole) it is NOT lawfully a Ponzi or Pyramid scheme. It is an exchange traded contract on the current value a (bull) speculator or (bear) thrift seeker places on the future value of some commodity.

In this case a Bitcoin-Securitized Token itself is the commodity the "futures derivative-value contract" is about.





That is exactly all that it is. The terms are you pay it's holder what you think it is/will be worth to you in the future in order to possess it. It is "secured" by the encryption chain that guarantees and certifies it's provenance and makes it unforgeable.

It is almost all a gamble, except it undeniably has value and utility of it's own, and is therefore not legally a "nothing for a something", the risk is in it's market valuation.

And, it is "backed" by the good faith and trust of all in the fruits of the labours of it's owners who are the economic "Nation of Bitcoin". It is also the first Global-Economic "nation" of digitally productive citizens.


I have proposed a solution

See this proposal/explanation
Re: stable bitcoin pricing...The "Bubbles with Bitcoins" nightmare
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175708.msg1832923#msg1832923

The rest of my "ramblings" were with regard to the subject of this discussion:

Do Bitcoins need something REAL to back them?

not to do with the "ramblings" of yours.  

The relatively assured stable value over time of a Medium of Labour Exchange Currency is it's most critically important and indispensable feature, eclipsing even it's portability and immunity to counterfeiting!

In Economics, Labour alone is the Prime Commodity-Resource, without it, nothing happens, period!

It doesn't matter if it's scratching a nose at an auction, hitting a key, doing a heart transplant, changing a tire, wiring a house, curing a disease, buying or selling a share, paying a bill, inventing a Bitcoin or taking out the garbage.

The Prime Commodity Resource of the Fruits of all Labours is the hopefully ever-expanding (growing) Wealths of all Nations. The wealth of a nation's exports is what "backs" the "relative to other currencies" day to day value of it's people's Labour Exchange "currency" in the global marketplace.

Finite, precious resources like fine art, antiques, collectables and to a lesser extent second rate finite commodity resources like platinum, gold, gems and other generic junk are "deflationary" Mediums of Savings simply because they are finite as the fruits of all labours cannot be.

All other commodity resources are mere Mediums of Investment that can go up or down like toilet seats depending on a myriad of esoteric elements of technological chance, adaptations or happenstance.

No contractor, entrepreneur not merchant can price a contract to do anything or hire others to do them in an unstable supposed "Medium of Labour Exchange Currency" that may be $80 one day $100 the next, $260 the next and then $50 two hours after that, nor one that changes 15%-70% of it's value any time of any day like a toilet seat.

Nobody could risk the time it takes to get or spend it.

BTW gold and oil have had a totally consistent relative value to one another for a hundred years, and you cannot really trade gold unless you have a battery operated drill and assaying equipment.

There is also nothing that "backs" gold, it can be easily counterfeited (plated tungsten) and it too, even like oil, began it's path to becoming a symbol of wealth as a "pyramid scheme". The Bilderberg Gold Pharaohs of Liechtenstein still wield their monopoly over it as their fiat authority to own and enslave us all and our nations though the mechanisms of their exclusive proprietary ownerships of our national mediums of labour exchange currencies today.  When the "lights go out" fuels, ammunition, weapons and food will all have far more value than gold.

A Bitcoin is simply a derivative that only represents the LOOT or SERVICES that the guy that you got it off, got out of you for it, and made off with. It is a fiat "futures derivative contract" that arguably has some but really has no certain inherent added-value, other than as a virtual digital sort of a much fancier kind of an encrypted GM ignition key, that you can move, swap and store electronically.

Like a "gold contract' or "mortgage backed security' (I love that last word) derivative it is a "BTC -securitized Future Derivative Contract" that merely allows you to keep, transfer it around or transfer it somewhere else to resell it there for whatever it may seem to be worth to the next guy, a minimum of an hour from now.

The suicidal crisis with Fiat Bitcoins is that there is no convention nor systematic mechanism of well-regulation to stabilize nor assure users the stable Fiat "value" of them, relative to anything else practical. This means that they are doomed to being totally unsuitable, unreliable, non dependable and useless as a Medium of Labour Exchange Currency.

So I finally did an internet WHOIS and got the guy (Paul) on the phone. (a few minutes ago)

He claims they (he) sent the money Monday, it just arrived back in my account as I write this. 

Hell of  a deal if you ask me, it still shows open/unfilled on his website though....

However since I've been on their case since they changed the rules on me, it does at least prove the rule that squeaky wheels may grease you 

I'm having the same problem with VertEx (www.cavirtex.com) here in Canada. I never had any problems making withdrawals from not deposits to them within 2 days they promise before.


(chest beating mea culpas removed)

Then, suddenly during lunch time on Friday (when the Thursday withdrawal should have well already have been processed they announced that they are "hiring 6 new people for customer service" and are "very busy due to volatility" and behind on even "answering up to 400 email complaints" from customers. Still nobody answers the phone nor any emails or any phone messages. Buried in the bottom of their hiring announcement a new wrinkle appears, suddenly:

"There is an up to 5 business day delay on receiving a direct deposit to your bank account"

The timing of this (a free weekend for them) means that nobody is going to answer your phone calls or emails while you wait now for up to 7 days to get your money which they are no doubt using, trying desperately to speculate themselves out of a colossal hole they dug themselves by making big pharaoh gambles with stolen customer's money in the backroom!

Meantime I bought some more BTC (oddly as many as I'd ever owned before) with the extra CAD yesterday and sent them out to my wallet, but the withdrawal still sits there unprocessed 7 days later.

Will they pay their bills? Who knows? This afternoon if my withdrawal order is still there unfilled I'm calling the cops.


So I finally did an internet WHOIS and got the guy on the phone.

He claims they (he) sent the money Monday  

Hell of  a deal if you ask me, it still shows open/unfilled on the website though and my bank has no record of it yet.

I'm having the same problem with VertEx (www.cavertex.com) here in Canada. I never had any problems making withdrawals from not deposits to them within 2 days they promise before.

Despite once having very high hopes and respect for it and it's products, I must strongly suspect this "trading exchange" to be a dangerous fly by night operation, commingling client funds with their own and operating a backdoor, backroom high risk pooled resources Bitcoin middleman-reserve speculation operation behind the illusion of a delayed and sandboxed pseudo Bitcoin trading exchange for clients.

Despite charging high fees unless you engage in lots of speculative churning over time or deal in large amounts their BTC:CAD rates are always comfortably higher for them than those you'll find on Mt Gox, a consistent "spread" which speaks to additional skimming.

They promise a 2 day maximum wait for near-instant Pre-Authourized bank deposits or withdrawals and have exhibited no problem with remotely withdrawing money from my TD bank account within minutes. Then it mysteriously "gets lost" for up to two days before it finally appears in my supposedly "segregated client account". Withdrawals from them to my Pre-Authorized TD bank account also endure these extra day long delays.

After the crash of BTC from $280 to $50 the other day things have suddenly changed. I got out of the market with a small gain in time early the morning of the Apr. 11th and ordered my cash withdrawal at 12:30 AM Thursday but apparently they did/could not get out at all.

Then, suddenly during lunch time on Friday (when the Thursday withdrawal should have well already have been processed they announced that they are "hiring 6 new people for customer service" and are "very busy due to volatility" and behind on even "answering up to 400 email complaints" from customers. Still nobody answers the phone nor any emails or any phone messages. Buried in the bottom of their hiring announcement a new wrinkle appears, suddenly:

"There is an up to 5 business day delay on receiving a direct deposit to your bank account"

The timing of this (a free weekend for them) means that nobody is going to answer your phone calls or emails while you wait now for up to 7 days to get your money which they are no doubt using, trying desperately to speculate themselves out of a colossal hole they dug themselves by making big pharaoh gambles with stolen customer's money in the backroom!

Will they pay their bills? Who knows? This afternoon if my withdrawal order is still there unfilled I'm calling the cops.

Welcome to the derivatives pool commingling, reserve-bankstering backroom client assets trading  Wall Street world of MF Global, where "segregation" is "some kind of a racist" word they never learned

LULZ what are you talking about?

Your "strategy" is FEEDING volatility.

You should be paying far higher fees for taking such risk-inducing positions that risk accelerating the extenuation of steep price deviations.

Yeah, that is why Mt Gox and many other BTC-Fiat Stock Market banksterers still aren't paying out client fund withdrawals after up to ten or more says (so far) - because they didn't nearly lose their shirts last wednesday-thursday.


Topic: Mt Gox Withdrawal
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177252.msg1847128#msg1847128

The "mass majority" who gave somebody else their money for BTC-securitized derivative-future contract tokens which that other person walked away with, did not "drive the prices up to $266".

The way the colossally stupidly designed "BTC Fiat-Stock Markets" seriously and near-catastrophically malfunction did.

Unfortunately that isn't thinking at all. Nor would it be worthwhile after all the inanely stupid BTC "Stock Market brainwashed" common share usurer banksterers have bankrupted themselves and Bitcoin with them, because they refused to see the writing on the wall and even attempt to defend themselves and the bankrupted currency they pretended to be "supporting" by deliberately and cavalierly exposing it to catastrophic systemic risk for what they sadly misapprehended as their own myopically stupid short term benefit.

What goes up always comes down. If they are all foolishly bankster programmed like you Bitcoin is doomed.

The value of a Bitcoin must be reasonably stabilized and it's value deflations(increases) well regulated or it will never be marketable, saleable nor usable by anyone as a useful or practical new medium of labor-exchange currency, nor ever be seen as a trustworthy alternative to any other currency system.


After what people like you encouraged it to do the last few weeks no merchant will ever touch this stuff, as they now know it is.

Thanks for the kind advice I didn't mean to yell.

Well look up a school that has a class called English.

Price fixing is when all competitors secretly conspire (a "Combine" monopoly) to constantly inflate prices and their earnngs. (Like The FED monopoly)

Price stabilization is when an "exchange" doesn't engage in reserve bankstering stealing all clients commingled funds to secretly risk/play themselves a wild-west market like drunken Pharaohs with them in the back room, and when you have counter-speculative trading rules that discourage speculation by limiting position-rungs above and below current value and assigning exponentially higher, punitive fees for dangerous and undesirable risky trading behaviors further out of price-bounds..

No, sorry to strongly, strongly disagree but it's you who have an awful lot of learning to do my friend! Our foolish moneychangers screwed Bitcoin, the failure is all their and people like you's fault. This project isn't a video game where you can betray-kill another team member and "score" their points. We have to defend ourselves against determined, capable and awesomely well armed mortal enemies who are determined to obliterate us and steal all of the fruits of our work for themselves.

We are using their precious "legal pyramid-derivatives loophole" to free ourselves and put them out of their business of enslaving us.

This BTC-securitized future-derivative-contract was intended as OUR new transnational MEDIUM OF LABOUR-EXCHANGE CURRENCY not as somebody else's silly common commodity-resource share! (or wasn't it?   )

Bitcoin has a SEVERELY SUICIDAL problem with "exchanges" that inanely want to try to behave as "stock markets" (gang-spikers with tire shops), who seem hell-bent on destroying all useful commercial purposes and marketability for it, in hopes of making it just another churned-derivative pump and dump Pyramid Scheme for themselves dooming it to implode and collapse.

You see a Bitcoin is simply a derivative that only represents the LOOT or SERVICES that the guy that you got it off, got out of you for it, and made off with. It is a fiat "futures derivative contract" that arguably has some but really has no certain inherent added-value. Like a "gold contract' or "mortgage backed security' (I love that last word) derivative it is a "BTC -securitized Future Derivative Contract" that merely allows you to keep, transfer it around or transfer it somewhere else to resell it there for whatever "buy" it may seem to be worth to the next guy, a minimum of an hour from now.

The problem with the fiat-value nature of "BTC-derivative trading"-induced fiat volatility, is that "democracy" (even so-called "free" market laissez-faire) is no way to valuate a well regulated Supra-National Global Labour Exchange Currency Token system! The hallmark of an Adam Smith sort of "Freed Market System" is that it is always well-regulated.

Price stability is the critical issue that will kill Bitcoin and make it totally useless for commerce if exchanges can't be properly disciplined into the well regulation of "fiat" BTC value. No merchant nor contractor could accept a piece of crud that dramatically changes value every month, week or day or two, let alone every few hours, nor could anyone save with it or even afford to risk the time it takes to spend or be paid in it.

Even the "exchanges" themselves can easily be wiped out like an MF Global when the pool of derivative that they must stock as a trading pool, crashes in value! And we don't even know if this has already happened yet.

Start Here:

The "Bubbles with Bitcoins" Nightmare
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175708.msg1832923#msg1832923

Not only that, it makes it a fiat currency more untrustworthy, unreliable, unstable, undependable and useless than all the other ones.

It i impossible to use a potential new so-called Medium of Labour-Exchange currency if you can't even guarantee the value of it even as log as it takes to spend or be paid in it.

Despite the fact that it's finite commodity-resource nature and near universal desirability make it a good, relativistic and reasonably deflationary measure of value of the inflation of the "current" measure of the value of the ever-growing prime commodity which is human labour, it's a totally clumsy, impractical, costly insecure and easily counterfeited excuse for the stably inflationary temporality of value necessary to/of a providable and easily portable and securable Medium of Labour-Exchange Currency-Token utility.

You simply cannot use another finite, limited (and likely monopolized already) commodity-resource (gold, silver or DaVinci paintings) to represent an infinite and limitless and ever growing commodity (the value of the sum of the fruits of all human labors). In such a national economy a third child robs the whole rest of the country (as so do the first two for a while).

What such a foolishly-pegged to another commodity-value dual-use conundrum in a nation's people's Labor Exchange Currency inevitably causes is assured monetary slavery! Sooner or later by means foul or fair one economic "winner (or boardroom-socialist group of them) will inevitably come close to owning all of the available gold or platinum or DaVincis etc and all of the means to produce/find any much more of it! Thereafter everyone in the economy must go to the "winners" cap in hand to rent from them either their token of "their gold" or their worthless fiat token that they mint which is backed only by some fraction of the influence of their unsurpassed counterfeiting wealths just to use a pay toilet!

Gold's really just a generic, second-rate Medium of Savings dangerous, troublesome and costly to stock/assay and exchange with, that is a poor substitute for truly rare and precious Mediums of Savings like fine art, antiques and collectables.

BTC marks the freeing emancipation of all of the humans on this planet from our nation's enslavement of us and all the fruits of all of our labors to their gold-Pharaoh masters. This will be the final global-human vs global-economic battle, and it is between us all and the Bilderberg enslavers.

Just in case of global thermonuclear war I'm keeping my gold, but I dumped all my silver months ago to buy Bitcoin.

Hopefully history will record that this crash was a pivotal global economic event, as it seems that the Tory-Trotskyite Federal Reserve Gold Pharaoh Mensheviks, flush with their countless boatloads of worthless "Our-Slaves-Owe-Us"- Note "quantitative counterfeit" bogus-treasury scrip, seem to have moved in on our BTC-Securitized Future Derivative Contracts to stake their Bilderberg Masters out a big position in Our gold-killing, highly utilitarian, durable, secure, untraceable and versatile new digital Medium of Labour-Exchange Currency, by hostile takeover, and just decided to perform a little "stress test" on it before they move in on our Reserve Exchanges for the final kill.

Then they hope to grab an enslavement monopoly on it like the one they have long enjoyed, capitalized from, derived from and molested us with employing their gold, which will surely be nearly obsoleted by it as a usable, deflationary "money" in and of itself. (anything proffered as "gold" may always just be plated tungsten)

BUT - Bitcoin has a SEVERE problem with "exchanges" that inanely want to try to behave as "stock markets" (gang-spikers with tire shops).

What they are doing with their "BTC-Securitized Future Derivative Contracts" now is:

• Punishing small buyers and all new "casual" users adopting the currency with the highest fees
  
  
• Punishing small sellers and all new "casual" and small retailers adopting (redeeming) the currency with the highest fees
  
  
• Rewarding speculative traders, leeching off of the daily spreads or ramps of the currency value with lower fees for greater churning "volumes over days" rewards
  
  
• Rewarding big, huge-trader Pharaohs for staking out far riskier out of bounds idle-preying positions, not actually expected to "exchange", that would facilitate steep uncontrollable risks to the currency value by extending sudden random ramps or slides to ludicrous and/or disastrous extremes.
  
  
• They are actually encouraging and rewarding speculation and volatility with their risky, counter-productive and suicidal, totally ignorant volume-discount fee nonsense.

This BTC future-securitized derivative-contract was intended as OUR transnational MEDIUM OF LABOUR-EXCHANGE CURRENCY not as somebody else's silly common commodity-resource share! (or wasn't it?  )

Well regulating the Bitcoin  future-securitized derivative-contract's currency value "automatically" is a simple trick that can easily be done through the trading (vs exchanging) fee structures. You simply punish people progressively and exponentially more through sliding fees for staking-out asks and bids further out of bounds, to negate the benefits of pump and dump, while still allowing a bit of churning reward for day-value trading and/or price reward for patient bargain-seeking bid-ask haggling.

The problem with the fiat nature of BTC-derivative trading is that "democracy" (even so-called "free" market laissez-faire) is no way to run a well regulated Supra-National Global Labour Exchange Currency system! The hallmark of a Adam Smith sort of Freed Market is that it is always well-regulated. The hallmark of the "stable currency" value of a Medium of Labour-Exchange (Currency) is it's retention of an assured (or assuredly increasing) value for the length of a contract and most-any exchanging or commercial transaction and the periods of it's saving.

You see a Bitcoin is simply a derivative that only represents the LOOT or SERVICES that the guy that you got it off, got out of you for it, and made off with. It is a fiat "futures derivative contract" that arguably has some but really has no certain inherent added-value. Like a "gold contract' or "mortgage backed security' (I love that last word) derivative it is a "BTC -securitized Future Derivative Contract" that merely allows you to keep, transfer it in, transfer it around or transfer it somewhere else to resell it there for whatever it may seem to be worth to the next guy, a minimum of an hour from now.

The challenge the Bitcoin Nation now has is to develop a self-regulating set of automatic trading (fiat value voting) rules that advantage, reward and encourage staid and conservative trade-exchange, over reasonable and tiny fractional ranges about current values, yet HARSHLY and PROGRESSIVELY, EXPONENTIALLY PUNISH out of range (more volatile) bidding and asking with exorbitantly prohibitive fees, thereby automatically attenuating, limiting and shutting down volatile ramp-ups and slides in the preciously guarded DURABLE VALUE of our new currency...

Everything is a "scam" unless you do your homework, and find out it's perfectly legal and legitimate.

Read this:  Bubbles with bitcoins
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175708.msg1832923#msg1832923

We are not doing anything nearly as lawless nor clearly as fraudulent as pawning off Mortgage Backed Security Future Derivative Contracts! Our contracts have real utility as a durably physical future security derivative.

Unless civilization and communication collapse tomorrow, gold is dead it's just that few really know about why it is destined to happen, how (perfectly lawful Bitcoin) or why.

I'm really certain they got my funds, though...

The withdrawal my exchange is holding-out on processing since last wednesday is now enough money to own 4X the BTC I ever traded with it.

Well, obviously, tracking their net positions, they halted trading, covered and resumed trading at what seems to be working at a support level, so hopefully everything will be fine, but a bit of patience with them would probably be not too much to ask. They could have just "MF Globalled".

Hopefully history will record that this crash was a pivotal global economic event, as it seems that the Tory Federal Reserve Gold Pharaoh Mensheviks, flush with their countless boatloads of worthless We-Owe-Them Note "quantitative counterfeit" scrip, seem to have moved in on the BTC-Securitized Derivative Contracts to stake their Bilderberg Masters out a big position in Our gold-killing, highly utilitarian and versatile new digital Medium of Labour-Exchange Currency, by hostile takeover, and just decided to perform a little "stress test" on it before they move in on the Reserve Exchanges for the final kill.

Then they hope to grab an enslavement monopoly on it like the one they have long enjoyed and on gold, which will surely be obsoleted by it.