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41  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation and Deflation of Price and Money Supply on: May 07, 2013, 03:34:31 PM

You should not attempt to describe the workings of bitcoin economy with a standard economic theory, because your interpretations will always be wrong.

BTC is a completely new form of money and thus requires the application of its own economic theory when describing what drives its value up or down.

And it's definitely not the currency exchange rates that create deflation and inflation in a BTC-based economy. It's the BTC spending that does it.

It's also worth noting that when we talk about exchange rate fluctuations, we imply appreciation/depreciation, not inflation/deflation.


Only nations, communities or groups with exclusive territories, assets, labourers, exports and imports can have an "economy" and a national (or local socially accepted) Medium of Labour Exchange "currency" for which there exists a "current foreign exchange value". Globes cannot have economies since they lack all of those things and (thus far at least) trade with no other globes. The planet is merely a Global Marketplace there is, and so far, can be no such thing as a "global economy". (unless you want to consider Liechtenstein, Bermuda, Belize, Switzerland and the Cayman Islands as "another planet" populated by racially superior "alien" boardroom-gold-pharaoh-socialist slave-owners)

For instance your "American" home (BTConomist's Kingdom) could have it's own Medium of Labour Exchange "BTCono-Dollar" currency based upon the assets, labour values, imports and exports of BTConomist's "subjects", that might be accepted by your neighbours as a local "foreign currency". Your little tribe and it's tribal economy might consist of you importing lawn equipment and exporting lawn maintenance and your wife might import beauty supplies and run a salon and your kids might paint houses, deliver papers and do lawns too, your nephews, aunts and uncles and in-laws may also become part of the families' "BTCono-Dollar" economy. Your families' little "economic kingdom" can do as it pleases as long as it pays it's communist rent-taxes to the private Federal Tory-Bilderberg Gold-Pharaoh Reserve Printing Companies' Pentagon war-communist Union of ZioNazi Socialist Republics within which it is imprisoned.

You could "back" your "BTCono-Dollars" with grass seed, house painting or lawn cutting jobs for instance, then everybody would know when your kids showed up with them just about how many popsicles to give them for one. If the BTConomist's Kingdom imports too many slave goods from the kingdom of Walmart, such that it must go into debt to a private plastic-counterfeit renting Vultures International Slavery Association outfit to whom you must pay 30% interest then you cannot afford to be "backing" too much exported currency for the neighbors around your 'hood, and your economy must increase it's exports. Now you might also Friedmanize ("monetize") your Walmart debts by printing up more BTCono-Dollars to pay off your wife and kids with, but sooner or later they are going to be all like "Where's the popsicles Tory Trotskyite Papa Friedman?" on your butt.

Unlike a "money" a "penny stock exchange-traded" Bitcoin is only an Over the Counter Funded Credit Swap Derivative that is only worth what the next guy wants to pay you for it, the next time it's cashed in, and that is all it ever can or will be worth. It certainly had a "funded cost" to you but what it's worth is, (exchange value) is unknowable until you are rid of it.

Appreciation and depreciation only apply to Mediums of Savings, which consist of rare fine arts, commodities or antiquities always absolutely certain to appreciate in exchange value, or, "bad" Mediums of Investment (like coal, whole used cars, or Tory-Trotskyite Red Chinese slave labour) doomed to be worth less than it was before. (monopolized-gold is only bulky, common-nuisance 3rd rate medium of savings) Labour is the PRIME RESOURCE which is expressed in and represented by an economies' Medium of Labour Exchange "currency". The gracefully inflating (depreciating minutely in concert with growth) exchange value "price" of a fair "currency" has a certain and direct impact on all prices over time, but it cannot (usually) strive to be a fair or good Medium of Savings or become as abused as a bad Medium of Investment.

It (Medium of Labour Exchange "currency") is (and must be) the central and most stably growing component of all valuations within a healthy, growing economy (where the citizens own and rent their own currency). In an unhealthy, diseased, private ex-gold Pharaoh Federal Reserve Monetary Labour Enslavement tyranny, all of the profits from reserve lending and counterfeiting are stolen by criminal Tory-Bilderberg Trotskyite oligarchs, and thus, armed-communist taxation robbery must be imposed (by the politicians they buy and own for nothing) to pay them their Trotskyite pounds of flesh. In that case the corruptly rented-private Medium of Labour Exchange currency must always (depreciate like a bad investment) inflate and all prices must also inflate, along with it, to ALWAYS PROFIT ONLY THEM, ALONE!

This phenomenon today is known as Neo-Keynesian Fascist-Friedmanism (aka Tory-Bilderberg Gold-Misesism) or "austere" urinate-down "voodoo economics".  It's simply a throw-back to Tory-Malthusian Gold-Mercantilism.

Try to avoid the silly temptation of confusing a "wealth" with a "money". In 1913 the results of the American Revolution and the Civil War were reversed and all became bonded slaves to the Transnational Trotskyite Tory-Bilderberg gold-pharaohs of London once again.

If exchange-traded Bitcoin Credit Swaps can somehow be made to work as well as a stable, liquid currency it means Global Human-Monetary Freedom from the private national-socialist bankstering tyrannies of the wealthy Pharaohs, once and for all, finally..

PS:

One “winning” wealthy Gold (or Bitcoin) Pharaoh, no matter how audacious his lifestyle, cannot “urinate down” a “Free Market” economy renovating his palaces. The power to counterfeit, loan and issue (from nothing) a fiat Labor Exchange Currency token is the power to corrupt. The Wealth of Nations (national economies) is their public property expressed and represented by the foreign-export fruits of all labors value of their publicly owned and issued “Medium of Labor Exchange Currency”. Maintaining and growing the ongoing exchange-value of its own economic “currency” is the public work of a nation, it is not ever to be regarded as the private toy-hobby of some “beneficent” private gang of boardroom-socialist Pharaohs.
42  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation and Deflation of Price and Money Supply on: May 06, 2013, 07:12:00 PM
I'm going to go ahead and predict that if the community doesn't come up pretty quick with a decentralized p2p system to issue notes and accounting entries on cryptocoin reserves, then bankers will do it, either new bankers or existing bankers.

Indeed a Bitcoin is nothing more than an exchange-traded  Over the Counter "Funded Credit Swap Derivative" that may work as a delayed-settlement funding mechanism of great utilitarian value and security but it can never ever be qualified as a liquid "money" that can be confidently exchanged at any guessable rate, without it being exchanged (cashed in for a national economic Medium of Labour Exchange with established stable liquidity) first.

Conducting business in Bitcoins is little more sane than spending and accepting Facebook shares would be.
43  Economy / Economics / Re: Smart Paper Makes Traceable Money Possible (one more reason to use Bitcoin) on: May 06, 2013, 06:43:43 PM
So... the paranoiacs who said the security strips could track you were just ahead of their time?

Indeed, and what a fine pickpockets paradise it shall be!  LOL
44  Economy / Economics / Re: Currency's value is decided by consensus on: May 06, 2013, 05:51:14 PM
People will accept small incremental inflationary increases over time but not a huge one at a single bite. Markets will accept price "bargains" without a blink, but will completely stall or erupt in boycotts of hostility over any sort of a "X" "crisis".


True, I noticed that normal people's tolerance for a price change is around a couple of percent, and that's also the reason most of the services charge a couple of percent

But sometimes foreign exchange rate can change as much as 20-50% in a year, so it's normal for bitcoin to flucturate even more

I think currently the consensus is that bitcoin is still in the price discovery mode, unless it reach the adoption for majority of IT interested people and provide enough liquidity at a much higher exchange price, the price will remain unstable, and there are many early adopters still think this is a bubble and they want to cash out to fiat when they see a fast exchange price rise

If one bitcoin worth 1 million dollar, then all the daily transactions will not shake the exchange rate too much, even those early adopters want to buy some island, they will just dump a couple of coins

And I do think 1 million dollar bitcoin could be possible because that is just a consensus needs to be reached among people, not necessary to have some real value behind it. Just like USD, no one will believe that 85 billion dollar worth nothing, but they are really created out of nothing every month



It's 100% true that a national economy's Medium of Labour Exchange "currency" is solely backed by what it's own people see as the Labour Value that it pays for. So a janitor makes $1200 an auto worker or brick layer $3,000 a doctor $8,000 and a banker's hard work is rewarded with $20-75,000 a week, and what those amounts buy makes the janitor the poor dude. the amount of money that the private Federal Reserve Gold-Pharaoh's printing company counterfeits to pass out to themselves to fix markets with and rent out to the governments that they own for the taxes they can extort is largely irrelevant until they start inflating everything with interest rates again.
45  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin. In no way deflationary. on: May 06, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
Atm Bitcoin is inflationary due to the new coins mined.
But in the long run Bitcoin is deflationary by the amount of coins lost.

The Bitcoin Other the Counter funded Credit Swap derivative is both wildly inlationary and wildly deflationary because it has no stable exchange-valuation, the number of BTC means squat to it's "inflationary or deflationary" exchange-values every 10 minutes, when those  exchange values are solely determined by an anarchistic gaggle of penny stock speculators on a penny stock market.

In fact even it's given exchange-value at a given second is merely notional since it is impossible to move any large amount of liquidity in BTC through a so-called "exchange" penny-stock market at or even near any given last-price for any reasonable period of time. For a large wallet to exchange BTC credit-derivatives for any genuine, stable Medium of Labour Exchange "currency" the seller must assume huge losses under-asking all current asking prices to obtain money as any buyer needs to assume huge losses over-bidding all current bidding prices to obtain obtain any substantial value of our funded credit swaps for it.

What's worse small speculative haggling over tenths of a BTC have as big an effect on it's inflationary/deflationary exchange-valuations as 50,000 lot bid/asks do. Even worse the Credit Swap Derivative's exchange value has little to do with what you paid it's last holder for it that he made off with, for it is only worth what a next owner feels willing to part with to you for it if/when he is good and ready to do so..

For a large institutional seller or buyer to use/move/exchange large liquidities of BTC it would cause a "penny-stock market panic" at the OTC Derivative "Exchanges" every and any day.
46  Economy / Economics / Re: Currency's value is decided by consensus on: May 06, 2013, 04:45:02 PM
I had an impression that everthing else's value can be decided by a market price expressed with the currency, but currency's value is only decided by consensus

For example, although 4x more money have been printed since 2008, and GDP growed at a very slow pace, the price of everything stayed relatively stable, because the consensus of USD's value has not changed, so "more USD = more wealth", not "more USD = lower USD value"

And once that consensus has been reached, without a fundamental change in the system, the value of the currency will not change

Same for bitcoin, I think its value should be decided by some kind of consensus, not supply and demand. It's arguable how to establish this consensus though

As Keynes described it, what you are talking about here are the phenomenon of "sticky prices". Nobody remembers when a big luxury home was $5,000 new (1850's) or when a decent brick one was still $16,000, or when a new Ford went down to $500 from $1,000 or a new economy car was $1999, but they all expect a decent home today to be $149 - $200,000 and an econobox car to be $17,000. People will accept small incremental inflationary increases over time but not a huge one at a single bite. Markets will accept price "bargains" without a blink, but will completely stall or erupt in boycotts of hostility over any sort of a "X" "crisis".

With Bitcoin Over the Counter (OTC) Funded Credit Swap Derivatives, the price and very pricing structure of this new "funding vehicle" is the main barrier to it's acceptance as any form of sort of a "money", period, let alone it's competitiveness as a validly dependable and stabilized Medium of Labour Exchange "Currency" in the global or any local marketplace.

While the rest of the planet's economies careen down the Neo-Keynesian toilet water-flush swirl of the endless "monetized-debt" inflation doomed to them by their suicidal Freidmanist Urinate-Down "voodoo" counter-economics, we genuinely still have a chance here to float this boat against their tidal waves of greedy private-monetarist economic self-destruction. When their current suspension of all interest rates ends it will be a global marketplace calamity such as the world has never seen.

Currently while one might wish to pretend that the "laws of supply and demand" or as you put it "some kind of consensus" are somehow "controlling" the wildly inflationary and deflationary hourly torture-spirals of it's unknown and unknowable moment to moment exchange-value, the Bitcoin Credit Swap Derivative is priced by the foolish and capricious antics of corrupt, greedy and mischievous penny stock market speculators on a deregulated wild-penny speculation market that poses as a "currency exchange". The number of Bitcoin Credit Swap Derivatives will never ever have as much of an impact on their credit-swap exchange-values as the brainless lunacy of this idiotic "come and take me over" penny-stock market "pricing" madness does, and will continue to do unless saner heads prevail.

Bitcoin OTC-fCS Derivative Pricing Problems:

The purely fiat price of purely fiat-valued Bitcoin Swap Derivatives is completely anarchic nonsense and currently deviates plus or minus 30% on an hourly, daily or weekly basis due to infantile penny-stock market speculators dancing it's exchange value around to feed their crazy antics with little-peanut bet-bids. Catastrophically, those who suffer most severely from this childish, stupid and inane "penny stock market" exchange valuation scheme are large clients with large wallets, who are the very market we so desperately wish to serve.

If one carefully looks at any chart on any given day one can clearly see that price valuation fluctuations have nothing to do with supply or demand volumes, and are totally a function of small-potato speculation biddings. Fee and bidding schemes are 100% of the problem.

In any normal Medium of Labour Exchange "currency" valuation, a money changer always has "reserve pools" much like barrels of money-notes to which he applies the day's or weeks most recent exchange rates. If a merchant, contractor or producer needs the foreign currency they can get a bucket or a few buckets or a few or a barrel full of them at the given rate. Not only that they can be fairly sure the exchange rates will stay relatively stable from day to day or week to week.

In the stupidly ignorant Bitcoin OTC Funded Credit Swap derivative market this has been made impossible. All Bitcoin OTCfCS buyers must wait for sellers willing to part with all that they need for a price/profit the sellers alone see fit and all Bitcoin OTCfCS  derivative sellers must wait for buyers willing to buy (all of) them at a price (or loss-bargain that) the buyer deems fit. This means that haggling over the price of a tenth of a BTC has as much of an affect on it's minute to minute exchange-value as the  supply or demand for 10,000 of them does.

Moreover it gets much much worse than this because in terms of value through-put it is simply unbearably tortuous and impossible for any large retailer to transfer any meaningful amount of liquidity through a so-called "Bitcoin Exchange" at any given price or range of them even if or during all in one day, let alone when doing up a bank deposit at close of business-day.  Trying to exchange 10,000 Bitcoins is impossible to do in any single transaction at any but the most punishingly low or high price, without inciting an instant "penny stock market" stampede. Invariably speculators will horn in on the large buy or sale until it can never be finished.

Such large volumes always leave huge price gulfs between bids and asks in their wakes inducing even further volatility

What these so-called "exchanges" need to do is to act like exchanges not like penny stock markets.

We need:

Tightly regimented bid/ask echelon-rungs about the current basis price to facilitate patient bargain seekers at low fees.
Higher fees for smaller transactions
Higher fees for more frequent transactions
Daily limits on or exponentially higher fees for high frequency bidding/bidders
Exponentially higher fees for further out of range ask echelons beyond the "normal" basis-centric range
Exceptions for trigger floor bid "price support" bids.

The idea is to encourage stable price-upwards growth at controlled rates while accommodating heavier wallets to be able to pass throughwithout causing huge waves or taking massive losses to negotiate a single order.


47  Economy / Economics / Re: Localizing a cryptocurrency: is it possible? on: May 04, 2013, 01:40:58 PM
First off the scarcity or plentifulness of a large crypto-swap-derivative Medium of Labour Exchange "currency" is irrelevant, especially if it is exchange-valued by a central authority. Moreover since it's value is backed by the values of the labours done for it, it need not represent nor also be something or anything else in particular that it is not. That said, it still must have some "pegged to the value something else" currency-exchange stability against other currencies in the outside world.

In today's world the most likely fairly stable and widely demanded candidate for pegging it's value against would be the value of oil, or of some other renewable portable energy products or baskets of them. I specify "renewable" because to peg an economic communities' Medium of Labour Exchange currency exchange value to the value of some other commodity of monopolizable rarity is a recipe for certain eventual debt slavery to the Pharaohs of that monopoly.

Bitcoin Over the Counter (OTC) Funded Swap Derivatives are exchange-valued the way a penny stock is valued. The exchange valu of a Bitcoin is determined solely by the mischievous stock speculator antics of it's deregulated penny-stock markets who pose as currency exchanges.  Their exchange value inflation or deflation has zero to do with the supply of them or with any increase in it.

The "mining operation" merely funds the transaction network that supports them.

One that was run by a public communities' central authority could be "reserved" like any other Medium of Labour Exchange token (greenback) system is thus making taxes obsolete, as the profit from the state loaning it would be the public income of those who used it. Just like Julius Caesar, Henry 1st, Washington and Lincoln did, and JFK might have.

Never make the mistake of confusing a wealth (the values of gold, oil or other such squat)  with a money (the values of all labours)
48  Economy / Economics / Re: One day.. like gold.. the price of bitcoin will be manipulated by banks on: May 04, 2013, 06:39:27 AM
Here is what I gather from precious metals.. especially gold: the price is heavily manipulated.

Well you need to realize that (these days anyway), the gold market is kept down by huge amounts of "naked shorting", a completely unethical trading practice, that for some odd reason is LEGAL... JP Morgan is finally being sued for naked shorting over the past 10-15 years. People claim that JP Morgan was allowed to do this because they are carrying water for the Fed. The key to this manipulation is that it all happens through futures markets. Futures markets for commodities (sort of) make sense because of production fluctuations, high cost of carry, and difficulty of physically moving the commodity. None of these issues effect BTC. Thus, a bitcoin futures market makes no sense - why would anyone purchase a promise to deliver BTC, when they could just get the coin?  

Point being, downing BTC prices won't work using the (known) techniques that are employed against the gold prices.

ROTFLMAO


A bitcoin is an Over the Counter (OTC) Credit-Swap (funded Credit Default Swap or fCDS).
To you, it is only worth what the last guy sold it to you for and made off with. You funded "his" credit for it and the next guy (is assumed to be willing to) fund yours!

The reason Bitcoins/Altcoin tokens are legal is because they are OTC derivatives. Otherwise they would be a Ponzi scheme.

Since the value is determined by a stupid "penny-stock market" that you can flood with worthless, private Federal Reserve Printing Company "They-Owe-Us Notes" and take over like a penny stock the Fed is doing this (manipulating it downward to take it all over) today...


Slow down there Dr. Maiden Lane - this is no FCDS. Any token of value is worth whatever you think you can trade it for.  From wiki:

A derivative is a financial instrument which derives its value from the value of underlying entities such as an asset, index, or interest rate.

I don't see it...

The underlying asset is the particular Bitcoin itself and it's transaction network, which are of both utilitarian value and intrinsic value.

The Funded Credit Swap value is the "exchange value" supplied to it by the penny stock markets that pretend to be "exchanges". You fund it's previous owners credit loss over his having obtained it and the next owner funds your credit loss on it, to obtain it from you.

This is also why it's perfectly also workable as a Medium of Labour Exchange, since a contractors credit loss is represented by his accepting it as payment (because of the developer's credit loss in obtaining it to pay him.)

Even only two counterparties can forever Funded Swap one back and forth the way Morgan and Goldman swap their (continuously in credit default) trading losses back and forth to finance them fixing various markets.  One side sells short, the other profits, then they reverse after their daily "arms length" fCDS swap is exchanged. It just lets them know how far to go into hock, that the other side will bear back to them.

With theirs (cDs) however, there is no "fund" at either end, the only intrinsic value is in a matched pair of perennially "Defaulted" day-loans that are never assumed nor discharged (by either party) who's values are just swapped back and forth.

This is ALSO how with very little or no actual worthless FRNs they can engineer a hostile take over and drive Bitcoin markets down again and again until they own all or the vast majority of the "penny shares" (Bitcoins)....

We need

- regimented tightly grouped and well populated marginal fee step-echelon bid/ask rungs about the current basis price, (to enable bargaining while still making economical large liquidity BTC-exchange transfers),

- onerous, exponentially increasing further out of range bid/ask price fees (excepting trigger "support buys", to penalize speculation) and

- onerous exponentially increasing daily trading frequency fees (again to penalize speculation).

along with higher minimum volume trades.
49  Economy / Economics / Re: The deflationary problem on: May 04, 2013, 06:17:48 AM
I think the inflation people have a trouble with is fiat fractional reserve lending.

Why?

Because if you fractionally lend money, that original money that was lent should in theory be distinguished from debt by having some essence.  The issue is with fiat the original money and the debt become indistinguishable when they monetize the debt by printing money.

If you lend based on gold, that original loan is still owed to you, so by default every loan that was fractionally created from gold is still the very same original gold. Therefore the money is distinguished from the debt because it must be returned to the lender since you cannot counterfeit it (print).


The metal smiths who originally invented "counterfeit reserve receipt-token fiat-bankstering" were enabled to do so because gold and silver were too fungible, risky and bulky to handle and secure in the marketplace. This technologically-harder to counterfeit stamped-coin "reserve fiat bankstering" actually began with cheaper "private" coinages all much like the Levitican's "Temple Shekels" whose intrinsic values and utility values actually were token for much-larger exchange valued assets as determined by the "fiat" of the "money-changers" currency exchanges. Bronze age coins were the antecedents of (far far cheaper and actually easier to counterfeit) paper phony-receipt-note "currencies" that came along much later.

It was Julius Caesar in 48 BC who first set up a "central" publicly owned for public profit "counterfeit reserve receipt-token fiat-bankstering" system for Rome that put the smiths out of business, making a single, common public currency standard and plentiful to facilitate commerce and industry, and (by public lending) to thus finance public projects free of armed-marauding public-shakedown "taxations". This was why he was assassinated.

The simple fact is that the "original debt" in "reserved" gold always was, is and always becomes continuously more and more irrelevant. Sure gold has an inescapable "exchange value" (due solely to it's ever-increasing rarity) but it's intrinsic and utilitarian values are actually squat, save as a decorative or luxury plating metal. It never or very, very seldom if ever needs to be "paid back", because that is why the pretty junk was all laboriously and hazardously carted-over and dumped-off into a "reserve" in the first place! It ends up there because nobody can bear with the nasty bothers of dealing with it.

You see many people with wheelbarrows full of gold out car shopping? Or truckloads of gold looking for a new house? As a "money" gold has been practically obsolete for well over 3 hundred years.

Reserve bankstering works and has always worked just fine, because a Medium of Labour Exchange is actually backed by the labours that it's earning has, or spending will, represent, ALONE!

In other words, it (a "money") is simply an Exchange Tokenage representative of Labour Values performed or performable, period. It does not ALSO have to be anything else that it is not!

As Julius Caesar, Henry 1st, George Washington and Abe Lincoln (and JFK might also have) proved all you need is a good token supply that is publicly owned, issued and rented-out, who's (hopefully growing) supply keeps up with (hopefully growing) labour force quality and size demands, in order to have perfectly fine "money" and a perfectly fine Freed Market economy (freed from counterfeit private gold-receipt slavery to private gold-Pharaohs)


The same applies with bitcoin fractional lending as does with gold.  Pre-programmed inflation in bitcoin should behave nothing like fiat inflation, because the debt cannot be monetized.  The debt must be returned to the lender.

And if you notice throughout history gold has inflated and will continue to inflate, but since gold mining requires energy, as bitcoin mining does, the inflation is beneficial to its value because it allows for a larger adoption base and solves the first adopter problem.  

Inflation is not the enemy of bitcoin.

A Bitcoin is a fiat digital high security internet game casino gambling token of excellent utilitarian value and marginal intrinsic value but it has no exchange value AT ALL. It's inflationary and deflationary "assigned fiat exchange value" properties have nothing whatsoever to do with the supply of them, nor the growth or shrinkage of that supply, and they never ever will! Mining Bitcoins merely finances it's transaction network, period.

A Bitcoin is an "deregulated" Over the Counter derivative. The "exchange-value" (price) inflation and deflation of Fiat Bitcoins has squat to do with any "monetary supply" of them and (foreseeably) never, ever will!

Penny Stock-Market (pretend-exchanges) speculators and their greedy and mischievous fiat-antics capriciously determine the latest (stale) fiat exchange-value of the last fiat Bitcoin that past their way.

The actual "price" of any given Bitcoin remains forever unknown and unknowable until after it has been re-sold (re-exchange valued) to the next guy, in the future.

A Bitcoin functions exactly in much the same way as a "funded" Credit Default Swap (fCDS). You fund it's former owner's "loss" (costs) on it, and the next owner funds yours.

A Bitcoin is a commercial "over the counter (OTC) derivative" of the current-past value and future possible values of itself and it's network, which are only (at best) completely deregulated commercial resources, and neither "commodity futures" nor "securities" as per the CFMA of 2000. This is why, with it's "market" exchange-value changing every two seconds, it is useless as a "money" because you need an hour to accept and/or spend it. It's exchange-values are really only very useful as a delayed-exchange "funding" medium.

The intrinsic and utility values of the "futures derivative swap-contract token" no matter how attractive or quantitatively prearranged, are materially too small to be any more than a very, very minor factor in it's (inflationary or deflationary) exchange-value (aka price)

Buying a Bitcoin futures derivative swap-contract token is simply gambling that the value of it's current "fiat" exchange-value will be close to or less than the value of it's future "fiat" exchange-value.

Yes inflation (and deflation) are ALWAYS everybody's and everything's enemy!
50  Economy / Economics / Re: Currency's value is decided by consensus on: May 03, 2013, 06:42:05 PM
In California gold rush, more gold did not cause inflation, it created the whole west coast economy, because in people's consensus, gold is value, and that consensus seldom changes

I don't believe you are drawing a 100% accurate conclusion here. It wasn't because gold has value by consensus, it was because mining for gold was a profitable opportunity. It was a job. It created infrastructure based around a currency that could be produced to facilitate that infrastructure. People were willing and able to work, but the infrastructure was not there. Gold provided the lubricant.

Just by doing a quick google search I found this article: http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/gold-and-deflation-a-trick-question/ it talks about how the purchasing power of gold actually falls during recessions. It isn't the gold itself, it is what the gold represents: a medium of exchange. It does not fix the greater problems of money and whatever it is that causes business cycle-like events.

I read an article awhile back about a time when Switzerald stopped coining gold in an effort to keep the value of its currency more stable, as the gold supply at the time was inflating quickly. And it worked. It just goes to show that gold has its failings just like every other currency to date. It is not some magical standard by which all currency should be held, it is just a very compelling case of the regression theorem of money.


In a depression it is a buyers paradise, but you need "coin of the realm" not gold.

You see in a depression nobody has a nickel a job or an income.  You got rich who've consolidated and you got poor who've got squat.

Your gold is only worth what "the rich" decide they wanna pay for some more of it.

Art, antiques, rare minerals/metals and collectables are your "first rate" Mediums of Savings, not commodity metals. Silver may be a successful high end barter tool. Debt backed paper will be near-worthless. But oil is the new "black gold" this time.


During the gold rush and the last depression paper was "Gold-debt backed" to the private Fed Gold Pharaohs' Debt-Note Printing Company by bond-tax slavery. The US treasuries' gold was then looted by the Gold Debt Pharaohs out their "gold window" until Nixon closed it, because it was all gone. They had been renting it out and re-hypohecating it as well, till now all the paper gold is just worthless MBS derivative-junk they keep floating with mountains of counterfeit Debt Backed Notes.

The only thing that "backs" Fed Debt Receipt Notes now is that

- Everybody else are devaluing their (Central Bankster) Debt Receipt Notes in lock step with the Fed's.
- And they are "pegged" to now-"Peak Oil" values which are priced and traded in them (Fed Debt Notes) alone.

In the last depression people who bought gold mining stocks prospered heavily by dividend-income and stock value, all others lost and kept barely losing or breaking even.

This time it will be oil explorers/drillers, and with government-socialist war-communist Capitol gains taxes everywhere, you'll have to move to a peaceful little out of the way nation to profit from them.

51  Economy / Economics / Re: One day.. like gold.. the price of bitcoin will be manipulated by banks on: May 03, 2013, 10:12:08 AM
Here is what I gather from precious metals.. especially gold: the price is heavily manipulated.

Well you need to realize that (these days anyway), the gold market is kept down by huge amounts of "naked shorting", a completely unethical trading practice, that for some odd reason is LEGAL... JP Morgan is finally being sued for naked shorting over the past 10-15 years. People claim that JP Morgan was allowed to do this because they are carrying water for the Fed. The key to this manipulation is that it all happens through futures markets. Futures markets for commodities (sort of) make sense because of production fluctuations, high cost of carry, and difficulty of physically moving the commodity. None of these issues effect BTC. Thus, a bitcoin futures market makes no sense - why would anyone purchase a promise to deliver BTC, when they could just get the coin? 

Point being, downing BTC prices won't work using the (known) techniques that are employed against the gold prices.

ROTFLMAO


A bitcoin is an Over the Counter (OTC) Credit-Swap (funded Credit Default Swap or fCDS).

To you, it is only worth what the last guy sold it to you for and made off with. You funded "his" credit for it and the next guy (is assumed to be willing to) fund yours!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000

The reason Bitcoins/Altcoin tokens are legal is because they are OTC derivatives. Otherwise they would be a Ponzi scheme.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175708.msg1832923#msg1832923

Since the value is determined by a stupid "penny-stock market" that you can flood with worthless, private Federal Reserve Printing Company "They-Owe-Us Notes" and take over like a penny stock the Fed is doing this (manipulating it downward to take it all over) today...



52  Economy / Economics / Re: FED refuses to return back Germany gold after an failed audit on: May 03, 2013, 09:32:59 AM
just an innocent question, why fuck would sovereign state store its national treasure in another sovereign state's vaults, anybody?

Because it had become a looted, occupied, carved up and divided police state territory after losing the war, and never recovered it. Degaulle recovered France's, then "IT" happened...


http://goldratefortoday.org/history-gold-part-3-bretton-woods-system/


and now it's happening again

http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/gold_dollar_France_Sarkozy_de_Gaulle_crisis_111020072

There is no more "US Gold" there hasn't been and there still isn't, it was mostly all on paper to begin with and that was lent out and stolen and then the dud loan/bonds and their "derivatives" were/have been and still are being "hypothecated" a hundred times over.

I explain "derivatives" here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175708.msg1832923#msg1832923
53  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin tax in Canada! on: May 01, 2013, 01:02:06 PM

What if CRA got smart and started to troll the block chain and applied a little network analysis to it? Forensic accountants are accustomed to ferreting out tax cheats and are used to their schemes of sending money from one place to the next.

All the steel and concrete in the cores of tall skyscrapers would all be "melting" at once from wayward flying-pork barbecue accidents.
54  Economy / Economics / Re: Gold is worse than fiat on: April 30, 2013, 04:24:44 PM
I'm not sure this is exactly what you guys are talking about (since i just glanced through)but one of the interesting things I learned in econ class was

 aggregate income = aggregate expenditure

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggregate_expenditure

It took me some time to wrap my head around when I first learned it

Well that has developed into a "GDP/NX dynamics theory" of BOTH the classical and monetarist schools of thought that leads to an entirely different misinterpretation than what it rather clumsily attempts to point out. The problem comes from mis-stating it's deeply flawed temporal and qualitative false assumptions. It would do better to scientifically restate their flawed notions in this way:

aggregate past/potential incomes =< (tend to limit or "kinda must be sorta" less than or equal to) aggregate past/potential expenditures

On the surface you may rationalize such a weak premise to be somewhat generally true, but in fact even stated in this far more refined manner it is still not only a temporally false assumption, it totally ignores the entirely separate commodity-resource class of savings wealths.

A non-income or a non-expenditure that is drawn from or placed into reserve or pool of savings-wealth presents a huge surplus or defect that falls entirely outside of it's temporally myopic suppositions. Ergo any "snapshot" of "aggregation" is merely a "fly by survey" of only what newly or recently appears to be blowing around on the surface, ignoring all that is in the vaults.


This arises from both theories (ironically Smith and Keynes) hypothetical avoidance of not only the distinction between a wealth and a money, it also reflects their failure to distinguish a Labour from a Saving or an Investment. Keynes at least tried to distinguish an (only public) Investment from the three.

Leaning on the supply or the demand side of the income or expenditure aggregation potentials is based entirely on the false assumption of the "limits" supposedly imposed by not properly differentiating savings-wealths, investment-wealths and (labour-exchange)money-wealths. That confusion arose from bankers alone falsely claiming to have a "monopoly on the current savings component" of the "aggregate's" data.

People save Labour Exchange Tokens in mattresses and cookie jars as well as in fine art, antiques, collectables, emeralds, fast cars, big boats, fried chicken recipes and even gold. Not just in bigger taxed palaces or bank accounts.

As a "money" is a Labour Exchange Medium because labours are the Prime Resource it's exchange-valuation represents, that aggregate valuation must be "elastic" to a market driven supply/demand price.

As a "rare commodity resource" is a Savings Medium because it's rare components are ever-rarer diminishing supplies with regard to the ever expanding demands of the Prime Resources, it's aggregate's valuations are always certain to increase.

As a "general commodity resource" is a speculative Investment Medium because it's supplies and demands are valued by other supplies and demands it's past present nor future aggregate values are never certain nor stable.  

( aggregate potential incomes &&|| (and/or) aggregate potential expenditures ) <= (tend to limit or are always less than or equal to) aggregate real wealths

Since nobody really knows or can honestly guesstimate the "aggregate sums" of all "real" reserved, illiquid, liquid or borrowed/borrowable wealths there is essentially no "hard" limit to either of the other two "contained potential aggregates".

It all depends upon the applications and ingenuities of the flourishing (or atrophying) of the Prime Resources, which means "are you empowering or enslaving people?".
55  Economy / Economics / Re: Gold is worse than fiat on: April 30, 2013, 06:48:55 AM
You know I've been considering this definition of yours and I don't think Labor exchange is really the defining quality of money.  Simply consider the case of an economy ware no one is a wage earner, everyone is self employed and sells goods or services to each other (such as a butcher, a backer and a candle-stick maker).  No one pays or receives wages but money is self evidently possible.

Rather I favor the definition as "A universally accepted extinguisher of all dept in a society", now the universal part is key because that means it's accepted in payment of taxes and in reality taxes will always be the driver behind a money system.  Any society with enough complexity to need money is going to have some kind of taxation even if it's very informal like "The chieftain calls upon the people to give", and you need to have some liquid token you can pay that debt in.  And once the chieftain will take it then everyone else will too because everyone's going to eventually have a need to pay a dept to said chieftain.

Sure in TODAY'S economy the buying and selling of labor is the single largest 'market' in the whole economy, so big we don't even recognize it as such and nothing could be considered money if it didn't exchange for labor but it needs to be bigger then that to really be money.  If I could get payed in a token but not pay my taxes in it then its not money.  Many old turn of the century mill operators would pay employees with some kind of company script that was not usable to pay taxes and was not by my definition money (such practices are fortunately outlawed now).

I didn't either until I sat back and considered that the hypothesis of labour is the foundation of all economic activities. Without it alone, nothing ever "happens".

Your butcher must obtain handle and store carcasses, carve cuts of meats from them, sell them and package them for his customers and pay his store's bills etc, regardless of wether it's just his name over the door or not. Bakers and Candle makers are no different. Hiring somebody to do your job is labour too, just like shopping for a house or a car is. Not all "labours" are rewarded and certainly few are "equal" but that does not impact on their "values". Indeed the costs of all labours needed to produce a product are not and often need not be reflected in it's price, as when a Cadillac AC system finds it's way into a cheap Chevy

Doesn't a great stock pick "cost you more" because you had to do more labours finding out about it? Even pushing a button, firing a bum, selling a BTCitcoin or finding a fishing lure is a labour. Most labourers have to do 5 or 10 labours a day before they can even get out of the house to go off and slavishly "bruncheon" in their boardrooms.

Indeed many labours are not actually even "productive" in most any regard. Most tank and ICBM and bomb makers still nonetheless produce outputs that have intrinsic, utilitarian and most definitely value-added "exchange" values regardless of the market demands of those who depend upon or "benefit" from their uses...


The sort of tax-money you speak of was already invented by King Henry 1st back in the 1100 it was done to foil the counterfeiting bankster-goldsmiths and built Britain until the Rothschild bankster coup in 1826 finally pushed it back into abject economic "counterfeit rented-gold-debt receipt" slavery.


Around 1100 AD King Henry 1st resolved to take the power of money away from the lenders. He invented one of the most unusual money systems in history. It was called the Tally Stick System. This system lasted until 1826. The Tally System was adopted to avoid the monetary manipulation of the goldsmiths. Tally Sticks were merely sticks of wood with notches cut on one edge of the stick to indicate denominations. Then the stick was split lengthwise so that both pieces still had a record of the notches.

The king kept one half to protect against counterfeiting. The other half would be spent into the economy and circulate as money. Under this system money could not be manipulated, and it could not be stolen. No other form of money had worked as well, and for so long as Tally Sticks. The British Empire, which was the most powerful nation in the world, was built on the Tally Stick System.


Henry was the first dude to figure out the best reason to "also" make a "money" represent something else that it was not.

...And he was no doubt greatly pleased to see "his slaves" spending all those "tax receipts" of His, too.  Grin Grin

In every part and aspect of all economic activities you will find and/or exploit the hidden values of past, present and/or future labours.

The PRIME RESOURCE of "all labours" is what an "economy" is. All else is just "stuff labours bring or do with them".


Even writing you this answer is a labour, but you certainly earned it  LOL
56  Economy / Economics / Re: Gold is worse than fiat on: April 30, 2013, 04:39:36 AM
The core question is: Who give them the right to print fiat money without anything valuable backing it?

That's a matter of opinion.

Do you say that when any person does any work of any value that is not represented by what he is payed?

When you get paid your valuable efforts alone are all that is needed to "back the value" of the Medium of Labour Exchange token that you receive for it. Everyone else who works for those same tokens will recognize your work that your "money" represents, by virtue of it being in your possession to use.

Do not confuse wealth (diamonds, emeralds, rubies, daVinci paintings, 57 Chevy BelAirs, gold, silver, Quagga skins) with "money"!

A "money" is simply a medium of exchange that is "the" Medium of Labour Exchange "Currency" that your local economy uses and supports the value of, by the values of all that it's labour's produce.

Rare, antique "wealths" are uncommon (hoarded and monopolized) Mediums of Savings-Curiousities, not common (broadly strewn about) Medium of Exchange-Tokens

Face it, very, very few "jobs" anyone ever does, are ever worth a "wealth"!  Roll Eyes

Why not "back" your sort of "loaned-wealth-money" with sirloin steaks, or concrete, or gasoline, or Viagra, or steel, or leather, or travertine marble, or Toyotas, or Rolls-Royce Wraiths? Why does a Labour Exchange Currency also need to be something else, that it is not, to you?

The PRIME RESOURCE is labour and that is what a "money" pays for, and that alone is what "backs it" and what it represents. Being able to exchange it for other things both common and rare is just a bonus. Utilizing a "money" affords all with a choice of what "wealths" they prefer to earn for themselves through their labours.

Would you rather that your employer paid you in scrap aluminum or vegetable oil?

Believe it or not lots of people have zero use for gold, they don't need it, don't like it, don't want any and would much rather have their "money backed by" something they can watch The Simpsons on. (like a wikked GPU)
57  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin tax in Canada! on: April 29, 2013, 05:04:53 PM
HOW CAN THEY CHECK OR VERIFY HOW MUCH YOU'VE GAINED UNLESS IT'S IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT?

They can't. And they probably don't care.

Though I think they might ask a few questions if you get a new car from somewhere...

It would be a hopelessly byzantine nightmare for them to uncover maybe a few bucks in missing taxable income on to tax for their Tory-Bilderberg Trotskyite Menshevik permanent war communist masters.  It'd cost CRS more money in wages to sort out than it could ever allow them to steal to finance their criminal waging of unending permanent war-communism upon non-Saudi Muslims all over the planet with.

They'll do much better to just spend those funds at their Tory Ministry of Permanent War Communism training their marauding war-communist troops on teaching better opium growing and learning better opium smuggling techniques.
58  Economy / Economics / Re: List of bitcoin hostile banks. [edit] mod please consider stickying this thread on: April 29, 2013, 04:22:08 PM

Chase, BoA, Capital One.... I say avoid them all.  I've had accounts with all three, and bad experience with each.  Now I only use local credit unions.  And an Amex card.

Any Tory-Bilderberg Trotskyite Bankster who is not hostile to BTCitcoin needs to be locked up in a room and forced to listen to Milton Friedman lectures at one of their neo-Mercantilist "global Bilderberg Reich" neo National-Socialist (neoNazi) Economic "FEMA Re-education Camps".

The Universal BTCitcoin Free Market Money is the fabled New Economic World that is to replace their old, bankrupted through fraud and vile permanent-war-communist corruption debt-enslaved ones.

Never forget William Wilberforce!

These terrorist Tory-Bilderberg Trotskyite Menshevik permanent-war-communists don't need our great, great, great grandchildren's debt payments, they just want to keep debt enslaving us all, to them, forever...

We are all Debt Slavery Abolitionists, get with the program!
59  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin tax in Canada! on: April 29, 2013, 04:02:45 PM
Yes that whole taxing bitcoin thing is BS, and it is going to be difficult for them to catch it but I mean if for example I have a steady income of 500$ per week and in 2-3 years when bitcoins are worth more, I cash out some of it to partially pay a car let's say. Wouldn't the CRA be like hummm that's weird he just got 20k deposited and it's signed CaVirtex... Wouldn't they come after me?

I imagine that would result in a quick audit if you didn't report that as income.  Hints why companies that accept bitcoin or will buy something for you (bitspend) are becoming a lot more popular now that there's a lot of people that have suddenly made a good amount of money with bitcoin but would prefer to avoid paying taxes on it.

They would need to be doing an audit already to find such a bank statement.

Who's to say you didn't send emt@libertybit money to get a snowblower (that broke) or receive money from acitelecom for your old boat or camping equipment (you lost money on)? Or when those transactions occurred in relation to some "exchange value of a BTCitcoin" that maybe you didn't even get or give that day?

Of course if you are foolish enough to attempt SINGLE $20,000 transactions (over/close to $9999.00) you are going to draw yourself a big "drug money launderer" red flag right out on the track....
60  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin tax in Canada! on: April 29, 2013, 03:57:18 PM

use your wallets and transfers at all those exchanges you can, often, problem solved...


Yes that whole taxing bitcoin thing is BS, and it is going to be difficult for them to catch it but I mean if for example I have a steady income of 500$ per week and in 2-3 years when bitcoins are worth more, I cash out some of it to partially pay a car let's say. Wouldn't the CRA be like hummm that's weird he just got 20k deposited and it's signed CaVirtex... Wouldn't they come after me?

Open Lybit and MtGox CAD accounts and use your wallet too. Nobody could tell you weren't also trading baseball cards or selling homemade jam, and where when how or how much BTC went or came from there or here or when or anything else for you or anyone else you deal with, that has to do with your BTC.
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