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Author Topic: Butterfly Labs is going to give lifetime warranty  (Read 7538 times)
ab8989
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December 08, 2012, 10:04:19 AM
Last edit: December 08, 2012, 10:36:43 AM by ab8989
 #81

Switching cores off is a useful technique to be used on chips that have huge die sizes ( 200mm2 and up ) where defect probabilities go up and for each defect you either have to throw a very expensive chip to bin or do something else that also might cost big money. The disabling a core is also an expensive solution because it needs a lot of engineering and testing.

I believe this is not useful for BFL because the die sizes are so small making each chip so cheap to produce that is much more economical to just throw the faulty ones to bin rather than trying to do something clever with them. The small die size also means that defect probabilities are much smaller than on bigger dies as the defect probability is some constant multiplied with the die size.

Pulling some numbers from my ass: Not being able to switch cores off could cost them 50 chips each worth $3. How much engineering would you like to do to save $150? The situation is totally different if we are talking about saving 10000 defective chips each worth $200.
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December 08, 2012, 05:24:25 PM
Last edit: December 08, 2012, 07:33:42 PM by 2112
 #82

Switching cores off is a useful technique to be used on chips that have huge die sizes ( 200mm2 and up ) where defect probabilities go up and for each defect you either have to throw a very expensive chip to bin or do something else that also might cost big money. The disabling a core is also an expensive solution because it needs a lot of engineering and testing.

I believe this is not useful for BFL because the die sizes are so small making each chip so cheap to produce that is much more economical to just throw the faulty ones to bin rather than trying to do something clever with them. The small die size also means that defect probabilities are much smaller than on bigger dies as the defect probability is some constant multiplied with the die size.

Pulling some numbers from my ass: Not being able to switch cores off could cost them 50 chips each worth $3. How much engineering would you like to do to save $150? The situation is totally different if we are talking about saving 10000 defective chips each worth $200.
The engineering required is near zero. Basically a gated clock buffer instead of plain clock buffer. And a single register wide enough to store those "clock enable" bits for each hashing core.

The overall design is extremely repetitive. The first constraint is thermal. The second one is power distribution rail bounce caused by the huge number of simultaneous switches. Gating the clock would be a standard hardware debugging technique for such a project. I could say that not including clock gating would be a design mistake. The primary objective is to facilitate debugging. Defect tolerance is an additional benefit obtained for free.

Again, the chip is so repetitive and so self-testing, that standard debugging aids (like JTAG) are nearly worthless. The chip is almost an analog or mixed-signal power chip: the primary constraints are thermal and parasitic impedances.

Edit: Furthermore, I think none of the Bitcoin ASIC manufacturers can afford to invest time and money into a proper chip testing. I'm thinking that all packaged chips will be soldered into the mining boards and the final testing will be in-situ. I don't even think that an investment into the proper test equipment would be worthwhile from the engineering point of view. All in all, those chips are just lottery ticket printing machines, it doesn't make sense to test if some rare tickets are missing or mangled. Each winning ticket is worth something for just a couple of minutes maximum.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
ab8989
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December 09, 2012, 03:56:01 AM
 #83

I believe you are making the common mistake of only counting interesting engineering and I agree, that is almost nonexistent in here. However in a proper ASIC engineering there is huge amount of non-interesting engineering especially when testing is involved. I also agree that BFL is probably skimping on the testing capabilities and that is another reason why you do not want to take on tasks that rely heavily on the testing to get them to work.

Also when talking about the technique of switching off cores I was not talking about BFL, but mainly thinking about applications where this kind of technique could theoretically make some sense meaning designs 1000 times bigger and more complicated and in there adding stuff in there is also 1000 times more complicated than in simpler designs but again in such small designs this makes absolutely no sense from economical point of view. You simply do not lift a finger trying to chase a savings of grand total of $150. There are other things 100 times more important to worry about. If we would be employed by BFL, even this discussion we were having in here would have cost the company more than $150 and we haven't even started actual work.

I believe normal ASIC manufacturing process involves testing the chips either before or after packaging and shipping only known working chips to customers. Many customers do not do inhouse testing the ASIC chips separately and neither tests the 100 other kinds of non-ASIC chips that go on to the PCB, but just solders them all on there and after that performs the testing for the full PCB. It is also possible that the defect on the ASIC is such that is totally unfunctional and goes up puff in smoke and you really do not want to trash many fully populated PCBs by having such chips soldered on so you need to separate somehow the faulty chips you want to use from ones you do not want to touch.
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