Any country with no-chargeback cards?

[Kluge]

I'm kind of stunned there's still no alternative to people wanting alternative forms of credit and debit cards. Right now in the US, you basically have three choices - reloadable debit, debit linked to bank, and credit. While they're all funded differently, they all work on the merchant's side roughly the same (except in fees and in some cases, when merchants actually receive the money they were paid).

This obviously doesn't work with companies which can't afford the risk of chargebacks nor want the high fees and long waits of receiving funds of plastic processors. -So why is it so difficult to eliminate chargebacks? Fraud is easy to beat with technology. Right now, to fraudulently use plastic, you either need a horribly-weak 4-digit PIN code and the physical card (or the data on the strip and a way to "spoof" the card), or website credentials to use the card (the same risk applies to websites which allow linked bank accounts) and SOMETIMES either a 3-digit CSV code, or sometimes a separate credit card password registered with the credit card company.

Well - why can't I be issued a Yubikey or similar, and be required to use that at ATMs and for online transactions? Poof, 90%+ of fraud eliminated, which eliminates the need for chargebacks given every other potential use of chargebacks should be referred to an independent third-party arbitrator or court. Is the problem here companies, or is there an explicit law prohibiting disallowing chargebacks? Are there any countries with a culture, infrastructure and/or government where no-chargeback credit/debit cards exist?

[empoweoqwj]

In Thailand, money for online shopping is normally sent bank account to bank account. So no chargebacks there.

Yubikeys would just add to the overhead of online shopping with credit / debit cards. People lose them all the time, they stop working, they get stolen, who wants to manage dozen yubikeys they have to keep safe /working else they can't operate online?

As as merchant I have always hated chargebacks, as they always tend to favour the card holder. We used to get massive fraud from several countries (Vietnam most notably for some reason) on our domain registration site, nearly put us out of business a couple of times. Ended up having to screen every single registration very carefully, not at all efficient when we only made a few bucks on a registration.

One of the many reasons I love bitcoins is the non-reversible nature of the transactions.

Chargebacks in the current "shopper is always right" mode is a relic from the credit / debit card age. The future of online shopping dispute resolution will be entirely different and fairer to all parties.

[empoweoqwj]

I'm kind of stunned there's still no alternative to people wanting alternative forms of credit and debit cards. Right now in the US, you basically have three choices - reloadable debit, debit linked to bank, and credit. While they're all funded differently, they all work on the merchant's side roughly the same (except in fees and in some cases, when merchants actually receive the money they were paid).

This obviously doesn't work with companies which can't afford the risk of chargebacks nor want the high fees and long waits of receiving funds of plastic processors. -So why is it so difficult to eliminate chargebacks? Fraud is easy to beat with technology. Right now, to fraudulently use plastic, you either need a horribly-weak 4-digit PIN code and the physical card (or the data on the strip and a way to "spoof" the card), or website credentials to use the card (the same risk applies to websites which allow linked bank accounts) and SOMETIMES either a 3-digit CSV code, or sometimes a separate credit card password registered with the credit card company.

Well - why can't I be issued a Yubikey or similar, and be required to use that at ATMs and for online transactions? Poof, 90%+ of fraud eliminated, which eliminates the need for chargebacks given every other potential use of chargebacks should be referred to an independent third-party arbitrator or court. Is the problem here companies, or is there an explicit law prohibiting disallowing chargebacks? Are there any countries with a culture, infrastructure and/or government where no-chargeback credit/debit cards exist?

you might want to edit your sig as well. inputs.io is so ...... out of business

[escrow.ms]

People can't do chargeback in india easily.

[deisik]

I'm presently trying to get my money back through chargeback as a buyer in Russia...
They (in my bank) said they had issued a chargeback, but I'm still not credited. So in theory it works but in practice... lol

[Kluge]

Thanks for responses. In places where there are no chargebacks, are there any merchants still refusing to accept any major forms of payment for services due to any type of similar issues? -Like in India, do the BTC exchanges accept credit/debit card deposits?

you might want to edit your sig as well. inputs.io is so ...... out of business

I'm a greedy bastard. I'll wait until my next month's up and take the very slim chance of partial payment within a few decades. Have nothing else to put there and it's doing no harm. 

[jubalix]

I have always wondered this in the bitcoin world, how do you get the supplier to perform?

eg I buy laptop online send btc he does not perform. This seem to be a disturbingly regular event for online service such as wallets and exchanges that just have their btc disappear.

I suppose trusted escrow will be the new "banks" until that escrow runs off or is hacked.

[Kluge]

I have always wondered this in the bitcoin world, how do you get the supplier to perform?

eg I buy laptop online send btc he does not perform. This seem to be a disturbingly regular event for online service such as wallets and exchanges that just have their btc disappear.

I suppose trusted escrow will be the new "banks" until that escrow runs off or is hacked.

Sure - and what credit card companies and Paypal act as, in effect, is a kind of escrow service, whether they're choosing to be, or forced to by law. Most companies taking plastic won't actually pay merchants for weeks (or months) after they ship product to the customer, and sometimes seize merchant's funds. At least here, it's one more area where law enforcement is semi-privatized, where government sets the rules and forces companies to enforce them at their own expense.

An automated escrow service isn't much more different than a debit card processor, except that it's much more time-efficient for the merchant in most cases (assuming the merchant has a script to automatically mark an item as shipped in the escrow service when they mark it as shipped in their own systems), because the merchant receives funds when the customer marks the item as received and releases escrow, instead of waiting weeks or months for a "grace period" where the customer can initiate a chargeback ends. It's a much more organic and precise process than what currently exists, because Bitcoin is a much more secure, verifiable payment method - but there's no explicit reason an automated escrow service couldn't turn into a more conventional processor, where they have long waits for merchants to receive funds and allow the customer to initiate a chargeback.

[justusranvier]

I have always wondered this in the bitcoin world, how do you get the supplier to perform?

eg I buy laptop online send btc he does not perform. This seem to be a disturbingly regular event for online service such as wallets and exchanges that just have their btc disappear.

I suppose trusted escrow will be the new "banks" until that escrow runs off or is hacked.

That's an excellent question.

I suppose somebody should invent a solution for that.

We can do business across borders, yet government-provided contract enforcement mechanisms don't function across borders.

It's almost like we need a private commercial law system, specifically designed to fill in those gaps.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I have always wondered this in the bitcoin world, how do you get the supplier to perform?

eg I buy laptop online send btc he does not perform. This seem to be a disturbingly regular event for online service such as wallets and exchanges that just have their btc disappear.

I suppose trusted escrow will be the new "banks" until that escrow runs off or is hacked.

Buy from someone who's rep is worth far more than a laptop?

If NewEgg accepted Bitcoins tomorrrow with 2% off everything in their store today and everday would you worry about non delivery?  What if amazon.com did?  I wouldn't.  Both companies have spent a small fortune building their brand and reputation.

[justusranvier]

Buy from someone who's rep is worth far more than a laptop?

Reputation systems are useful, but we can do better...

[granolageek]

If you're in a civil law country, google "lex mercatoria". If you're in a common law country google "Pie Powder Court". If you're one of the other 5 billion people, find a law geek and explain the issue. There was a way.