A quick question. What would happen to my Bitcoin balance after BU is activated?

[deisik]

As I get it, BU is going to use the same blockchain that Core now uses, right?

And if I understand that point correctly, I should have the same amount of new bitcoins as I had at the moment of the split since the new blockchain will basically use the same addresses and balances (so, nominally, I should become twice as rich). It heavily reminds me of a philosophical problem that rises when someone is copied atom by atom (split mind). So what will happen to my balances, say, in my personal wallet, Coinbase wallet, and an exchange account? Let's assume that exchanges start listing the new Bitcoin, will they recreate wallets which would match the ones in the old Bitcoin (with all their balances)? Or should I move my bitcoins to a personal wallet to prevent them from being stolen by web wallets and exchanges. I refer to new bitcoins here. It would make sense to buy up as many bitcoins as possible just before the split to get rich quick

[Iranus]

As I get it, BU is going to use the same blockchain that Core now uses, right?

And if I understand that point correctly, I should have the same amount of new bitcoins as I had at the moment of split since the new blockchain will basically use the same addresses and balances (so, nominally, I should become twice as rich). It heavily reminds me of a philosophical problem that rises when someone is copied atom by atom (split mind). So what will happen to my balances, say, in my personal wallet, Coinbase wallet, and an exchange account? Let's assume that exchanges start listing the new Bitcoin, will they recreate wallets which would match the ones in the old Bitcoin (with all their balances)?

In your personal wallet, you'll own the amount of Bitcoin you owned before, plus an equal amount of BTU.

In your exchange wallet, BTU would be listed as an alt and withdrawals would be processed in Bitcoin, so it's likely that you would just have the Bitcoin that you left in there and not any BTU (as the Bitcoin was all that you decided to put into the exchange), but I can't be sure of that.

Coinbase is a lot more of a grey area because they didn't agree to list BTU as an alt.  With Ethereum, they essentially took the ETC part of their users' holdings, so who knows whether they'll do the same with BTU or BTC, or whether they'll let their users have both.

If you have any sense, take all of your money out of your exchange and Coinbase wallets if a hard fork actually seems imminent.  Not that I expect it to happen.

[Carlton Banks]

It's a bit complicated to explain.


Ideally, BU would be using a different blockchain, as it is programmed in a way that breaks Bitcoin Core's consensus rules, and that should hard fork the blockchain.

But because the BU dev team have refused to alter the magic bytes that Bitcoin uses to identify the legitimate blockchain, it could actually end up re-merging with the Bitcoin chain after the fork, orphaning all the Bitcoin Core blocks that happened before the re-merge (so trying to get transactions confirmed on Bitcoin itself could be made impossible)


All BU would have to do would be to push blocksize up to create the hard fork (using sybil nodes to vote and getting the miners to produce blocks over 1MB), then do the same in reverse, get the sybil nodes to vote blocksize back below 1MB, and the miners would have no choice but to accept that. The BTC blockchain would then detect that 1MB BU blockchain with more cumulative PoW as the "real" valid blockchain, and re-merge wiith the BU chain. Total chaos on the regular Bitcoin chain, and everyone has no choice but to stop accepting BTC.


This all assumes BU has 51% hashrate, and that they have enough resources to run 51% BU sybil nodes on the network to stack the blocksize voting.


And, this is exactly the gaping security flaw that everyone has been talking about with BU (although it's only one way to abuse the mechanism, there are almost certainly other ways)

[deisik]

It's a bit complicated to explain.


Ideally, BU would be using a different blockchain, as it is programmed in a way that breaks Bitcoin Core's consensus rules, and that should hard fork the blockchain.

But because the BU dev team have refused to alter the magic bytes that Bitcoin uses to identify the legitimate blockchain, it could actually end up re-merging with the Bitcoin chain after the fork, orphaning all the Bitcoin Core blocks that happened before the re-merge (so trying to get transactions confirmed on Bitcoin itself could be made impossible)


All BU would have to do would be to push blocksize up to create the hard fork (using sybil nodes to vote and getting the miners to produce blocks over 1MB), then do the same in reverse, get the sybil nodes to vote blocksize back below 1MB, and the miners would have no choice but to accept that. The BTC blockchain would then detect that 1MB BU blockchain with more cumulative PoW as the "real" valid blockchain, and re-merge wiith the BU chain. Total chaos on the regular Bitcoin chain, and everyone has no choice but to stop accepting BTC.


This all assumes BU has 51% hashrate, and that they have enough resources to run 51% BU sybil nodes on the network to stack the blocksize voting.


And, this is exactly the gaping security flaw that everyone has been talking about with BU (although it's only one way to abuse the mechanism, there are almost certainly other ways)

So what's the bottom line of all this really?

Should we completely stay away from Bitcoin for the time being so that if things go massively awry (blockchains splitting, then reemerging and total chaos setting in eventually) we won't be affected? Will we effectively double our balances if the split is there to stay, and thus it might make some controversial sense to actually buy even more bitcoins since they will get doubled after the split? Really, if one coin fails, the other takes off for real and thereby we may profit from the split?

[ekoice]

As I get it, BU is going to use the same blockchain that Core now uses, right?

And if I understand that point correctly, I should have the same amount of new bitcoins as I had at the moment of the split since the new blockchain will basically use the same addresses and balances (so, nominally, I should become twice as rich). It heavily reminds me of a philosophical problem that rises when someone is copied atom by atom (split mind). So what will happen to my balances, say, in my personal wallet, Coinbase wallet, and an exchange account? Let's assume that exchanges start listing the new Bitcoin, will they recreate wallets which would match the ones in the old Bitcoin (with all their balances)? Or should I move my bitcoins to a personal wallet to prevent them from being stolen by web wallets and exchanges. I refer to new bitcoins here. It would make sense to buy up as many bitcoins as possible just before the split to get rich quick

As soon as hard fork occurs,exchanges will create another account for you and you will receive both BTC and BU same quantity.But,the exchanges will postpone deposit and withdrawals for one or two days.Your way of thinking is new that to buy more bitcoins to get more BU when hard fork happens.It seems lots of people are selfish enough and whatever happens to bitcoin,they never mind and they just want some more profits.

[Carlton Banks]

So what's the bottom line of all this really?

Should we completely stay away from Bitcoin for the time being so that if things go massively awry (blockchains splitting, then reemerging and total chaos setting in eventually) we won't be affected? Will we effectively double our balances if the split is there to stay, and thus it might make some controversial sense to actually buy even more bitcoins since they will get doubled after the split? Really, if one coin fails, the other takes off for real and thereby we may profit from the split?

Until something is introduced to stop the re-merging attack I'm describing, it's difficult to recommend any course of action (i.e. do nothing)


Bitcoin could change to different magic bytes. BU could come up with an excuse to change their magic bytes to Bitcoin's newly changed ones, so that won't work.

Bitcoin could stop following the chain with the most cumulative proof of work. That's a terrible, terrible idea for a whole host of reasons.


Maybe there's a way of creating some kind of marker other than the magic bytes that cannot be imitated by the BU chain, but I don't know if it's possible.


And I hope we're all seeing what a problem this is: BU is designed like an anti-blockchain weapon. There are probably more ways to disrupt than I can think of, but this attack is more than effective enough, I hope that's sufficiently clear.

[PhucS]

According to many rumors that I have read, if BTU was born you would be duplicating the number of Bitcoins you have in your wallet. Include your original Bitcoin number and BTU number corresponding to the Bitcoin number you originally had. I'm also using Coinbase, I think Coinbase's ability to accept BTU as a Bitcoin type is pretty low, and so Bitcoins in Coinbase will not be added to BTUs. That's my guess, I'm still waiting for the specific truth. If the BTU was born as an altcoin, I think its value would be lower

[deisik]

As I get it, BU is going to use the same blockchain that Core now uses, right?

And if I understand that point correctly, I should have the same amount of new bitcoins as I had at the moment of the split since the new blockchain will basically use the same addresses and balances (so, nominally, I should become twice as rich). It heavily reminds me of a philosophical problem that rises when someone is copied atom by atom (split mind). So what will happen to my balances, say, in my personal wallet, Coinbase wallet, and an exchange account? Let's assume that exchanges start listing the new Bitcoin, will they recreate wallets which would match the ones in the old Bitcoin (with all their balances)? Or should I move my bitcoins to a personal wallet to prevent them from being stolen by web wallets and exchanges. I refer to new bitcoins here. It would make sense to buy up as many bitcoins as possible just before the split to get rich quick

As soon as hard fork occurs,exchanges will create another account for you and you will receive both BTC and BU same quantity.But,the exchanges will postpone deposit and withdrawals for one or two days.Your way of thinking is new that to buy more bitcoins to get more BU when hard fork happens.It seems lots of people are selfish enough and whatever happens to bitcoin,they never mind and they just want some more profits

You cannot lie down with dogs without rising with fleas

It is pretty obvious that the BU team and their cronies are for money mostly, and they want to hurt Bitcoin as much as possible since it fits their strategy. But they don't have many ways in which they could actually hurt it. Their best way of killing Bitcoin would be if their altcoin kicks off for real but they have to accept all the previous transactions and balance unless they want to fail right at the start. Apart from that, they would be interested to take unto themselves as little bitcoins (belonging to other people) as possible, and they can do that only by making people sell their coins cheap

[Lucius]

The first thing everyone should do is to move your BTC to desktop wallet or anywhere else where you have complete control of your private keys.If the hard fork happens there is no doubt that we will become a big mess and chaos,so you need to protect your coins and wait for the outcome.

Regarding two coins after possible hard fork we should keep in mind that if BU-BTC is out price of original BTC will go down for sure.So if you ask me do I want two coins,each worth for example 400$ more or less-or only one-I say I like to have only one.As I see it now,hard fork can do more harm than good for most users and I hope that will not happen.

[mr.mister]

Someone who knows bitcoin and coding very well, needs to figure out how to teach the antpool and its owners a lesson they'll never forget. some way needs to be figured out, as to how to burn them all badly.

[Catmony]

This can be good read for everyone who are scared about hard fork https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1644949.0

One important thing to remember is that you need to have bitcoin in bitcoin addresses whose private keys are in your control before hardfork so that you can have both bitcoin and BTU (another alt). So don't use web wallets like coinbase, xapo etc. Electrum, paper and hardware wallets are good option.

[jonald_fyookball]

As I get it, BU is going to use the same blockchain that Core now uses, right?

And if I understand that point correctly, I should have the same amount of new bitcoins as I had at the moment of the split since the new blockchain will basically use the same addresses and balances (so, nominally, I should become twice as rich). It heavily reminds me of a philosophical problem that rises when someone is copied atom by atom (split mind). So what will happen to my balances, say, in my personal wallet, Coinbase wallet, and an exchange account? Let's assume that exchanges start listing the new Bitcoin, will they recreate wallets which would match the ones in the old Bitcoin (with all their balances)? Or should I move my bitcoins to a personal wallet to prevent them from being stolen by web wallets and exchanges. I refer to new bitcoins here. It would make sense to buy up as many bitcoins as possible just before the split to get rich quick

if there is a split, any blocks before the split will exist on both chains. 

safest thing is always to have control of your own keys, now more than ever.

no such thing as get rich quick...totally unpredictable what will happen to prices before during and after the split.  anyone who says they know is speculating.

how you manage your risk or diversify your holdings is up to you, my friend.

finally, please try to have a balanced view of the situation:  The reason why BU suddenly became so popular among miners is because Core has held the code hostage for years, refusing to raise the 1mb, and there is no good excuse for this, period.

[Carlton Banks]

You cannot lie down with dogs without rising with fleas

actual lol

they don't have many ways in which they could actually hurt it.

I'm saying that with the attacks they can use with >51% BU hashing power, they can hurt Bitcoin. Bitcoin would recover, but it might take time. It can't be killed, but it can be badly injured.

We should not let even that happen, and the only way we can disarm this weapon (hashpower combined with BU design) is to nullify the hashpower. PoW must be changed, before these assholes get a chance to use their weapon

[deisik]

they don't have many ways in which they could actually hurt it.

I'm saying that with the attacks they can use with >51% BU hashing power, they can hurt Bitcoin. Bitcoin would recover, but it might take time. It can't be killed, but it can be badly injured

That will just show how nefarious their plans were in reality

If they start this attack and that would be for real, the BU team and their cronies from miners will just burn all the bridges behind their back. They will discredit themselves in the first place since if they really were pro-Bitcoin why would they ever try that at all? Basically, you can't deliberately hurt someone, then start claiming that your intentions were in fact good and you wanted to help that lame duck. Without this attack, Bitcoin may not be able to make a giant leap ahead which is long due and overdue. That should be considered as sort of katharsis that Bitcoin should necessarily go through. Indeed, going the hard way is likely not the best way, but there may not be any other option left

[BillyBobZorton]

You cannot lie down with dogs without rising with fleas

actual lol

they don't have many ways in which they could actually hurt it.

I'm saying that with the attacks they can use with >51% BU hashing power, they can hurt Bitcoin. Bitcoin would recover, but it might take time. It can't be killed, but it can be badly injured.

We should not let even that happen, and the only way we can disarm this weapon (hashpower combined with BU design) is to nullify the hashpower. PoW must be changed, before these assholes get a chance to use their weapon

Changing the PoW would leave a ton of good miners out of the game, with bad financial result as their ASICs would become useless. It's still a clusterfuck of a solution.
There's no easy solution, all of them would lead to a massive price crash, which is precisely why there will be no HF and no attack. This is all a big bluff, unless all those people pushing for BU are getting paid to kill bitcoin.
I think there isn't going to be a HF. BU is already losing hashing power and segwit is gaining it. This may have been a troll job to get people buying alts. A lot of people did a lot of money the last few days with this.

[Carlton Banks]

Without this attack, Bitcoin may not be able to make a giant leap ahead which is long due and overdue. That should be considered as sort of katharsis that Bitcoin should necessarily go through. Indeed, going the hard way is likely not the best way, but there may not be any other option left

As I'm about to explain to BillyBob, it need not be the hard way, if we build support early enough. PoW can be a staged soft-fork, making 5% changes to the SHA-2/newPoW balance over time

Changing the PoW would leave a ton of good miners out of the game, with bad financial result as their ASICs would become useless. It's still a clusterfuck of a solution.

Ah, but look at the actual PoW change plan that's gaining traction: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833391.msg18309140#msg18309140

If we popularise that plan, no clusterfuck is necessary. It will be smooth and painless.

There's no easy solution, all of them would lead to a massive price crash, which is precisely why there will be no HF and no attack. This is all a big bluff, unless all those people pushing for BU are getting paid to kill bitcoin.
I think there isn't going to be a HF.

You should read my post above.

The danger is that the BU team give zero fucks about what is good for mining, Bitcoin or cryptocurrency. If that's true, and it looks alot that way, BU hashpower attacks like that can cause a huge amount of damage to the credibility of Bitcoin, some developers at Core might have to leave, and the network effect that makes Bitcoin valuable could be seriously damaged. It took time to build this momentum up, and it would take more to regain it.

An orderly, pre-emptive change to an ASIC resistant PoW is literally the only thing we can do to stop that, and I'm very concerned that the "destroy it at all costs" MO is what's driving this. Jihad and Vermin can just accept multi-million payoffs in fiat, why would they care what happens to Bitcoin if that's the situation behind closed doors?

BU is already losing hashing power and segwit is gaining it. This may have been a troll job to get people buying alts. A lot of people did a lot of money the last few days with this.

I doubt this much effort would be put into trolling the Bitcoin price. Segwit activation can't happen without major fireworks whichever way you want to look at it, I'd be amazed if Jihad and Vermin give it up and activate Segwit.