Are exchanges causing too much centralization?

[Drunkenhorse]

Yea we desperately need decentralized exchanges and not just one, then crypto rate won't be influenced that easy.

[1Referee]

In the near future, the technology of atomic swaps will solve this problem. P2P payments will replace exchanges, as well as lead to a decrease in the amount of crypto currency.

Nah. Point is that there is enough room for both centralized and decentralized exchanges in this market. Institutions and other professional parties are tied to very strict regulations, and for that reason will never be able to trade outside a centralized environment. People will have the freedom to choose whatever option they feel comfortable with. The majority of the simple minded average joes not caring about decentralization, will always stick to the centralized exchanges, and those who care about decentralization, will know what to look for and where to go. I think that's a fair enough market offering place to all sorts of people. As much as certain people don't like the centralized exchanges, they are here to stay.

[alfstep]

Decetralized exchanges are the future! We need something better than 'Hacky' Etherdelta!
We dont trust centralized exchange, if they get hacked who will be responsible to restore our funds? There wont be any refund obviously
Wee need more safe and user friendly exchange other than Etherdelta 

[figmentofmyass]

i think this sort of price speculation is natural. we see it with other technologies (via the companies building them). investors are speculating on future development and utility. bitcoin's ecosystem is rather undeveloped. it could never be self-sustaining at this point, especially since it's inefficient to use for everyday transactions. the actualization of a scalable network ready for mainstream adoption is still very far away.

and yes, the exchanges are never going away. but remember, exchanges and futures markets arose for all commodities (including food/agriculture commodities) for a reason. not just to get rich. the market needs price discovery, and producers need to hedge.

Read all the posted links in this thread and you’ll see that this isn’t natural.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2705112.msg27666147#msg27666147

were the bubbles in 2011 and 2013 "natural?" for that matter, is the never-ending bull market in US stocks "natural?"

one of my old trading mentors told me something years ago. he said that "all markets are scams" and explained that every market functions the same way. major players (institutions, whales) just replay the wyckoff cycle over and over. they have endless USD to hold the market up during its accumulation phase. then once they have cornered the market, they can easily mark up the price. this happens with tech stocks all the time.

but regardless of price manipulation, you have to admit: the market is still the market. prices reach certain heights because buyers are willing to pay that price. as such, i don't care if the "willy bot" was responsible for the 2013 bubble. even if people were "manipulated" into buying higher, adequate liquidity always existed to prevent a drop to zero. and here we are, 4+ years later and more than 10x higher.

i don't fight the market. it's completely irrational, but being irrational is the best way to make money in herd markets.

You didn’t read any of the links. Go read about Tether and you’ll know what I’m talking about.

https://www.biznews.com/global-citizen/2017/12/06/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether-risk-crashing/

i read through the thread, including your excerpts and clicked one of the links. i didn't see any new information. i am well aware of tether/USDT and the precarious regulatory situation that bitfinex is in.

my post was specifically a response to the suggestion you made about "market manipulation." my point (see bold) was that none of that matters. all markets are manipulated. why would we expect BTC to be any different? once a trader understands that, he has two choices. he can ride with the herd knowing full well that the price action is not "natural"......or he can miss all the action.

if USDT is being used to manipulate the price, how is that any different than the "willy bot?"

[Suzrtt]

Yes they are. If a big enchange gets hacked it can affect tens or hundreds of thousands of people, that sounds pretty centralized to me. I don't know why decentralized exchanges aren't more popular, but they will be eventually.

[QuestionAuthority]

i think this sort of price speculation is natural. we see it with other technologies (via the companies building them). investors are speculating on future development and utility. bitcoin's ecosystem is rather undeveloped. it could never be self-sustaining at this point, especially since it's inefficient to use for everyday transactions. the actualization of a scalable network ready for mainstream adoption is still very far away.

and yes, the exchanges are never going away. but remember, exchanges and futures markets arose for all commodities (including food/agriculture commodities) for a reason. not just to get rich. the market needs price discovery, and producers need to hedge.

Read all the posted links in this thread and you’ll see that this isn’t natural.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2705112.msg27666147#msg27666147

were the bubbles in 2011 and 2013 "natural?" for that matter, is the never-ending bull market in US stocks "natural?"

one of my old trading mentors told me something years ago. he said that "all markets are scams" and explained that every market functions the same way. major players (institutions, whales) just replay the wyckoff cycle over and over. they have endless USD to hold the market up during its accumulation phase. then once they have cornered the market, they can easily mark up the price. this happens with tech stocks all the time.

but regardless of price manipulation, you have to admit: the market is still the market. prices reach certain heights because buyers are willing to pay that price. as such, i don't care if the "willy bot" was responsible for the 2013 bubble. even if people were "manipulated" into buying higher, adequate liquidity always existed to prevent a drop to zero. and here we are, 4+ years later and more than 10x higher.

i don't fight the market. it's completely irrational, but being irrational is the best way to make money in herd markets.

You didn’t read any of the links. Go read about Tether and you’ll know what I’m talking about.

https://www.biznews.com/global-citizen/2017/12/06/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether-risk-crashing/

i read through the thread, including your excerpts and clicked one of the links. i didn't see any new information. i am well aware of tether/USDT and the precarious regulatory situation that bitfinex is in.

my post was specifically a response to the suggestion you made about "market manipulation." my point (see bold) was that none of that matters. all markets are manipulated. why would we expect BTC to be any different? once a trader understands that, he has two choices. he can ride with the herd knowing full well that the price action is not "natural"......or he can miss all the action.

if USDT is being used to manipulate the price, how is that any different than the "willy bot?"

That’s exactly the same thing as the Willy bot. You do get it but you don’t see that as a problem. So, what your saying is that you have no problem buying into bitcoin and knowing that bitcoin is being propped up by fake dollars? My mistake, carry on.

[chukaday]

that's why we need some decentralized exchanges

Pretty sure we got some kicking around somewhere. You got Waves, EtherDelta, and IDEX if not mistaken. I am sure there are many others and many more incoming, but they have not held up like centralized exchanges have in general. There downfall will be scaling imo, if they can solve this then they will be golden but don't hold your breahte .

[figmentofmyass]

i read through the thread, including your excerpts and clicked one of the links. i didn't see any new information. i am well aware of tether/USDT and the precarious regulatory situation that bitfinex is in.

my post was specifically a response to the suggestion you made about "market manipulation." my point (see bold) was that none of that matters. all markets are manipulated. why would we expect BTC to be any different? once a trader understands that, he has two choices. he can ride with the herd knowing full well that the price action is not "natural"......or he can miss all the action.

if USDT is being used to manipulate the price, how is that any different than the "willy bot?"

That’s exactly the same thing as the Willy bot. You do get it but you don’t see that as a problem. So, what your saying is that you have no problem buying into bitcoin and knowing that bitcoin is being propped up by fake dollars? My mistake, carry on.

it's not that i "don’t see that as a problem." i have no control over whether markets are manipulated. i am merely acknowledging that reality and acting accordingly. you expect me to ethically refuse to hold bitcoins because some assholes are trying to manipulate price? then you expect people to be irrational. that's a losing game. and furthermore, some stranger's unethical actions have nothing to with me. i believe in bitcoin's technology. i'm supposed to give that up because you think bitfinex is manipulating price?

in reality, i don't think tether's circulation is capable of "propping up" the entire cryptocurrency market, either. and even if it were, it's just the new "willy bot." temporary market manipulation that will be absorbed by the market. today's manipulation is still tomorrow's price discovery. if the demand didn't exist, the market would have crashed to zero by now.

if the "willy bot" was using fake dollars, but we're 12x higher now than the 2013 highs, what does that tell you? that investors were defrauded into buying bitcoins, which are now worth much more money? what difference do those fake dollars really make?

how are bitfinex's "fake dollars" so different than exploiting QE/easy credit and the use of toxic assets as margin collateral, which we see in the world markets? we can bitch about this stuff all day and shout into the void about it like this guy, or we can acknowledge reality and move on. you apparently agree with bitfinexed, who says that investing in BTC is ethically equivalent to fraud because you're participating in the bitfinex/tether manipulation. i think that's a joke.

in a world where fiat money is printed with reckless abandon, all dollars begin to feel fake, and deflationary currency looks attractive no matter what.

[QuestionAuthority]

i read through the thread, including your excerpts and clicked one of the links. i didn't see any new information. i am well aware of tether/USDT and the precarious regulatory situation that bitfinex is in.

my post was specifically a response to the suggestion you made about "market manipulation." my point (see bold) was that none of that matters. all markets are manipulated. why would we expect BTC to be any different? once a trader understands that, he has two choices. he can ride with the herd knowing full well that the price action is not "natural"......or he can miss all the action.

if USDT is being used to manipulate the price, how is that any different than the "willy bot?"

That’s exactly the same thing as the Willy bot. You do get it but you don’t see that as a problem. So, what your saying is that you have no problem buying into bitcoin and knowing that bitcoin is being propped up by fake dollars? My mistake, carry on.

it's not that i "don’t see that as a problem." i have no control over whether markets are manipulated. i am merely acknowledging that reality and acting accordingly. you expect me to ethically refuse to hold bitcoins because some assholes are trying to manipulate price? then you expect people to be irrational. that's a losing game. and furthermore, some stranger's unethical actions have nothing to with me. i believe in bitcoin's technology. i'm supposed to give that up because you think bitfinex is manipulating price?

in reality, i don't think tether's circulation is capable of "propping up" the entire cryptocurrency market, either. and even if it were, it's just the new "willy bot." temporary market manipulation that will be absorbed by the market. today's manipulation is still tomorrow's price discovery. if the demand didn't exist, the market would have crashed to zero by now.

if the "willy bot" was using fake dollars, but we're 12x higher now than the 2013 highs, what does that tell you? that investors were defrauded into buying bitcoins, which are now worth much more money? what difference do those fake dollars really make?

how are bitfinex's "fake dollars" so different than exploiting QE/easy credit and the use of toxic assets as margin collateral, which we see in the world markets? we can bitch about this stuff all day and shout into the void about it like this guy, or we can acknowledge reality and move on. you apparently agree with bitfinexed, who says that investing in BTC is ethically equivalent to fraud because you're participating in the bitfinex/tether manipulation. i think that's a joke.

in a world where fiat money is printed with reckless abandon, all dollars begin to feel fake, and deflationary currency looks attractive no matter what.

I definitely don’t have a problem with you investing in it because you get it. If you lose everything you at least knew the score. That makes you one in a thousand. Many people don’t know anything but the cheerleading, to the moon, were all gonna be billionaires, bullshit they are fed all day long on this forum. If they lose all their money betting on a rigged game we are to blame because we never tried to tell them the truth. Instead we told them lies constantly to keep them investing their extra money until they lose it all.

I guess you’re right, bitcoin is no different than any world market or Wall Street long con. I guess I just expected too much from bitcoin. I wanted it to be something more than that. My bad.

[poor-yorik]

that's why we need some decentralized exchanges

Agree, many exchanges now getting stricter with personal identification as example Poloniex want your identity verification. I believe this is the right time for decentralized exchanges to shines.

As much as I want it myself, people don't like changes much. They are used to trading at centralized exchanges, and it will be hard for them to switch to decentralized ones because they would be an entirely different experience. There will be no more exchange sites, all trading will be done through personal wallets as I understand it.

[figmentofmyass]

I definitely don’t have a problem with you investing in it because you get it. If you lose everything you at least knew the score. That makes you one in a thousand. Many people don’t know anything but the cheerleading, to the moon, were all gonna be billionaires, bullshit they are fed all day long on this forum. If they lose all their money betting on a rigged game we are to blame because we never tried to tell them the truth. Instead we told them lies constantly to keep them investing their extra money until they lose it all.

yeah, that happens in all markets, though. maybe it's a bit more exaggerated in cryptocurrencies, but i think that's more a function of the times we live in (the internet, social media, etc). i remember when the yahoo finance forums were rife with similar get-rich-quick cheerleading for penny stocks. hell, they probably still are.

regarding the "rigged game": the truth is, i just don't know what will happen. when bitfinex and tether first lost banking capabilities, a big premium developed. i actually lost a bunch of coins (equivalent) because i had been holding some USD on bitfinex and USDT on tether. i exited those exchanges, fearing the worst. then i further miscalculated, expecting that the market would read further into these fundamental events.

instead, it seemed like traders began reacting to the unnatural price increases on bitfinex and poloniex. technical breakouts occurred on the charts. everyone simply forgot (or didn't care) about bitfinex's problems and prices kept pumping. it was really hard for me emotionally to overcome my old mindset. "what are you idiots doing? people are just buying because they are desperate to escape bitfinex/tether USD liabilities!" i lost a lot of coins and missed a lot of action keeping that mindset.

at some point it dawned on me that even if the willy bot was real, and USDT was naked manipulation, that this is just how markets work. at some point, feedback loops develop, and the manipulation doesn't even matter anymore to the market. price drives price. fomo takes on a life of its own. fundamental events tend just to catalyze and accelerate market trends.

I guess you’re right, bitcoin is no different than any world market or Wall Street long con. I guess I just expected too much from bitcoin. I wanted it to be something more than that. My bad.

it can be. but these are transitional times. these markets are incredibly inefficient. the ecosystem has horrible infrastructure, and no public blockchain (including BTC) is scalable as is. as they say, rome wasn't built in a day.

so we have these shitty, manipulated centralized exchanges. the gateways. the hope is that as adoption becomes mainstream, so will P2P usage. after all, it's a network.

[deisik]

instead, it seemed like traders began reacting to the unnatural price increases on bitfinex and poloniex. technical breakouts occurred on the charts. everyone simply forgot (or didn't care) about bitfinex's problems and prices kept pumping. it was really hard for me emotionally to overcome my old mindset. "what are you idiots doing? people are just buying because they are desperate to escape bitfinex/tether USD liabilities!" i lost a lot of coins and missed a lot of action keeping that mindset.

at some point it dawned on me that even if the willy bot was real, and USDT was naked manipulation, that this is just how markets work. at some point, feedback loops develop, and the manipulation doesn't even matter anymore to the market. price drives price. fomo takes on a life of its own. fundamental events tend just to catalyze and accelerate market trends.

Reality will inevitably kick in sooner or later

But it could be more convoluted and complex than you or me might think. For example, even if it is a rigged game, they can easily switch back to normal when it is time to (and this is what they likely did already), and then, all of a sudden, it may turn out that it is people like you with the old mindset who got caught with their "prejudices". It could be said that the game is more rigged than you could ever imagine, it is double rigged in a sense. In other words, they know when to rig it and when to get rid of that. And that's the irony of it

In the near future, the technology of atomic swaps will solve this problem. P2P payments will replace exchanges, as well as lead to a decrease in the amount of crypto currency.

Nah. Point is that there is enough room for both centralized and decentralized exchanges in this market. Institutions and other professional parties are tied to very strict regulations, and for that reason will never be able to trade outside a centralized environment

Let's just say that I disagree with your point

[verdi-crypto]

Decetralized exchanges are the future! We need something better than 'Hacky' Etherdelta!
We dont trust centralized exchange, if they get hacked who will be responsible to restore our funds? There wont be any refund obviously
Wee need more safe and user friendly exchange other than Etherdelta  

Take a look at Bitshares DEX, it's been running for years now and has a lot of interesting features, like margin trading and smartcoins.

It has a great volume as well, especially coming from China, which is always a good sign