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Author Topic: POW via training/validating Deep Neural Networks  (Read 349 times)
HeRetiK
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June 20, 2018, 09:07:00 AM
Merited by ABCbits (3)
 #21

3c) Experts in the field, e.g., computer vision, after looking at the dataset, will know how difficult the problem is.

How to know who is an expert? Why would experts spend time evaluating datasets for a cryptocurrency? How to ensure that they evaluate the difficulty of a given challenge fairly and objectively?

Introducing the need for experts to evaluate the nature of the work to be solved (ie. the dataset difficulty) means introducing trusted third parties. This means you lose the core value propositions of cryptocurrencies -- being trustless and permissionless. And since the nature of evaluating the difficulty of a dataset appears to be subjective, you even lose the security aspect of cryptocurrencies.

Don't get me wrong, if you turn this project into a sort of incentivized Folding@home there might be some merit in terms of gamification to it. But from my current understanding of this approach it would make for an awful cryptocurrency.


1) bootstrapping is similar to how bitcoin started, no miners, easy to control 51% of the hash power. Value of coin is low. the pioneers will have to bootstrap the chain by giving out coins, etc. or follow the footsteps of ETH. Need to do research on how these 2 started.

I was referring to the following statement:

Quote from: lordjulian
Sybill attacks can be discouraged by requiring each dataset that has a defined problem to come with an attached processing fee.

According to this, you have to pay a processing fee for either (a) submitting a dataset or for (b) solving a dataset challenge ie. mine a block. I'm not quite sure whether you had (a) or (b) in mind. Either way this means that currency needs to exist before the first block can be mined. In essence, this introduces another centralized entity, namely one that has to issue the first units of currency.


2) yes, authentic dataset creation is a tough problem. Dataset contribution can be constrained as follows:

only aggregate datasets are considered, i.e., 100 individual user profile pictures, contributed by 100 users. This will increase the sybil attack cost. The mining problem could be to classify the user pictures into male/female, different races, etc.

3) fake dataset if contributed by a single person, is hard to detect. That's why I suggested the above. Some one posting a dataset and solving it himself would not reap benefits, unless he mobilize an army of miners, as described earlier.

100 individual users? Users of what? Facebook? Google? Some other form of online account? How does relying on the accounts of a third party service protect against a sybill attack? How do you even know that 100 users are 100 different persons?

Identifying 100 individual users (or votes, or however you may call it) is at the core of the sybill attack problem. Not its solution.



How to stop rogue clients from DDoSing the network by flooding it with wrong timestamps and turning 2 minute block intervals into 2 days or weeks or years?


By attaching a cost/fee to each broadcasted result?

So miners are paying to mine blocks?

Why would anyone pay to mine a block? How would currency be issued in a system where miners pay for mining blocks but don't receive any block rewards? Or does the fee simply get substracted from the block reward? In which case, how is it a fee if miners simply receive reduced block rewards to begin with?
lordjulian (OP)
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July 11, 2018, 08:40:54 AM
 #22

To recap: a lot of problems need to be addressed before AI tasks can be used as POW.

1) Data must be true / valid

2) Selection of Data must be random / fair

3) Validation of work must be fast, easy, and deterministic

4) Computation must be non-trivial

Main obstacles lie in 1 and 2, where data is too large to store on-chain, and must be stored off-chain via IPFS, with a data hash-signature stored on-chain.
lordjulian (OP)
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July 11, 2018, 08:58:42 AM
 #23

3c) Experts in the field, e.g., computer vision, after looking at the dataset, will know how difficult the problem is.

How to know who is an expert? Why would experts spend time evaluating datasets for a cryptocurrency? How to ensure that they evaluate the difficulty of a given challenge fairly and objectively?

Introducing the need for experts to evaluate the nature of the work to be solved (ie. the dataset difficulty) means introducing trusted third parties. This means you lose the core value propositions of cryptocurrencies -- being trustless and permissionless. And since the nature of evaluating the difficulty of a dataset appears to be subjective, you even lose the security aspect of cryptocurrencies.

Don't get me wrong, if you turn this project into a sort of incentivized Folding@home there might be some merit in terms of gamification to it. But from my current understanding of this approach it would make for an awful cryptocurrency.

Experts = Miners.

They will look at the current elected problem (equivalent to hash problem), and decide on whether to participate in the mining (training of the neural network). They do not rate a dataset per se.



1) bootstrapping is similar to how bitcoin started, no miners, easy to control 51% of the hash power. Value of coin is low. the pioneers will have to bootstrap the chain by giving out coins, etc. or follow the footsteps of ETH. Need to do research on how these 2 started.

I was referring to the following statement:

Quote from: lordjulian
Sybill attacks can be discouraged by requiring each dataset that has a defined problem to come with an attached processing fee.

According to this, you have to pay a processing fee for either (a) submitting a dataset or for (b) solving a dataset challenge ie. mine a block. I'm not quite sure whether you had (a) or (b) in mind. Either way this means that currency needs to exist before the first block can be mined. In essence, this introduces another centralized entity, namely one that has to issue the first units of currency.


Yes, so I guess the solution is to somehow automatically select the next block of POW problem, and let miners just work on it.




2) yes, authentic dataset creation is a tough problem. Dataset contribution can be constrained as follows:

only aggregate datasets are considered, i.e., 100 individual user profile pictures, contributed by 100 users. This will increase the sybil attack cost. The mining problem could be to classify the user pictures into male/female, different races, etc.

3) fake dataset if contributed by a single person, is hard to detect. That's why I suggested the above. Some one posting a dataset and solving it himself would not reap benefits, unless he mobilize an army of miners, as described earlier.

100 individual users? Users of what? Facebook? Google? Some other form of online account? How does relying on the accounts of a third party service protect against a sybill attack? How do you even know that 100 users are 100 different persons?

Identifying 100 individual users (or votes, or however you may call it) is at the core of the sybill attack problem. Not its solution.

Yes, you hit it on the nail. In our original design, each individual can contribute their personal data to the ecosystem, or contribute bulk data to the ecosystem, and I was referring to the bulk data part. But you are right, there is no way to validate the authenticity of the bulk data, which can be doctored.



How to stop rogue clients from DDoSing the network by flooding it with wrong timestamps and turning 2 minute block intervals into 2 days or weeks or years?


By attaching a cost/fee to each broadcasted result?

So miners are paying to mine blocks?

Why would anyone pay to mine a block? How would currency be issued in a system where miners pay for mining blocks but don't receive any block rewards? Or does the fee simply get substracted from the block reward? In which case, how is it a fee if miners simply receive reduced block rewards to begin with?

We will just follow how bitcoin does for handling DDOS. if bitcoin sucks at it, we will have to think of a way of facing DDOS attacks.




aliashraf
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July 12, 2018, 07:31:20 AM
 #24

A naive perception of PoW, specially in the first stages of everybody's journey in crypto, would be this false idea that the energy and resources are somehow 'wasted' in POW and asking why instead of foolishly and exhaustively wasting time and energy, miners shouldn't utilize their resources to do something more 'useful'?

Noobs are not alone, PoS proponents repeatedly accuse PoW of not being 'environment friendly' and try to take advantage of it to advertise their shitty ideas, as well. They suppose in PoW miners are solving a 'meaningless' puzzle, just like noobs but instead of trying to 'fix' this by suggesting an alternative problem for miners to solve, they ask themselves: Why PoW?

I suppose they are just bored with failing to 'fix' imaginary problems like this and real problems like scalability. Anyhow this is interesting to see  noobs are best candidates for trapping in PoS agenda: Making an environment friendly, zero cost, global monetary system based on reputation/credit/deposit ==>stake of participants.

Miners are not wasting anything, they are consuming energy to prove their commitment to the protocol instead of spamming the network.

This is canonical and can't be changed even a bit. If mining process might be considered a byproduct of some other problem-solving procedure that is considered to be 'useful' , miners would be rewarded because of that job primarily and their commitment to the protocol would be measured (and rewarded) much lower because they would have much less incentive to remain loyal.

Accusing PoW of being a waste of energy and computation power is based on a false assumption about the hashing algorithm being stupidly useless.
It is not. The nonce miners try to find in the process, makes the block header qualified for being immutable, adding such a 'quality' to data is not wasting anything.

On the contrary I think tha value added to data in mining process, is one of the most important and useful products of civilization ever. And it is just ridiculous to assume the work and the energy consumed for the production process as a waste.

Noobs and their PoS leaders are the ones who are wasting something: our time.

 

HeRetiK
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July 13, 2018, 06:15:05 PM
 #25

3c) Experts in the field, e.g., computer vision, after looking at the dataset, will know how difficult the problem is.

Experts = Miners.

They will look at the current elected problem (equivalent to hash problem), and decide on whether to participate in the mining (training of the neural network). They do not rate a dataset per se.

So... human experts in the field will manually monitor their GPU clusters at all times to determine the difficulty of a problem? ಠ_ಠ


Yes, so I guess the solution is to somehow automatically select the next block of POW problem, and let miners just work on it.

That's merely a vague way to describe one of the many problems of this approach, not the solution.



How to stop rogue clients from DDoSing the network by flooding it with wrong timestamps and turning 2 minute block intervals into 2 days or weeks or years?


By attaching a cost/fee to each broadcasted result?

So miners are paying to mine blocks?

Why would anyone pay to mine a block? How would currency be issued in a system where miners pay for mining blocks but don't receive any block rewards? Or does the fee simply get substracted from the block reward? In which case, how is it a fee if miners simply receive reduced block rewards to begin with?

We will just follow how bitcoin does for handling DDOS. if bitcoin sucks at it, we will have to think of a way of facing DDOS attacks.

Bitcoin handles the problem of timestamping by using a PoW scheme with an objectively determinable difficulty allowing for striving towards predetermined block intervals. It's why Bitcoin and other alts use cryptographic hashes as part of their PoW scheme and not a problem that can't be quantified without human intervention. I'd recommend taking a closer look at how and why PoW works and what problems it solves.
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