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Author Topic: Calling Gavin Andresen and others, possibility of restoring MtGox's coins.  (Read 7824 times)
TheFootMan (OP)
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March 02, 2014, 03:33:58 PM
 #61

Don't worry, a Task Force consisting of, erm, diplomatic skilled non-judging experts, is right now directed to Japan to extract the truth (or whatever) from Mark K. Cool

In the back there seems to be a frenchman, I kindly ask you to replace him with someone else, preferably somebody from Finland.
zyk
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March 02, 2014, 03:48:02 PM
 #62

All exchanges are doing fractional....

just force every exchange to do all deals in the blockchain...thats not going to happen---cause the big fish want to cash out of the ponzi and the bagholders are waning !

Cheers

I have yet to see evidence of this either.

If people weren't using an exchange for long-term bitcoin storage, fractional would not be possible.



If the big fish ( TBF ) or the big fail not only wanted to cash out as soon as possible they would not have let this happen and certainly would not just stand by and

tell all suckers atill in the game : Hey get over this....we lost some too...just buy more and put them in cold storage how Mark was cleverly doing Wink

and then be part of our platinum membership !
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March 02, 2014, 04:29:37 PM
 #63

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

Please read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/



Yeah I read it an it is utter nonsense written by someone who doesn't understand that private keys are random and addresses are derived from those private keys.  

Private key a is a random 256 bit number.  Using ECDSA and priv_key a produces pubkey A which is hashed and cheksumed to form address AA.  A proper wallet would record "a" and "AA".  If MtGox's custom wallet was broken such that instead of producing address AA they produced address BB there is no way to find private key b from address BB.  The coins are now at "BB" which has an unknown key and they were never sent to "AA" which is the address for the key MtGox has.

The linked post is just a theory and if right (MtGox doesn't have the private keys from the addresses containing 800,000 BTC) then those coins are "gone" forever*.  If you could "recover" those coins then it wouldn't really matter because Bitcoin is completely broken and worthless.


* Well at least until the cryptographic primitives are weakened by cryptanalysis to make a brute force attack possible which could be 0 to infinite years from now.

Advanced math is not my strongpoint, but what you say is what I have understood as well.

In truth, I don't believe the keys are missing or that Gox was hacked. I think somebody on the inside stole it. I have strong (but unproven) suspicions of Mark Karpeles himself, since NOBODY in charge of a business would fail to note a monetary hemorrhage of that magnitude. Hell, when I was an assistant manager, I'd redo the numbers ten times to find five bucks. I was in charge of a few thousand dollars, not a King's Ransom.

The whole thing stinks of fish.

I empathize.  Up in NY not finding work in my field I worked as a cashier in a typically busy LI supermarket.  Not like down south here where cashiers casually scan items at a snails pace, long lines, loaded carts, we'd have to move products across the scanner very, very quickly and with accuracy.  Counting out at night, EXACT receipts were required.  When a nickel was short there was hell to pay.  You'd be in a small closet with a window to the managers cubical and after a long day on one's feet, to be getting a blast bile and instructions to recount the draw repeatedly ain't fun.  So, there's almost a half billion dollars worth of bitcoins missing.  And he's 'sorry about that'.

He should offer a reward for information leading to trial and conviction as well as btc return.  He's not going to do that if he's the guilty party.
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March 02, 2014, 06:03:16 PM
 #64

While I don't think it was directed at me, I'd like to address the compassion issue.

While I think it is indeed necessary and right to discuss and if possible mitigate the human cost here, I also think that any "technical" solution that rolls back the blockchain or otherwise messes with the internal working of Bitcoin is NOT compassionate, even though it appears to be. Because if we do that (and the nature of bitcoin makes it so it is ALL of us if it is to be done), then instead of 6 percent loss, it's one hundred percent. I understand that the op was in fact not suggesting this, but rather trying to find a way to recover the keys. But the idea nevertheless got floated, and in more than one place.

I would suggest that all those who lost money in whatever flavor to MTGOX contact the court officers who are investigating the alleged bankruptcy and DETAIL your losses, with such details as they need to prove it. I doubt that the software and user accounts have been destroyed, and the missing coins do exist in the blockchain. I'm not a cryptographic expert. It's something I have some interest in, but my math skills are sub par. I'm good at merchant's math, but not the advanced stuff. Nevertheless, with the experts and the law all on this, it is likely that a fair amount will be recovered and disbursed to the account holders. I very much doubt that Mr. Karpeles personal fortune will be greatly impacted by this, unless he was foolish enough to keep his personal funds on the exchange and/or is found to have perpetrated or been involved. But his company is going to be either sold at auction piecemeal, or be bought out (price of which would likely include settlement of accounts to the extent possible).

While not physical, Bitcoin shares far more in common with hard monies such as gold and silver than it does with modern fiat currencies. It has to be treated as such. You, me, every bitcoin user needs to understand this. You HAVE to have sole access to your private keys at all times, and if you do have coins on an exchange, it should be a fraction of what you have, or be there no longer than it takes to effect the exchange. I think the people who got burned will learn this. I know it kind of came off like I was saying "they got what they deserved" earlier, but that was not my intent. I have personally lost a small fortune due to similar mistakes in my youth. If you learn from it, it's a painful memory. If you do it a second time, then yes, it is your fault.

I also think there is an opportunity here, and I would encourage former holders of Goxcoins to look into this, of offering insurance to the bitcoin market. One can mitigate quite a bit of risk in that manner, by risking a bit more on insurance Cheesy It's a rather old economic model, and one that works. An honest insurance company (they do exist, or at least have) makes a lot of money for it's operators, and mitigate risk in a manner that encourages commerce and discourages stupidity while protecting it's clients against exactly the kind of crap that just went down with Gox.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think the most compassionate thing we as a community can do is encourage those who lost out to be more careful in the future, and to help build the value of the brand. In adversity lies opportunity. It is my belief that so long as we don't allow our feelings to overcome our logic, that bitcoin and BY EXTENSION it's holders will not only survive this, it will become stronger. Mtgox is not bitcoin, much as some of the media would like it to be. It was a corrupt and incompetent company that traded in bitcoin.
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March 02, 2014, 06:27:25 PM
 #65

Mtgox is not bitcoin, much as some of the media would like it to be. It was a corrupt and incompetent company that traded in bitcoin.

It was only headed by bitcoins early adopters and sat on the board of the TBF which san be considered to consist of the same incompetent corrupted staff

which hopefully will caught red-handed as most of the loot was not gotten back from Madoff but from the PONZ-Pass through operators !

Those gains of the pirate@40 scam are in the hands of the scamming MODS of this forum as well....BTC is fucked in the hand of scammers.
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March 02, 2014, 06:32:11 PM
 #66

It might be possible that Mark Karpeles messed up in regards to the cold wallets and need expert help to recover it.

I think this looks like something that's worth looking more closely into:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

What will Gavin Andresen, other core devs and the Bitcoin Foundation do about this?

Personally I would flown directly to Tokoyo and do whatever I could to look into this situation  if I had the money, connections and knowledge required to look into this closely. Unfortunately I don't have this.

There are however some people that do. And it is the responsibility of the people who have the resources, knowledge and wisdom to help those less fortunate.

While you could say anything about people who had money or coins deposited with MtGox, the fact is that most (if any) did not deserve what happened to them.

Here are some real stories about real people getting affected in a real way.

It is to sad to see that families are being wrecked, and people not being able to rightfully use the money that belongs to them to buy a house, pay their debt and so on. While most of you devs and experts are smart enough not to be affected by this, not all people are.

Bitcoin was meant to change the world for the better, not to fuck people over. While bitcoin is not the same as MtGox, if you actually acted on this information, and it proved to be successful, you would become true heroes, and bitcoin would shine - and you know you at least did what you could to try to help people.

In the opposite case, you basically tell the entire world that you do not care. The Foundation has enough money to assemble a task force to fly to Japan and assist Mark Karpeles.

A Task Force consisting of diplomatic skilled non-judging experts that will only help Mark, and not put blame, harass or otherwise make things difficult for Mark and MtGox, but an honest attempt to help the people who've been caught out in this situation.

The Foundation do have the financial means. While the foundation and software experts in this community do not owe the victims anything and do not have a legal obligation to intervene, the situation is so special that intervention is warranted, Charlie Shrem also said this in one of the latest Let's Talk Bitcoin episodes.

If this could be fixed somehow, and it's all a matter of fixing the private keys, and that is in fact possible, not only would you help all those victims to at least recover some part of their investment, but you would also be complete heroes, and bring a lot of positive press to bitcoin. While I understand a lot of you don't care about being heroes, the gratitude from people and the knowledge that you touched the lives of countless people will be a reward enough in itself.

I sincerely hope that you will take action and help.

Ps: My loss in the event is very small, but I really have compassion and thought for all the rest of the customers who got caught out. Let's not be insensitive and put blame on people and call them stupid, let's help them!






Why baby ? Why all will go for the early adopters. When one newbie loose his/her BTC from a web wallet, u guys do big talk about naive the newbie is. Now u have been Goxed and u want authority intervention ?

zyk
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March 02, 2014, 06:44:10 PM
 #67

It might be possible that Mark Karpeles messed up in regards to the cold wallets and need expert help to recover it.

I think this looks like something that's worth looking more closely into:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

What will Gavin Andresen, other core devs and the Bitcoin Foundation do about this?

Personally I would flown directly to Tokoyo and do whatever I could to look into this situation  if I had the money, connections and knowledge required to look into this closely. Unfortunately I don't have this.

There are however some people that do. And it is the responsibility of the people who have the resources, knowledge and wisdom to help those less fortunate.

While you could say anything about people who had money or coins deposited with MtGox, the fact is that most (if any) did not deserve what happened to them.

Here are some real stories about real people getting affected in a real way.

It is to sad to see that families are being wrecked, and people not being able to rightfully use the money that belongs to them to buy a house, pay their debt and so on. While most of you devs and experts are smart enough not to be affected by this, not all people are.

Bitcoin was meant to change the world for the better, not to fuck people over. While bitcoin is not the same as MtGox, if you actually acted on this information, and it proved to be successful, you would become true heroes, and bitcoin would shine - and you know you at least did what you could to try to help people.

In the opposite case, you basically tell the entire world that you do not care. The Foundation has enough money to assemble a task force to fly to Japan and assist Mark Karpeles.

A Task Force consisting of diplomatic skilled non-judging experts that will only help Mark, and not put blame, harass or otherwise make things difficult for Mark and MtGox, but an honest attempt to help the people who've been caught out in this situation.

The Foundation do have the financial means. While the foundation and software experts in this community do not owe the victims anything and do not have a legal obligation to intervene, the situation is so special that intervention is warranted, Charlie Shrem also said this in one of the latest Let's Talk Bitcoin episodes.

If this could be fixed somehow, and it's all a matter of fixing the private keys, and that is in fact possible, not only would you help all those victims to at least recover some part of their investment, but you would also be complete heroes, and bring a lot of positive press to bitcoin. While I understand a lot of you don't care about being heroes, the gratitude from people and the knowledge that you touched the lives of countless people will be a reward enough in itself.

I sincerely hope that you will take action and help.

Ps: My loss in the event is very small, but I really have compassion and thought for all the rest of the customers who got caught out. Let's not be insensitive and put blame on people and call them stupid, let's help them!






Why baby ? Why all will go for the early adopters. When one newbie loose his/her BTC from a web wallet, u guys do big talk about naive the newbie is. Now u have been Goxed and u want authority intervention ?


No....just asking if the authority is not thiefing themselves and as they do obviously- BTC is a death struck PONZI itself....no fresh blood to be expected for a long time to come....
zyk
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March 02, 2014, 06:59:06 PM
 #68

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article44588.html
TheFootMan (OP)
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March 02, 2014, 08:17:50 PM
 #69

In adversity lies opportunity. It is my belief that so long as we don't allow our feelings to overcome our logic, that bitcoin and BY EXTENSION it's holders will not only survive this, it will become stronger. Mtgox is not bitcoin, much as some of the media would like it to be. It was a corrupt and incompetent company that traded in bitcoin.

Amen. Thanks for your wise input. There's a saying: "The smart learn from his own mistakes, the genius learns from others mistakes". I too have had big monetary losses in the past. It was painful, but I did learn from it.
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