Calling Gavin Andresen and others, possibility of restoring MtGox's coins.

[TheFootMan]

It might be possible that Mark Karpeles messed up in regards to the cold wallets and need expert help to recover it.

I think this looks like something that's worth looking more closely into:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

What will Gavin Andresen, other core devs and the Bitcoin Foundation do about this?

Personally I would flown directly to Tokoyo and do whatever I could to look into this situation  if I had the money, connections and knowledge required to look into this closely. Unfortunately I don't have this.

There are however some people that do. And it is the responsibility of the people who have the resources, knowledge and wisdom to help those less fortunate.

While you could say anything about people who had money or coins deposited with MtGox, the fact is that most (if any) did not deserve what happened to them.

Here are some real stories about real people getting affected in a real way.

It is to sad to see that families are being wrecked, and people not being able to rightfully use the money that belongs to them to buy a house, pay their debt and so on. While most of you devs and experts are smart enough not to be affected by this, not all people are.

Bitcoin was meant to change the world for the better, not to fuck people over. While bitcoin is not the same as MtGox, if you actually acted on this information, and it proved to be successful, you would become true heroes, and bitcoin would shine - and you know you at least did what you could to try to help people.

In the opposite case, you basically tell the entire world that you do not care. The Foundation has enough money to assemble a task force to fly to Japan and assist Mark Karpeles.

A Task Force consisting of diplomatic skilled non-judging experts that will only help Mark, and not put blame, harass or otherwise make things difficult for Mark and MtGox, but an honest attempt to help the people who've been caught out in this situation.

The Foundation do have the financial means. While the foundation and software experts in this community do not owe the victims anything and do not have a legal obligation to intervene, the situation is so special that intervention is warranted, Charlie Shrem also said this in one of the latest Let's Talk Bitcoin episodes.

If this could be fixed somehow, and it's all a matter of fixing the private keys, and that is in fact possible, not only would you help all those victims to at least recover some part of their investment, but you would also be complete heroes, and bring a lot of positive press to bitcoin. While I understand a lot of you don't care about being heroes, the gratitude from people and the knowledge that you touched the lives of countless people will be a reward enough in itself.

I sincerely hope that you will take action and help.

Ps: My loss in the event is very small, but I really have compassion and thought for all the rest of the customers who got caught out. Let's not be insensitive and put blame on people and call them stupid, let's help them!

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[Biomech]

If it can be done without forking the blockchain, I'd be for this. Also if it can be done without Mtgox coming back. I have no losses from this, but I do sympathize with those who do. Except the executive staff of Mtgox. This level of mismanagement, if that's what it is, is criminal. No one in charge of that amount of money should be sloppy at all, let alone to the tune of six percent of the currency.

If it can't be recovered without breaking the blockchain, let it die. It will make the coin more valuable.

[TheFootMan]

If it can be done without forking the blockchain, I'd be for this. Also if it can be done without Mtgox coming back. I have no losses from this, but I do sympathize with those who do. Except the executive staff of Mtgox. This level of mismanagement, if that's what it is, is criminal. No one in charge of that amount of money should be sloppy at all, let alone to the tune of six percent of the currency.

If it can't be recovered without breaking the blockchain, let it die. It will make the coin more valuable.

I am not suggesting the blockchain should be altered. I'm suggesting that the suggestions the software developer in the first reddit link made should be checked more closely.

It might be that Mark just fucked up and is too embarassed to admit it, and might try to fix it himself, but doesn't have the required knowledge to do so, due to regressive errors in his code. Software experts may be able to see what's wrong and possibly retrieve the keys to the cold storage that might be lost.

[Biomech]

If it can be done without forking the blockchain, I'd be for this. Also if it can be done without Mtgox coming back. I have no losses from this, but I do sympathize with those who do. Except the executive staff of Mtgox. This level of mismanagement, if that's what it is, is criminal. No one in charge of that amount of money should be sloppy at all, let alone to the tune of six percent of the currency.

If it can't be recovered without breaking the blockchain, let it die. It will make the coin more valuable.

I am not suggesting the blockchain should be altered. I'm suggesting that the suggestions the software developer in the first reddit link made should be checked more closely.

It might be that Mark just fucked up and is too embarassed to admit it, and might try to fix it himself, but doesn't have the required knowledge to do so, due to regressive errors in his code. Software experts may be able to see what's wrong and possibly retrieve the keys to the cold storage that might be lost.

Yes, I understand. But I have also seen a number of people asking for a fork where those coins are destroyed and regenerated. I am of the firm opinion that this would kill bitcoin were it actually done.

I'm also not a firm believer in the (varied) stories of Mr. Karpeles. I've only been seriously involved in this community for about two years, and frankly, what I saw on the MtGox front page on my first visit was "mene, mene, tekel uparshin". I've never had a satoshi pass through there, unless it came down the chain from me. I don't trust the man or his business. It would be nice if it could be fixed, at least sufficiently to mostly reimburse those who hold coin there. But not at the expense of this grand experiment. Even if the funds are recovered, Mtgox needs to stay dead.

[itod]

The Foundation has enough money to assemble a task force to fly to Japan and assist Mark Karpeles.

Where did you read that Mark Karpeles asked for a help? You can't help someone who doesn't want your help.

[DeathAndTaxes]

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

[TheFootMan]

The Foundation has enough money to assemble a task force to fly to Japan and assist Mark Karpeles.

Where did you read that Mark Karpeles asked for a help? You can't help someone who doesn't want your help.

I agree with Biomech on his thoughts.

As for the input from itod: I think a task force should be sent there anyway, and they should be very persistent in trying to help MtGox/Mark. If he refuses help, that points even more to him being guilty of misdoings.

I would think there's at least someone on the Foundation or otherwise (Roger Ver?), that could sit down with Mark, have a conversation, and convince him that it is in everybody's interest to work together to find a solution.

[TheFootMan]

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

Please read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

[fryarminer]

Dude, TheFootMan, thanks for this post. I absolutely agree with you. I don't have anything in Gox, never have, but I agree that many people are suffering and their lives have been mutated because of this, and we need to get their BTC back. They don't deserve this.
And it would silence all those who badmouth Bitcoin, for at least a day!

[DeathAndTaxes]

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

Please read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

Yeah I read it an it is utter nonsense written by someone who doesn't understand that private keys are random and addresses are derived from those private keys.  

Private key a is a random 256 bit number.  Using ECDSA and priv_key a produces pubkey A which is hashed and cheksumed to form address AA.  A proper wallet would record "a" and "AA".  If MtGox's custom wallet was broken such that after randomly generating "a" instead of producing address "AA" it produced address "BB" then contrary to the linked post, there is no way to find private key "b" from address "BB".  The coins are now at "BB" which has an unknown key and they were never sent to "AA" which is the address for the key MtGox has.

The linked post is just a theory and if right (MtGox doesn't have the private keys from the addresses containing 800,000 BTC) then those coins are "gone" forever*.  If you could "recover" those coins then it wouldn't really matter because Bitcoin is completely broken and worthless.

Furthermore I would add nobody even knows if this is the case.  Mark (and his lawyers) have been very vague on the exact status of the "lost/stolen/missing/unavailable" coins and the reason for that status.   


* Well at least until the cryptographic primitives are weakened by cryptanalysis to make a brute force attack possible which could be 0 to infinite years from now.

[fryarminer]

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

Please read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

Yeah I read it an it is utter nonsense written by someone who doesn't understand that private keys are random and addresses are derived from those private keys.  

Private key a is a random 256 bit number.  Using ECDSA and priv_key a produces pubkey A which is hashed and cheksumed to form address AA.  A proper wallet would record "a" and "AA".  If MtGox's custom wallet was broken such that instead of producing address AA they produced address BB there is no way to find private key b from address BB.  The coins are now at "BB" which has an unknown key and they were never sent to "AA" which is the address for the key MtGox has.

The linked post is just a theory and if right (MtGox doesn't have the private keys from the addresses containing 800,000 BTC) then those coins are "gone" forever*.  If you could "recover" those coins then it wouldn't really matter because Bitcoin is completely broken and worthless.


* Well at least until the cryptographic primitives are weakened by cryptanalysis to make a brute force attack possible which could be 0 to infinite years from now.

Ok, well the private keys are probably not restorable, but something should be done to pay back people who have suffered because of this.

[Biomech]

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

Please read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

Yeah I read it an it is utter nonsense written by someone who doesn't understand that private keys are random and addresses are derived from those private keys.  

Private key a is a random 256 bit number.  Using ECDSA and priv_key a produces pubkey A which is hashed and cheksumed to form address AA.  A proper wallet would record "a" and "AA".  If MtGox's custom wallet was broken such that instead of producing address AA they produced address BB there is no way to find private key b from address BB.  The coins are now at "BB" which has an unknown key and they were never sent to "AA" which is the address for the key MtGox has.

The linked post is just a theory and if right (MtGox doesn't have the private keys from the addresses containing 800,000 BTC) then those coins are "gone" forever*.  If you could "recover" those coins then it wouldn't really matter because Bitcoin is completely broken and worthless.


* Well at least until the cryptographic primitives are weakened by cryptanalysis to make a brute force attack possible which could be 0 to infinite years from now.

Advanced math is not my strongpoint, but what you say is what I have understood as well.

In truth, I don't believe the keys are missing or that Gox was hacked. I think somebody on the inside stole it. I have strong (but unproven) suspicions of Mark Karpeles himself, since NOBODY in charge of a business would fail to note a monetary hemorrhage of that magnitude. Hell, when I was an assistant manager, I'd redo the numbers ten times to find five bucks. I was in charge of a few thousand dollars, not a King's Ransom.

The whole thing stinks of fish.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Ok, well the private keys are probably not restorable, but something should be done to pay back people who have suffered because of this.

So MtGox is too big to fail and there should be "super users" who have the ability to generate hundreds of thousands of new coins by decree?  You have just reinvented the existing banking system.  Bitcoin was suppose to be digital gold.  If a ship carrying 750,000 ounces of gold for a depository sunk in irrecoverably deep water and the depository was uninsured you couldn't just magic up another 750,000 ounces of gold.

Any hard fork or alteration of the core bitcoin rules essentially has no chance of consensus and if it did it would undermine all the touted benefits of Bitcoin.  What is different about "Gavin" (as if he had the power) minting 750,000 BTC by decree, compared to the federal reserve printing a sum of USD from nothing?

[Biomech]

Ok, well the private keys are probably not restorable, but something should be done to pay back people who have suffered because of this.

So MtGox is too big to fail and there should be "super users" who have the ability to generate hundreds of thousands of new coins by decree?  You have just reinvented the existing banking system.  Bitcoin was suppose to be digital gold.  If a ship carrying 750,000 ounces of gold for a depository sunk in irrecoverably deep water and the depository was uninsured you couldn't just magic up another 750,000 ounces of gold.

Any hard fork or alteration of the core bitcoin rules essentially has no chance of consensus and if it did it would undermine all the touted benefits of Bitcoin.  What is different about "Gavin" (as if he had the power) minting 750,000 BTC by decree, compared to the federal reserve printing a sum of USD from nothing?

+ infinity! If the coins are truly lost, let 'em go. The rise in value will help to compensate people. In addition, they DID file bankruptcy. Their other assets will be sold, and disbursed as at least some compensation to the bagholders.

It does suck, but it is not the end of bitcoin. If the coins were actually stolen, they'll eventually recirculate. Not cool for those who lost, but no harm to bitcoin. If they are lost, again not cool for those who lost, but the coin becomes automatically more valuable on scarcity alone.

Gox going down in flames is also positive for bitcoin, as they were a nightmare already.

[jl2012]

In the name of Satoshi please stop mentioning a fork here. It makes me feel sick 

If it is just about trying to recover a potentially lost private key, then yes, why not?

[romerun]

well, first thing to do before spending more thought is to extract the truth from Mark or Gox, force maybe necessary as it's been proven that they are not cooperative and continue lying.

[Biomech]

well, first thing to do before spending more thought is to extract the truth from Mark or Gox, force maybe necessary as it's been proven that they are not cooperative and continue lying.

No violence really necessary, other than a thug to hold him down for a minute while you hook up the Sodium Amytal drip.

[TheFootMan]

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

Please read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z8fmc/mtgox_private_key_related_coin_loss_a_explanation/

Yeah I read it an it is utter nonsense written by someone who doesn't understand that private keys are random and addresses are derived from those private keys.  

Private key a is a random 256 bit number.  Using ECDSA and priv_key a produces pubkey A which is hashed and cheksumed to form address AA.  A proper wallet would record "a" and "AA".  If MtGox's custom wallet was broken such that after randomly generating "a" instead of producing address "AA" it produced address "BB" then contrary to the linked post, there is no way to find private key "b" from address "BB".  The coins are now at "BB" which has an unknown key and they were never sent to "AA" which is the address for the key MtGox has.

The linked post is just a theory and if right (MtGox doesn't have the private keys from the addresses containing 800,000 BTC) then those coins are "gone" forever*.  If you could "recover" those coins then it wouldn't really matter because Bitcoin is completely broken and worthless.

Furthermore I would add nobody even knows if this is the case.  Mark (and his lawyers) have been very vague on the exact status of the "lost/stolen/missing/unavailable" coins and the reason for that status.  


* Well at least until the cryptographic primitives are weakened by cryptanalysis to make a brute force attack possible which could be 0 to infinite years from now.

Thanks for the explanation. This makes sense.

However as someone said on the original Reddit thread:

--- The only thing that's clear is we need a thorough investigation and time is of the essence.

Before we make any more speculation, it's necessary to find out exactly what has happened. And I'm not sure if Mark's the right person to be able to do that right now. Perhaps he should enter more of an advisory role, and have a team of skilled devs/auditors looking into it.

Before we have established what exactly is the problem it is not possible to fix it, and it might as well be unfixable, but then there was at least an attempt to fix it..

Ok, well the private keys are probably not restorable, but something should be done to pay back people who have suffered because of this.

So MtGox is too big to fail and there should be "super users" who have the ability to generate hundreds of thousands of new coins by decree?  You have just reinvented the existing banking system.  Bitcoin was suppose to be digital gold.  If a ship carrying 750,000 ounces of gold for a depository sunk in irrecoverably deep water and the depository was uninsured you couldn't just magic up another 750,000 ounces of gold.

Any hard fork or alteration of the core bitcoin rules essentially has no chance of consensus and if it did it would undermine all the touted benefits of Bitcoin.  What is different about "Gavin" (as if he had the power) minting 750,000 BTC by decree, compared to the federal reserve printing a sum of USD from nothing?

I agree with DAT here.

well, first thing to do before spending more thought is to extract the truth from Mark or Gox, force maybe necessary as it's been proven that they are not cooperative and continue lying.

The funny thing is that force might be exactly the thing that would be needed, although most us are too civil to condone that kind of thing, if we did and claimed it was for the greater god, who would we be like then?

In the name of Satoshi please stop mentioning a fork here. It makes me feel sick  

If it is just about trying to recover a potentially lost private key, then yes, why not?

I do not talk about making a fork. I talk about doing an investigation and then see if anything could be done. It could be that privkeys are encrypted, and the password who mark stored on an usb disk is gone or corrupted for example..

[DeathAndTaxes]

Thanks for the explanation. This makes sense.

However as someone said on the original Reddit thread:

--- The only thing that's clear is we need a thorough investigation and time is of the essence.

Before we make any more speculation, it's necessary to find out exactly what has happened. And I'm not sure if Mark's the right person to be able to do that right now. Perhaps he should enter more of an advisory role, and have a team of skilled devs/auditors looking into it.

Before we have established what exactly is the problem it is not possible to fix it, and it might as well be unfixable, but then there was at least an attempt to fix it..

This I agree on.  MtGox alleges they don't have 800K BTC that they "should have".  There are about a half dozen credible theories as to why that is the case.  MtGox has been totally silent and opaque on the issue.  Mark's comments to date have been either false or vague to the point of being useless.

Until MtGox provides some clarity on EXACTLY how they ended up short 800K BTC, it is all academic speculation.

[dreamspark]

Its just so unfathomable to think of that amount of BTC just being lost. The fact that gox has said nothing just adds to the speculation.

I think this is the main issue and until we hear anything from gox themselves all manor of possibilities could be true.

In terms of hard fork to recover funds due to people not understanding counter-party risk ... er no.