Should the UK return the Venezuelan gold?

[bitmover]

You swap hard-totalitarianism for soft-totalitarianism. Capitalism is what you will not get.

Maybe.
But it's possible to get a real capitalist economy in a few decades. At least we can try .

 Latin America socialist policies do not let people develop their talents, create their small companies, etc. I am not talking about a perfect country, just a Better life for people who want to work and study.

The dynamics you just described is what we have in Brazil now. However, we are shifting now to something different.

 It's a long term process, changing our institutions and the way we think. Now, everyone needs the government to make money: you need to work for the government, or sell your good to the government, or makes services to he government to make money . The idea is to reduce the government so people can live their lives away from it. It's possible for us, we are not doomed forever to live this way.

And of USA is somehow helping our neighbors I'm the process, that's amazing. I don't get why people think it's ok to have our economy destroyed by socialists allied to Cuba China and Russia, but it's bad to rebuild the economy with USA money. Europe did that after the war. Why can't we?

[Carlton Banks]

But it's possible to get a real capitalist economy in a few decades. At least we can try .

Agreed. You do now have an opportunity to change Brazil. And I said "you" have an opportunity, not "Bolsonaro", the people need to be capitalists whatever he does or says

Now, everyone needs the government to make money: you need to work for the government, or sell your good to the government, or makes services to he government to make money . The idea is to reduce the government so people can live their lives away from it. It's possible for us, we are not doomed forever to live this way.

And of USA is somehow helping our neighbors I'm the process, that's amazing. I don't get why people think it's ok to have our economy destroyed by socialists allied to Cuba China and Russia, but it's bad to rebuild the economy with USA money. Europe did that after the war. Why can't we?

Ask Europeans how that worked out. They'd tell you they ended up with capitalist-socialism (France, Scandinavia etc), or state capitalism (everywhere else).

[Artemis3]

The human rights violations by the current Venezuela government (and military) are very real and the government should not be able to stay in power because of these violations.

You're wrong.

The human rights violations started when the US placed Venezuela under economic sanctions in 2004, after Chavez defended himself against a US sponsored coup. Chavez and Maduro have no reason to starve everyone half to death, but the US state department does.


Chavez was a bit of an asshole. Maduro also. I don't like totalitarians, period.

But the US state department does like human rights abusing totalitarian dictators; so long as they do what they're told to by the US state dept. That's why Saddam, Gadaffi, Chavez and Maduro have been targetted; the fact that they're assholes is not the problem (they all apparently threatened or even began to trade oil outside SWIFT/dollar system before their demise). They're independent assholes, and the US (and also China and Russia) don't tolerate independent despots.

Eh? The US has nothing to do with people starving, it was Maduro's idiotic "command economy" taken straight out from the extinct eastern "real socialism" bloc. Keep the absurd USD Peg, fixate prices, and order the central bank to create money from nowhere to pay wages... What could possibly go wrong? Everything did.

"Inflation does not exist in real life" -- Luis Salas, Jan 7th, 2016. Maduro's "ministry of economy", a sociologist...
For economy czar of crisis-hit Venezuela, inflation 'does not exist'.

In 2004 Venezuela had no issues with food or medicine shortages, this all started as soon as Chavez died and Maduro seized power.

In those years the only sanction i could remember was a ban on weapon dealings from American companies. So Venezuela switched from buying American weapons and started buying Russian weapons, this had no impact to the people as the only consumer of weapons are the military.

Maduro may end like Noriega, or Gaddafi depending on his choices. Either way the people will celebrate when ANYONE opens the economy. Enough is enough.

[Lauda]

Eh? The US has nothing to do with people starving, it was Maduro's idiotic "command economy" taken straight out from the extinct eastern "real socialism" bloc.
-snip-

Please stop reading the fake news mainstream media. Were it not for the strict US sactions it wouldn't have either: 1) Gotten as bad as it is. 2) Gotten this bad this fast. I am no fan of Maduro, but the real reason which caused this situation isn't the attempted socialism but because he did not bow down to the US war machine. It's the same damn story wherever they have tried to intervene each time so far.
"Human rights crisis" - ask them how their contributions to the citizens of Yemen are going? Ah right, supplying bombs and keeping quiet.

[Carlton Banks]

Eh? The US has nothing to do with people starving, it was Maduro's idiotic "command economy" taken straight out from the extinct eastern "real socialism" bloc. Keep the absurd USD Peg, fixate prices, and order the central bank to create money from nowhere to pay wages... What could possibly go wrong? Everything did.

I agree. Maduro still would have screwed Venezuela up, Chavez set up the nutty politcal culture over there, it's not like Maduro changed it all overnight. Maduro (and Chavez equally) were just lazy in their thinking; when you're in control of so much oil, it's too tempting to think you can do just about anything, because the oil exports are always there to keep the country afloat, it's the curse of mineral rich nations.


But pretending that US sanctions didn't accelerate a bad situation into something many times worse is just wilful ignorance. Once the easy option (exporting oil) was gone, the crazy policies had nothing to help prop the up anymore. You can't make a reasonable claim that the crazy policies were ultimately responsible, it was killing the safety net (oil exports) that put Venezuela in this situation. They have enough oil to carry on with the craziest government on earth (just look at the Saudis), so long as the oil can be openly sold.

[Artemis3]

But pretending that US sanctions didn't accelerate a bad situation into something many times worse is just wilful ignorance. Once the easy option (exporting oil) was gone, the crazy policies had nothing to help prop the up anymore. You can't make a reasonable claim that the crazy policies were ultimately responsible, it was killing the safety net (oil exports) that put Venezuela in this situation. They have enough oil to carry on with the craziest government on earth (just look at the Saudis), so long as the oil can be openly sold.

Only now the money from exporting oil to the US is stopping, or more precisely, given to Guaidó instead of Maduro. There were no "sanctions" of that sort before 2019. In all the years of Chavez and Maduro, Venezuelan oil has kept going to the United States. The couple of American companies that left back then (over disagreements on conditions changed by Chavez) did not mean the oil stopped flowing. It was all sent by the Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA to the other Venezuelan state oil company CITGO in the US.

The money never stopped coming, the problem is what they did to that money, most of it gone in corruption and absurd subsidies (gasoline is still nearly free in Venezuela). Unlike the Saudis, who, at least in addition to their family riches, also invested in their country...

[Carlton Banks]

Only now the money from exporting oil to the US is stopping, or more precisely, given to Guaidó instead of Maduro. There were no "sanctions" of that sort before 2019. In all the years of Chavez and Maduro, Venezuelan oil has kept going to the United States. The couple of American companies that left back then (over disagreements on conditions changed by Chavez) did not mean the oil stopped flowing. It was all sent by the Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA to the other Venezuelan state oil company CITGO in the US.

Self evidently not true, you obviously know alot of the details, yet you're avoiding the fact that Venezuela was prevented from using USD now for several years (hence Maduro's eventual introduction of the Petro state cryptocurrency in 2017). It's a big barrier to selling oil exports if you cannot transact in the currency in which it's priced.

[talkbits]

No way! they should return that after maduro presidency!

[Artemis3]

Only now the money from exporting oil to the US is stopping, or more precisely, given to Guaidó instead of Maduro. There were no "sanctions" of that sort before 2019. In all the years of Chavez and Maduro, Venezuelan oil has kept going to the United States. The couple of American companies that left back then (over disagreements on conditions changed by Chavez) did not mean the oil stopped flowing. It was all sent by the Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA to the other Venezuelan state oil company CITGO in the US.

Self evidently not true, you obviously know alot of the details, yet you're avoiding the fact that Venezuela was prevented from using USD now for several years (hence Maduro's eventual introduction of the Petro state cryptocurrency in 2017). It's a big barrier to selling oil exports if you cannot transact in the currency in which it's priced.

Lies, i have told countless times in this forum, and yet you people repeat the same falsehood again. We were never stopped from using USD by anyone but the regime itself. Quite the irony at that. Petro wasn't introduced to bypass US sanctions against Venezuela, it was possibly introduced to bypass US sanctions against corrupt and criminal individuals from Venezuela, who are suddenly finding their ill gotten money frozen. But more likely, to cover the horrid policy of creating fiat money from nowhere and blaming it all on the "Evil Empire".

Let me repeat this to you in case you don't get it. Up until 2019, yes THIS YEAR, Oil (Petroleum) from Venezuela has been going into the USA (to CITGO), and sold there for USD. That money then enters PDVSA (the Venezuelan State Oil company) and "by law" is all given to the Central Bank of Venezuela, where the regime "assigns it" to a few select elite at "preferential price" and spends the rest only God knows how (because they suspended accountability, by declaring the National Assembly invalid when they lost most of their seats there). We know SOME of it is used to buy food at outrageous prices from other countries to sell subsidized here. You can rest assured some elite, either good friend, family or military close to the regime gets to keep the profits from importing that.

And just you wait until you learn about the money making scheme the "foreign currency exchange control" does to them... I might hold to explain that with more detail in a separate thread. When the American asic manufacturer butterfly labs went bankrupt, why was a Venezuelan willing to buy the whole thing and sell it back at price? Because of this...

Venezuela has two separate USD prices: One "legal" the select few Elite can obtain, and one "illegal" everyone can buy at 3x or more. Of course, those who obtain the legal price, proceed to illegally sell it (directly or indirectly by buy/sell things) in the parallel (black) market.

So in "socialist" Venezuela, you get to make lots of money if you happen to be real friends with someone with the decision to assign things to you, just like it always has been in all socialist countries. At the expense of the misery, disease and starvation of the masses, of course.

So by having the right connections, you can convert 1,000 USD to 3,000 USD, 3,000 USD to 9,000 USD, 9,000 USD to 27,000 USD...
But wait, that is not even the most lucrative business...

100 USD fills a gasoline tanker truck. Make that tanker "somehow" cross the border, and it becomes 40,000 USD. Are the military involved? Yup. Does this occur by sea on ship tankers too? Yup. Socialism is a machine for corruption, and those are the only people getting sanctioned, not Venezuela.

Something similar has been occurring with the subsidized food too, on a smaller (but sometimes even more lucrative) scale. And well, since everything is technically illegal anyway, and you are bribing all over the place, some bonus drug-trafficking goes on too. That is how Maduro's nephews using a plane belonging to State Oil PDVSA, ended arrested in Haiti with a LOT of cocaine they intended to bring to the USA.

When you see a rich Maduro official (diplomat or whatever) getting his/her assets frozen abroad, do no feel the least sympathy for them, and do not think the sanctions are against the country, they are not, that is a blatant lie. The sanctions are against specific individuals, with full name, not "anyone from Venezuela".

[Lauda]

It looks like neoconservatists are nutjobs that are a danger to everyone. I can only advise independent readers to say no to the US corrupted warmachine, with or without Maduro.

[Artemis3]

It looks like neoconservatists are nutjobs that are a danger to everyone. I can only advise independent readers to say no to the US corrupted warmachine, with or without Maduro.

Lets see, "neoconservatists" would be those who want keep the current status quo, ie. Maduro in power... But now is opening a chance to end it after years of stagnation, grief and dead.

So better keep things alone and do nothing, because that is somehow better than taking a chance the people have been waiting for decades?

I don't think so...

[Lauda]

It looks like neoconservatists are nutjobs that are a danger to everyone. I can only advise independent readers to say no to the US corrupted warmachine, with or without Maduro.

Lets see, "neoconservatists" would be those who want keep the current status quo, ie. Maduro in power... But now is opening a chance to end it after years of stagnation, grief and dead.

I was referring to the US neoconservatists which are desperate for war.

So better keep things alone and do nothing, because that is somehow better than taking a chance the people have been waiting for decades?

I don't think so...

Right, and how have these interventions worked out so far? How many had to die because the US was trying to "restore democracy"? If this really gets on the way, you can expect false flag chemical attacks in Venezuela as well.

[Artemis3]

Right, and how have these interventions worked out so far? How many had to die because the US was trying to "restore democracy"? If this really gets on the way, you can expect false flag chemical attacks in Venezuela as well.

Do you have any remote idea how many people have to die every year because of the current regime? 20k+.

Since Guaidó's proclamation on Jan 23, only in political demonstrations alone, 35 have been killed by the gov armed forces.. Today is an important demonstration day, how many more will die?

At the same time, this country has the highest crime rate of the hemisphere, with Caracas often surpassing Hondura's worst city (San Pedro Sula) with violent crime deaths per capita.

There is also the deaths provoked by socialist economy. An economy that resulted in no medicine and barely food.

So by both inaction and action, every day that passes without change, more people die. There is more if you dare to search a little. Just search "violent deaths Venezuela"...

There is also documented torture, as i posted in one of the threads...

[Carlton Banks]

Do you have any remote idea how many people have to die every year because of the current regime? 20k+.

No, much more than that. Worldwide, it's in the 100's of thousands per year, and that's the low level genocide. Millions were killed in Syria, millions were killed in Iraq, millions killed in Libya, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Cambodia, Korea...

Since Guaidó's proclamation on Jan 23, only in political demonstrations alone, 35 have been killed by the gov armed forces.. Today is an important demonstration day, how many more will die?

At the same time, this country has the highest crime rate of the hemisphere, with Caracas often surpassing Hondura's worst city (San Pedro Sula) with violent crime deaths per capita.

There is also the deaths provoked by socialist economy. An economy that resulted in no medicine and barely food.

So by both inaction and action, every day that passes without change, more people die. There is more if you dare to search a little. Just search "violent deaths Venezuela"...

There is also documented torture, as i posted in one of the threads...

Oh you're talking about the Maduro regime? I thought you meant the regime of the people you think should "save" (i.e. kill) the Venezuelan population. Sorry, my bad.

(I hear the US regime "tortured some folks" too, the US president said it)

[RomanZil]

This gold belongs to Venezuela so UK can't forbide them to return their own gold. Even though UK doesn't support Maduro's policy, it's not fair to use such sitiation as a political weapon

[Artemis3]

This gold belongs to Venezuela so UK can't forbide them to return their own gold. Even though UK doesn't support Maduro's policy, it's not fair to use such sitiation as a political weapon

The gold belongs to Venezuela but Maduro is not recognized and therefore has no authority over it.

[Lauda]

This gold belongs to Venezuela so UK can't forbide them to return their own gold. Even though UK doesn't support Maduro's policy, it's not fair to use such sitiation as a political weapon

The gold belongs to Venezuela but Maduro is not recognized and therefore has no authority over it.

You really are a delusional normie, aren't you? Now wonder the US media machine easily manipulates the mass folk when individuals are of your type.

Do you have any remote idea how many people have to die every year because of the current regime? 20k+.

No, much more than that. Worldwide, it's in the 100's of thousands per year, and that's the low level genocide. Millions were killed in Syria, millions were killed in Iraq, millions killed in Libya, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Cambodia, Korea...

Millions and more to come until the $ collapses.