focus st vs mazda speed3 vs hyundai veloster which to buy?

[umair127]

The things the MS3 definitely has over the ST are time-on-market and aftermarket support. The MS3 has been around since 2007, so it's a well-known vehicle and any bugs or shortcomings have been resolved by either Mazda or the aftermarket. MazdaspeedForums is a jackpot of info and advice for the MS3 and there are several manufacturers and vendors who offer a huge range of reliability and performance upgrades. New Mini is like the New Beetle.Old: AwesomeNew: Lulz

Why fwd? You prefer the torque steer feel or just trying to save a couple k?

For zipping around town FWD is fine and responds more safely at the limit of grip. Usually better MPGs and increased interior room per wheelbase.

Responds more safely at the point of grip? Maybe some fwd with a good lsd you might be able to push into corners as well as other drivetrains, but I've felt as confident in only one of my fwd vehicles. But then after a few years i lost the front around a corner and drove into a rail while driving at the edge of handling. After aggressively driving for over 10 years in fwd, awd and rwd vehicles, I seriously question your assertion.

Better to understeer, brake, and regain control than lose the ass end and head backwards towards whatever direction your momentum is going to carry you.

I'm sure we could find some numbers that reflect what type of drivetrain corners best.

Maybe they should make corvettes, lambos and whatever fwd. They would corner better according to your logic. What are all these producers of performance vehicles thinking? They need you on the team man.

[zolace]

He never said they corner better. He said that at the extremes of grip, they're easier to recover and safer.

[umair127]

He never said they corner better. He said that at the extremes of grip, they're easier to recover and safer.

He didn't express that very well. Preference in handling dynamics is quite subjective anyway, so I relent. It's clear he is a fwd enthusiast, and I'm totally ok with that.

[zolace]

Never driven the MS3, but I just picked up an ST a few weeks ago. Fun little car, it does have a few quirks though and Ford is working on them/aware of them (nothing major in my opinion, but annoyances). I love the recaros!

[umair127]

The single last thing I want to say is that if I start to understeer, I hit the throttle to kick the back end out a little to compensate. I try not to brake anywhere once i'm fully into in a corner. I guess the bottom line is that fwd is best for amateur drivers. Again, not trying to hate on anyone that prefers fwd, because there are some great fun fwd cars. I love the feel of a civic hatch and some mazdas. They are front wheel drive perfection, while the 02 altima se that i had was an example of complete failure. Overall though, to an experienced driver, fwd is clearly inferior. Imho it's not worth a couple grand savings and trying to justify whatever flawed logic to spend 25 or whatever k on a performance oriented wrong wheel drive car. The idea behind spending extra for speed is that it's the most fun possible. Why I really miss s2k so much.

[sana8410]

umair127 is missing the point. Not everyone drifts on their way to work, but they may still enjoy a vehicle that is fun within the limits defined by their daily driving.

He never said they corner better. He said that at the extremes of grip, they're easier to recover and safer.

He didn't express that very well. ...

For zipping around town FWD is fine and responds more safely at the limit of grip. Usually better MPGs and increased interior room per wheelbase.

[umair127]

umair127 is missing the point. Not everyone drifts on their way to work, but they may still enjoy a vehicle that is fun within the limits defined by their daily driving.

He never said they corner better. He said that at the extremes of grip, they're easier to recover and safer.

He didn't express that very well. ...

For zipping around town FWD is fine and responds more safely at the limit of grip. Usually better MPGs and increased interior room per wheelbase.

Ya it still was not explained well in my perception, because i'm coming from the perspective of someone who knows how to drive and can corner faster and safer in rwd/awd.

[Rigon]

If you're going to get an MS3, now is the time to do it. It's not known when or if Mazda will make another. Their new 3 body style just came out and there have been no indications a Mazdaspeed version will be made. It's not unreasonable to assume there won't be another because Mazda is concentrating on fuel efficiency and appeal to wider markets in the their whole line-up.

[sana8410]

umair127 is missing the point. Not everyone drifts on their way to work, but they may still enjoy a vehicle that is fun within the limits defined by their daily driving.

He never said they corner better. He said that at the extremes of grip, they're easier to recover and safer.

He didn't express that very well. ...

For zipping around town FWD is fine and responds more safely at the limit of grip. Usually better MPGs and increased interior room per wheelbase.

Ya it still was not explained well in my perception, because i'm coming from the perspective of someone who knows how to drive and can corner faster and safer in rwd/awd.

Cool, bro. It's still easier (and safer) to recover from grip loss in a FWD than a RWD and the sort of slide FWD is prone to is safer for public road use. That aside, you still get more interior room per wheelbase. The lack of a transmission hump, drive-shaft tunnel, rear diff & axles makes a huge difference.

[Rigon]

The ST is vastly superior to the MS3 except for HP. It's not that far off though. I got my ST3 for 24.4. Best car all around. Mine is tuned ($500) and is nodded wrx fast.

[sana8410]

The ST is vastly superior to the MS3 except for HP. It's not that far off though. I got my ST3 for 24.4. Best car all around. Mine is tuned ($500) and is nodded wrx fast.

You can try, might even manage to put up a half way appreciable fight, but you ain't gonna win:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flqp-Lh-gcw

[umair127]

umair127 is missing the point. Not everyone drifts on their way to work, but they may still enjoy a vehicle that is fun within the limits defined by their daily driving.

He never said they corner better. He said that at the extremes of grip, they're easier to recover and safer.

He didn't express that very well. ...

For zipping around town FWD is fine and responds more safely at the limit of grip. Usually better MPGs and increased interior room per wheelbase.

Ya it still was not explained well in my perception, because i'm coming from the perspective of someone who knows how to drive and can corner faster and safer in rwd/awd.

Cool, bro. It's still easier (and safer) to recover from grip loss in a FWD than a RWD and the sort of slide FWD is prone to is safer for public road use. That aside, you still get more interior room per wheelbase. The lack of a transmission hump, drive-shaft tunnel, rear diff & axles makes a huge difference.

In comparing rwd to fwd, you could argue all of that. Mostly because it's based on personal preference. Except for the front end creep problem. I would much rather the back end slide some than lose traction in the wheels that steer. Come around a corner very fast and hit unexpected wet pavement or gravel in fwd and see what happens. You argue that it's easier to recover, but it can create it's own specific situations in certain conditions. I just don't prefer it to rwd.

But whatever. There's nothing fwd can do that a good awd system can't do better. Drives better and feels more confident, and has more options for successful recovery in an emergency.

[Rigon]

The ST is vastly superior to the MS3 except for HP. It's not that far off though. I got my ST3 for 24.4. Best car all around. Mine is tuned ($500) and is nodded wrx fast.

You can try, might even manage to put up a half way appreciable fight, but you ain't gonna win:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flqp-Lh-gcw

stopped at stage 2 still
Nobody was comparing an sti. A Cobb tuned wrx, yes.Tune of an ST can out it at 240 HP and 330ish tq to the wheels.Don't be mad you bought and old pos design that loses every single comparo.

[umair127]

Take something like an auto legacy gt out for a ride in the rain or snow, so you don't have to worry about biasing your torque and it's easier to see what's up. You can do things that seem so unnatural and impossible while accelerating or turning. You can also use power very easily to recover. Much more than rwd or fwd can come anywhere close to. There's physics to consider. Pretty simple really.

[sana8410]

Take something like an auto legacy gt out for a ride in the rain or snow, so you don't have to worry about biasing your torque and it's easier to see what's up. You can do things that seem so unnatural and impossible while accelerating or turning. You can also use power very easily to recover. Much more than rwd or fwd can come anywhere close to. There's physics to consider. Pretty simple really.

Again, I've never owned a FWD car. I believe RWD is the superior design for fun, light, and nimble and AWD for raw power to the ground in any situation. I'm not arguing with you here.

But push come to shove I wont tell you FWD isn't the superior design for a DD that never sees snow or ice.

Maybe if i re-state it. Situations where you push a RWD car to its grip limit during recreational driving on public roads are much more scarce than a FWD.