[POLL] Should we recommend that noobs use an alternative client?

[Gabi]

Voted yes and suggested MultiBit.

But any lightweight client is fine.

The qt client is not user-friendly, it force you to download the whole blockchain wich takes like a day, it automatically creates a wallet without even telling you where it is etc etc... It would not take a lot to improve the usability and interface, just  copy-pasting the ideas of multibit would be awesome, but the developers prefer to focus on the core features (and they are right), so suggesting it to new people isn't a good idea.
Yes, once you know how bitcoin works and you learn about wallets and blockchain you probably will want to use it, but until you learn these things, something like MultiBit wich instantly works is much better.

Things like blockchain.info are fine too but i prefer a client over a web based thing.

[SouthernComfort]

The QT client is extremely not noobie friendly. Im surprised people even use it.

[mjc]

The QT client is extremely not noobie friendly. Im surprised people even use it.

You don't understand it and probably shouldn't be using bitcoins.

Well then I guess Bitcoin will never be main stream.

[evoorhees]

I strongly recommend that new users DO NOT use the satoshi client. I typically recommend Paytunia if they are super noob, or blockchain.info if they're ready for a bit more advanced functionality.

I follow the twitter feed for keyword "Bitcoin" and it's amazing how frequently some new person says something like, "wow just downloaded bitcoin and it takes forever! this is ridiculous!" And for everyone who bothers to tweet about it, a hundred more just got turned off.

The satoshi client is important for a number of reasons, but noobs should not be directed to it, ever. It shouldn't even be mentioned to them.

[SgtSpike]

The QT client is extremely not noobie friendly. Im surprised people even use it.

You don't understand it and probably shouldn't be using bitcoins.

Well then I guess Bitcoin will never be main stream.

No it will be, but it isn't ready for main stream. Just like the computer it takes years to get to a place where adoption is automatic, people are open to doing this way. Remember the computer only people who knew math were able to learn and program a computer and that was the only interface to use. We are in that era right now, of course it isn't that hard to load up bitcoin-qt but you really need to learn the basics of bitcoin before use. Today with a computer you point and click and you know what your doing. That is the place we need to get bitcoin-qt too. Right now noobies that aren't serious or fully invested into learning and studying bitcoin shouldn't be using it, or they be missing a lot of things that are need to property use bitcoins.

But we HAVE point and click options right now.  QT ISN'T for newbies.  We have OTHER options that ARE for newbies.  Why do you insist upon bringing QT to the newbie-friendly level when even Gavin has stated that that is not its purpose?

I strongly recommend that new users DO NOT use the satoshi client. I typically recommend Paytunia if they are super noob, or blockchain.info if they're ready for a bit more advanced functionality.

I follow the twitter feed for keyword "Bitcoin" and it's amazing how frequently some new person says something like, "wow just downloaded bitcoin and it takes forever! this is ridiculous!" And for everyone who bothers to tweet about it, a hundred more just got turned off.

The satoshi client is important for a number of reasons, but noobs should not be directed to it, ever. It shouldn't even be mentioned to them.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[DannyHamilton]

{clipped}

But we HAVE point and click options right now.  QT ISN'T for newbies.  We have OTHER options that ARE for newbies.  Why do you insist upon bringing QT to the newbie-friendly level when even Gavin has stated that that is not its purpose?

Are you still arguing with him over his opinion that bitcoin should only be used by those who have a deep understanding of the inner workings and a true dedication to bitcoin?  I clicked ingore and stopped wasting my time on that argument.

[gweedo]

But we HAVE point and click options right now.  QT ISN'T for newbies.  We have OTHER options that ARE for newbies.  Why do you insist upon bringing QT to the newbie-friendly level when even Gavin has stated that that is not its purpose?

You obviously didn't read my statement. Bitcoins isn't for newbies, I don't know if you knew. You do also know that those other options are suppose to be "complimentary" to QT. If you took the time to read things.

Are you still arguing with him over his opinion that bitcoin should only be used by those who have a deep understanding of the inner workings and a true dedication to bitcoin?  I clicked ingore and stopped wasting my time on that argument.

This saddens me cause we are debating like we should be on this forum. Yet this bitcoin elitist obviously thinks it is a debate not to have or argument cause my opinion is different. You troll you get ignored, your opinion is different you get ignore also, very sad. This is also a big issue people not facing facts and learning from history.

[SgtSpike]

You obviously didn't read my statement. Bitcoins isn't for newbies, I don't know if you knew. You do also know that those other options are suppose to be "complimentary" to QT. If you took the time to read things.

Bitcoin is for anyone who wants to use it. And yes, those other options are complimentary to QT, in that they cater to newbies.  Thus, we should be pointing newbies to them, not QT.  Seems pretty straightforward, right?  Point newbies to the newbie-friendly software instead of the geek-friendly software?

{clipped}

But we HAVE point and click options right now.  QT ISN'T for newbies.  We have OTHER options that ARE for newbies.  Why do you insist upon bringing QT to the newbie-friendly level when even Gavin has stated that that is not its purpose?

Are you still arguing with him over his opinion that bitcoin should only be used by those who have a deep understanding of the inner workings and a true dedication to bitcoin?  I clicked ingore and stopped wasting my time on that argument.

Normally, I'd give up as well, but I believe this is the most important issue facing Bitcoin today.  It needs to be fixed, badly.

[DannyHamilton]

{clipped}

Bitcoin is for anyone who wants to use it. And yes, those other options are complimentary to QT, in that they cater to newbies.  Thus, we should be pointing newbies to them, not QT.  Seems pretty straightforward, right?  Point newbies to the newbie-friendly software instead of the geek-friendly software?

{clipped}

But we HAVE point and click options right now.  QT ISN'T for newbies.  We have OTHER options that ARE for newbies.  Why do you insist upon bringing QT to the newbie-friendly level when even Gavin has stated that that is not its purpose?

Are you still arguing with him over his opinion that bitcoin should only be used by those who have a deep understanding of the inner workings and a true dedication to bitcoin?  I clicked ingore and stopped wasting my time on that argument.

Normally, I'd give up as well, but I believe this is the most important issue facing Bitcoin today.  It needs to be fixed, badly.

I don't disagree, making sure that new users have a diverse selection of well maintained and user friendly clients to choose from is definitely important.  Arguing with gweedo, who believes that "Right now noobies that aren't serious or fully invested into learning and studying bitcoin shouldn't be using it" however, is a waste of time.

The conversation about how to educate new users, and which clients they should consider, can exist without constantly having to tell gweedo that "Bitcoin is for anyone who wants to use it".

[gweedo]

I don't disagree, making sure that new users have a diverse selection of well maintained and user friendly clients to choose from is definitely important.  Arguing with gweedo, who believes that "Right now noobies that aren't serious or fully invested into learning and studying bitcoin shouldn't be using it" however, is a waste of time.

The conversation about how to educate new users, and which clients they should consider, can exist without constantly having to tell gweedo that "Bitcoin is for anyone who wants to use it".

You took that way out of context, is so bad that newbies should stay away from bitcoins for another year or two? I don't see the issue, yet he doesn't explain his side.

[SgtSpike]

You obviously didn't read my statement. Bitcoins isn't for newbies, I don't know if you knew. You do also know that those other options are suppose to be "complimentary" to QT. If you took the time to read things.

Bitcoin is for anyone who wants to use it. And yes, those other options are complimentary to QT, in that they cater to newbies.  Thus, we should be pointing newbies to them, not QT.  Seems pretty straightforward, right?  Point newbies to the newbie-friendly software instead of the geek-friendly software?

Now we are talking in circles. Bitcoins in general are not for newbies. AT THIS POINT IN TIME. Also keeping people who are not 100% dedicated to learning about bitcoins and to use advance features of bitcoin clients. At some point they all need to know how to sign a message, or create a rawtx it is just things that are normal for you and me, your just delaying their learning of important things. Bitcoins is still very much experimental thing in the sense that it is quiet stable as an economy yet the software that is given to us as you said is "geeky friendly" which I also disagree cause QT is very powerful, and if you read and take time to LEARN about bitcoins you can see why. I always point newbies to the QT client I think if they are serious they can learn about it. Out of 10 newbies in my personal life who have not wide range of computer skills they all were able to teach them selfs about bitcoins and how to use QT. The problem is more of patiences than "geeky-friendly". Also I think most newbies are whiny cause how many times have we seen "how do I speed up syncing", "why does syncing take so long" those people shouldn't be using bitcoin right now. In the future who knows, remember QT is still in beta, and I think so many people don't realize it or even consider it beta, cause we put so much trust into it.

Normally, I'd give up as well, but I believe this is the most important issue facing Bitcoin today.  It needs to be fixed, badly.

Obviously it isn't that big of a deal, it has already been fix try 0.8.0.

Cutting 24 hours down to 3 still isn't acceptable, and will still push people away.  There are other issues as well - some of the other clients are easier to use, more intuitive, and more explanatory.  That's why newbies should be pointed to them.

I completely disagree with you that Bitcoins are not for newbies at this time.  We have newbie-friendly software - we should point newbies to it.  QT is not ready for newbies - I agree with you on that.  But other Bitcoin clients ARE ready for newbies.  So why do we not point newbies to the clients that are ready for newbies?

Newbies don't need to learn how to sign a message (I've never used that feature myself) or create a rawtx (again, never done it).  You can use bitcoin for a lifetime and never "need" to do either of those things.  If people want to take the time to learn more about the advanced features and use the QT client, then more power to them, but no one NEEDS to learn it, not everyone WANTS to learn it, and not everyone even has the capabilities to learn it.  You shouldn't force people to learn the most advanced version of a software before learning any of it.  Kids don't learn calculus before learning algebra.  People should be introduced to a version of Bitcoin that is extremely easy to use and intuitive, and those that want to learn more can learn more from there.

QT pushing people into the deep end of the pool before they ever learn how to swim.  No wonder they immediately get out and never want to give it another shot.

I don't disagree, making sure that new users have a diverse selection of well maintained and user friendly clients to choose from is definitely important.  Arguing with gweedo, who believes that "Right now noobies that aren't serious or fully invested into learning and studying bitcoin shouldn't be using it" however, is a waste of time.

The conversation about how to educate new users, and which clients they should consider, can exist without constantly having to tell gweedo that "Bitcoin is for anyone who wants to use it".

You took that way out of context, is so bad that newbies should stay away from bitcoins for another year or two? I don't see the issue, yet he doesn't explain his side.

The issue is that people who could learn how to use Bitcoin TODAY are being pushed away for no good reason at all.  Not only do they miss out on the benefit of using Bitcoin, but we miss out on the potential that they offer more goods and services to purchase with Bitcoin, or that they offer more Bitcoins with which to buy the goods and services we are offering.  The more people who use Bitcoin, the better off everyone involved in Bitcoin will be.  Therefore, it is senseless to push people away from Bitcoin.  There is no reason that newbies should stay away from Bitcoin.

[SgtSpike]

Ok, a few counterpoints:

1)  Newbies are going to try using Bitcoin regardless of whether you think they should or should not be using it right now.  If they download QT, they will have a bad experience, they rag on Bitcoin every chance they get, and we lose potential adoption.  If they use blockchain.info, they like it, they start using it more, they send praises about it to their friends, and we gain adoption.  Now how can you possibly say that case #1 is better?

We aren't delaying those users from trying out Bitcoin - they are trying it out whether we like it or not.  We are permanently pushing those people away from Bitcoin by offering them a client not made for people new to Bitcoin.  Your proposal to ask them to wait is preposterous and unachievable.  People are going to try Bitcoin if they want to try it, and nothing you or I can do will stop it.  We may as well show them the best we have to offer instead of giving them a piece of software that is confusing and takes several hours before it is ready to use.

2)  People are used to software that is ready to use as soon as it is installed.  People are also used to wire transfers taking 3-4 days.  People are NOT used to software taking 3-4 days, and that's the whole issue.  You can't expect people to understand why it takes so long to sync to the network when they've never experienced anything like this before.  Why do you think threads titled something along the lines of "why is this taking so long to sync" appear almost daily on reddit?

3)  The network is perfectly fine with the number of full nodes we have running.  There is no legitimate reason to require people new to Bitcoin to run full nodes.

4)  I've never used a deposit box either.  I know it exists now, but I didn't know they existed before I started using a bank account.  Again, requiring people to know all facets of a particular technology before they start using any of it is silly.  It's like teaching a full course of algebra before allowing the students to do any problems on paper.  Why do that?  Instead, teach them a little bit at a time, let them use it, and then teach them more.  We shouldn't require that users know all of it before using any of it.  That's just silly.

5)  QT is more difficult to use than blockchain.info, especially if you don't know what the terminology means.  Blockchain.info explains in very clear terms what everything means - at least, much more clearly than QT does.  On the wallet homepage, for instance, it says in big bold lettering, "This is your Bitcoin address: 1blahblahblah." And yes, most people don't have much patience, so we give them the app that doesn't require patience, not the app that does.  You believing people should have more patience doesn't give it to them.

6)  Why does anyone need to understand more than the send and receive function of Bitcoin to use it?  Back to the math example, that's like saying you shouldn't use addition unless you also know algebra.  Why?  People should use it at the level they are comfortable with, and sometimes, that might only include the basic send and receive functionality.  Also, we all have to start somewhere - you can't instantly know everything about Bitcoin or anything else.  To learn algebra, you must first learn addition.  To learn about the blockchain, you must first understand sending and receiving, and often, that understanding only comes when you actually use the Bitcoin software.  So let them use addition first, and if they want to learn algebra on top of it, they can do so.


When I first started using Bitcoin, I knew very little about it.  I was skeptical, suspicious, and all I wanted to do was mine some Bitcoin and cash them out for USD as quickly as possible before I was stuck holding the bag in a scam ponzi system.  So, all I needed to know how to do was receive Bitcoins, then send them out again.  Once I got used to using Bitcoin by cashing out my coins a few times, I realized that it wasn't a scam, there was no central entity in control of things, and I became genuinely interested in the technology.  I learned more about the blockchain, the various features available to me, etc.  But I still don't know everything the client can do, nor do I believe I need to know everything it can do.  I don't understand the maths behind most of it, and I don't fully understand everything about the network or the blockchain.  Certainly, when I first started using Bitcoin, I knew nothing about any of that.

If you're saying that a person needs to understand Bitcoin and the Bitcoin network before they start using Bitcoin, then 99% of the people here (myself included) shouldn't be here, because the vast majority of us started trying out Bitcoin without having a complete understanding of "Bitcoin and the Bitcoin network."

TL:DR; Everyone has to start somewhere.  You're proposing a finish without a start.