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Author Topic: How can XMR be more private than BTC if XMR will have an huge blockchain?  (Read 2269 times)
Spoetnik
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December 30, 2016, 10:41:11 AM
 #21

Well i am getting no where here so i am dropping out LOL
We started with the topic title but the OP seemed to have steered the convo about the chain size.
So i am leaving this one because i have nothing else to say ON-TOPIC.

HoneyPony ? I thought it was "FluffyPony" ?
And no thanks i don't want any of your "Future Coins"
Why would i buy Monero when i already had BTC ?
Didn't you notice it doubled in price in the last year ?  Grin

FUD first & ask questions later™
dinofelis
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January 03, 2017, 03:02:07 PM
 #22

I was discussing this in another thread. It's pretty much assumed that Monero's blockchain will be huge if more people start using it and they will not be able to keep it from growing since they have choosen to go the dynamic blocksize route, and it's a tradeoff for the extra privacy technology for the blockchain to be biggger. The question to be asked here is: What's the point, if the blocksize is going to become so big that the nodes will be way too heavy for regular users and more and more node centralization will ensue until only specialized people will be able to run nodes?

Well, storage capacity grows over time.  But frozen-in protocols don't.  The non-mining nodes in bitcoin are worthless what concerns the decentralization of the network.  They help somewhat in having a robust transmission network of transactions from users to miners, but any non-mining node that doesn't agree, can only do one thing: drop out of the system.  A miner that doesn't agree, can mine according to his preferences, and fork off.  But a non-mining node has nothing to say.  If he doesn't propagate a transaction he doesn't like, another non-mining node will propagate it, and even in the end, the user can transmit his transaction directly to a mining node which is the only communication that matters. 

So the number of non-mining nodes for bitcoin doesn't mean much: the centralized mining is much more of a concern.

It is nevertheless interesting for an individual to keep a non-mining node running, because it can help obfuscate his own transactions, and it can help him against fake information about the bitcoin block chain.  But that's about it.

As such, even if there were 10 times less full but non-mining nodes on the bitcoin network, that wouldn't matter much.

However, what matters is the fact that there's a hard limit on the growth in the number of transactions that the block chain can handle.  We're not even a factor 10 from that ultimate limit.  Bitcoin has no order of magnitude growth in transactions left.
As most transactions are, for the moment "greater fool speculation" transactions, and not transactions used for an actual currency usage, there's still a lot of potential currency usage adoption possible in bitcoin, if the trading would go down.  But there's a hard limit built in it.

As to the size of the block chain, even a chain that would grow with 1 TB a year only means a very modest investment for a node owner at this moment.  You get a 1TB storage for the order of $100,-.  So that's peanuts.  10 years ago, 1 TB of storage was much more expensive.  We can presume that 10 years from now, 1 TB of storage will cost much less.  So if 10 years from now, a block chain grows with a few 10 TB per year, wouldn't be a big issue for an individual wanting to have a full node either.
However, if the protocol has a frozen-in limit, then these technological improvements in storage don't mean anything.

A finite block size limit sounds like Bill Gates telling that 640 KB of RAM is more than enough for any personal computer (remember ?).

dinofelis
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January 03, 2017, 03:05:23 PM
 #23

Lets think of the concept of user support.
If we wanted BTC to be supported by home users mining.. it's pointless.
Why ?
Does Monero solve that problem ?

Yes, you can home mine monero.  So yes, if you home-mine monero, you really contribute to the non-centralization of the network, something that is gone since long in bitcoin.  However, I don't know how long this will still be possible with the rising market cap of monero.
Spoetnik
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January 03, 2017, 03:35:34 PM
 #24

Lets think of the concept of user support.
If we wanted BTC to be supported by home users mining.. it's pointless.
Why ?
Does Monero solve that problem ?

Yes, you can home mine monero.  So yes, if you home-mine monero, you really contribute to the non-centralization of the network, something that is gone since long in bitcoin.  However, I don't know how long this will still be possible with the rising market cap of monero.



Why are you repeating what i said ?

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Febo
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January 27, 2017, 05:33:52 PM
 #25

I'm curious, how many full nodes does Monero actually have at this moment ?


Total nodes: 567 - Last updated: 41 minutes ago

It will go up exponentially especially when smart mining will get developed: https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/36/what-is-smart-mining


Total nodes: 723 - Last updated: 17 minutes ago

A month latter and smart mining is not yet developed and implemented in GUI but number of nodes still grow with quite nice growth rate of 27,5%
As it seems your worries are totally not needed, since number of full nodes grow extremely fast and not decrease as you predicted.
qwizzie
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January 27, 2017, 06:36:45 PM
 #26

Lets talk about sybil attack resistance for a moment, what is to prevent an entity (lets say an authority like Interpol) from setting up 800 full nodes for 10$ each
and use it to attack, disrupt or snoop in on Monero's network in its intensified fight against darknet markets ?

Security-wise the low number of full nodes and its direct connection to darknet markets is making Monero very vulnerable.
Even with 2000 full nodes, the situation does not really change .. this will still be a weakness for Monero as its direct connection to darknet markets is
putting a bullseye on Monero.  

With regards to blockchain size i think in a few years when the blockchain has grown considerably, Monero will face the same problems that Bitcoin is facing currently,
by not rewarding people to run full nodes its full nodes network will deminish over time.
  


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DaveyJones
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January 27, 2017, 06:58:32 PM
 #27


With regards to blockchain size i think in a few years when the blockchain has grown considerably, Monero will face the same problems that Bitcoin is facing currently,
by not rewarding people to run full nodes its full nodes network will deminish over time.
  



I doubt that this will ever be a problem, with regards to Nielsen's Law or Moore's Law even if slowed down https://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/
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January 28, 2017, 12:31:02 AM
Last edit: January 28, 2017, 05:33:44 AM by ArticMine
 #28

Lets talk about sybil attack resistance for a moment, what is to prevent an entity (lets say an authority like Interpol) from setting up 800 full nodes for 10$ each
and use it to attack, disrupt or snoop in on Monero's network in its intensified fight against darknet markets ?

Security-wise the low number of full nodes and its direct connection to darknet markets is making Monero very vulnerable.
Even with 2000 full nodes, the situation does not really change .. this will still be a weakness for Monero as its direct connection to darknet markets is
putting a bullseye on Monero.  

With regards to blockchain size i think in a few years when the blockchain has grown considerably, Monero will face the same problems that Bitcoin is facing currently,
by not rewarding people to run full nodes its full nodes network will deminish over time.
  



No it will not. .

Monero has an adaptive blocksize limit that avoids the whole Bitcoin blocksize debate. This adaptive blocksize limit works because Monero has a minimum block reward  of 0.6 XMR per block in perpetuity. This means that there is no need to rely on transaction fees to secure the proof of work (miners) as is the case not only in Bitcoin but in coins such as Dash that have a fixed maximum number of coins. In the case of Dash the problem is magnified since the falling block reward has to support not only the proof of work but also the masternode network and the funding of projects.

Once the fees are no longer required to support the proof of work etc., they can actually be used to create a market for scaling the blocksize. One significant advantage of this is that it avoids the kind of spam attacks against the memory pool that were recently launched against Bitcoin. These attacks rely on the fact that the bulk of the spam will never be mined because of the fixed  blcoksize effectively having a minimal cost to the spammer. As someone who runs full Bitcoin nodes I am well aware of the bandwith costs of these spam attacks.

Bitcoin's problems, or Dash's problems for that matter, with scaling cannot be solved with a continuation of Moore Law, Nielsen's Law etc. alone, because of the falling block reward approaching towards zero over time.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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