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Author Topic: Mt. Gox is an unlicensed money exchanger dealing in "crypto-currency."  (Read 9336 times)
esse83 (OP)
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May 17, 2013, 03:09:12 PM
 #141

Mt. Gox has just removed their official statement on Facebook about the DHS incident.

That is astonishing - actually removing critical information after they posted it! My take on it is that they have noticed a substanstial amount of btc being transfered out. On the 6th of may there was about 178k btc for sale, then on may 15th about 150k - and today about 134k (for sale).

About 200k BTC have changed hands in the last 60 hours or so on MtGox so maybe they were sold and are now being held by someone who hasn't relisted them for sale.

For example I purchased about 800 BTC myself yesterday and I'm only a small holder. These BTC aren't listed for sale anywhere today but they were yesterday before I acquired them.

Also more importantly - they are still on MtGox in case I want to sell them again.

The reason people are removing sell orders and buying is because the price is expected to rise.

For sure that is possible - but I was trying to find a reasonable explanation for why they removed information after they had posted it. Any other explanation is welcome as I think this move must have had some intention behind it (duh).

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May 17, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
 #142

tl;dr:

The FinCEN guidance is mostly bullshit.  Follow it at your peril.  DeathAndTaxes is spewing irrelevant nonsense, as usual.  MS, the only entity to be affected, is technically a 3rd party money transmitter.  That's why the dollars in their account were seized.  They never touched Bitcoins.  This has nothing whatsoever to do with Bitcoins.

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May 17, 2013, 03:36:03 PM
 #143

MS, the only entity to be affected, is technically a 3rd party money transmitter.  That's why the dollars in their account were seized.  They never touched Bitcoins.
This part, at least, is true. The rest is debatable.

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May 17, 2013, 03:59:12 PM
 #144

Was pleasantly surprised by the first few replies. Was expecting a bunch of negative comments along the lines of "Cya at 1 figure" etc.

I have a feeling the fall of Mt. Gox could be a good thing for BTC.. We'll see though.
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May 18, 2013, 01:28:06 AM
 #145

Mt. Gox has just removed their official statement on Facebook about the DHS incident.

That is astonishing - actually removing critical information after they posted it! My take on it is that they have noticed a substanstial amount of btc being transfered out. On the 6th of may there was about 178k btc for sale, then on may 15th about 150k - and today about 134k (for sale).

Well, if it is proved in court that they deleted that information it would not be any good to them.

At least they admit in support tickets that Dwolla widthdraws are unavailable but hiding the fact that their account got locked by authorities is just insane.

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May 18, 2013, 08:05:30 PM
 #146

So what i have gathered so far seems to be indicating that gox is being investigated for operating a money transfer service and this has been defined by the FinCen guidance (and explicitly described in the warrant) as involving an alternative currency (BTC). Therefore if Gox are found in court to have broken this law there would be a legal precedent that Bitcoin is recognised as a currency.

Could any one with better undertanding of this matter please correct me if I am wrong.
davidgdg
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May 20, 2013, 05:09:49 PM
 #147

So what i have gathered so far seems to be indicating that gox is being investigated for operating a money transfer service and this has been defined by the FinCen guidance (and explicitly described in the warrant) as involving an alternative currency (BTC). Therefore if Gox are found in court to have broken this law there would be a legal precedent that Bitcoin is recognised as a currency.

Could any one with better undertanding of this matter please correct me if I am wrong.

I have had a look at the affidavit. As far as I can tell, the position seems to be as follows:

1. A  dwolla account holder  sells his bitcoins and requests the withdrawal of his dollars to his Dwolla account.

2. Instead of Mt Gox sending those dollars directly to the customer's Dwolla account, instead it sends them to its subsdiary company ("Mutum") which is a Delaware company with an account at Wells Fargo in the U.S.

3. Mutum then sends the funds onwards to the customer's Dwolla account.

4. Mutum is thus acting as a money transmitting business but is not licensed to do so.

5. The Department of Homeland Security has obtained an order from the Maryland District Court freezing the contents of the account of Mutum at Wells Fargo.

A number of points arise:

1. The action is against Mutum rather than Mt Gox.

2.  It is unclear whether the DHS may argue in future that Mt Gox (which is a Japanese company) breaches US law by making direct payments to U.S. individuals and companies. But this is not the issue in this case, though it something that I am sure Mt Gox is considering very carefullly..

3. It is unclear why Mt Gox uses Mutum as an intermediary rather than simply remitting funds directly to U.S. customers.

4. It is unclear what any of this has to do with the Department of Homeland security

5. The affected funds are those which were in transit from Mt Gox via Mutum to customer Dwolla accounts as at the date of the freezing order. Quantity unknown.

6. It is unclear how Mt Gox will, in future, remit funds to Dwolla accounts.

7.  The freezing order is purely because Mutum acts as a money transmitting business of USD as between Mt Gox and customer dwolla accounts. It has nothing to do with the transmission by Mt Gox of BTC purchased by clients (whether in the U.S. or elsewhere).The position would be exactly the same if Mt Gox were a precious metal exchange. The freezing order is directly at the U.S. proceeds of sale being remitted via a U.S. subsidiary to dwolla accounts.





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May 20, 2013, 09:39:05 PM
 #148

Good analysis.

Questions. What is the track record of resolution of similar situations with other companies? Can Mutum apply for MSB status, quickly, retrospectively, and expect to get it? Or have they lost their chance and their US operation will remain somewhat crippled?

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May 22, 2013, 01:09:27 AM
 #149

Of course, they were Magic Gathering card exchange, they need no license back in the days.
Kazu
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May 23, 2013, 03:28:34 PM
 #150

Good analysis.

Questions. What is the track record of resolution of similar situations with other companies? Can Mutum apply for MSB status, quickly, retrospectively, and expect to get it? Or have they lost their chance and their US operation will remain somewhat crippled?

Considering the fact that the government retrospectively required them to get licensed, it would be ridiculous if they couldn't.

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