Value of testnet coins

[jackjack]

More and more people on altcoins subforum want to monetize testnet coins.
What will core devs do? Testnet4 or giving up?

[twobits]

More and more people on altcoins subforum want to monetize testnet coins.
What will core devs do? Testnet4 or giving up?

Hmm.. why the  heck would they want to do that?

[jackjack]

More and more people on altcoins subforum want to monetize testnet coins.
What will core devs do? Testnet4 or giving up?

Hmm.. why the  heck would they want to do that?

What part are you talking about? Red, Green, Blue?

[twobits]

red

[jackjack]

Testnet in a box doesn't solve everything: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213119.msg2268344#msg2268344

[jgarzik]

testnet may be reset at any time.

If somebody starts making it difficult to test with, it will get a new genesis block etc.

[gmaxwell]

More and more people on altcoins subforum want to monetize testnet coins.
What will core devs do? Testnet4 or giving up?

What are you offering for testnet coins?

1 BTC for 100TNC?

[crazy_rabbit]

testnet may be reset at any time.

If somebody starts making it difficult to test with, it will get a new genesis block etc.

True, but don't you think there would also be value in having a place where we can try things on a bitcoin like chain that we would never be allowed to try on bitcoin? So many ideas- such as https://www.proofofexistence.com/ are really very novel ideas, but then get such a hard time from people who have such a strict idea as to what exactly the blockchain should or should not be used for. 

Bitcoin itself has gotten so expensive and valuable that it seems like the 'experimental' part of the project has gotten forgotten and purists feel as thought the protocol should be 'frozen' in time exactly how it is. Where is the experimentation? Where is the real testing? Not just testing if one particular piece of code works, but testing the basic ideas of what bitcoin can be?

Sure you could just copy-paste bitcoin to start an alt-coin but I think there is a real security issue with alt-coins. No one is *really* reading the source code. Terracoin seemed like an ideal staging ground for bitcoin but after it's own troubles version after version was released in quick succesion and no one was checking to see if it was safe.

Of course, the testnet could be reset- a version 4, but that wouldn't harm the people hanging out on testnet 3 already- although it would make it more difficult to get new people onto it (we would have to show people how to get onto it though).

jgarzik, what do you personally think the testnet should be? What would actually make it difficult to test with? Other then people mining, and assuming you can alway obtain some free developing coins, how would a vibrant experimental economy of experimenters harm anyone?

[jackjack]

Sure you could just copy-paste bitcoin to start an alt-coin but I think there is a real security issue with alt-coins.

No. Copy-pasting is copy-pasting, no security issues are added. It just requires to fork the bitcoin github repo, change the genesis block/magic bytes and port, and apply every commit that are applied to the official bitcoin repo in the future. This way it's an EXACT copy of bitcoin.

No one is *really* reading the source code.

I do. I know several people who do.
Please don't extrapolate your case to others.

[crazy_rabbit]

Sure you could just copy-paste bitcoin to start an alt-coin but I think there is a real security issue with alt-coins.

No. Copy-pasting is copy-pasting, no security issues are added. It just requires to fork the bitcoin github repo, change the genesis block/magic bytes and port, and apply every commit that are applied to the official bitcoin repo in the future. This way it's an EXACT copy of bitcoin.

That's not easier then just using the testnet that already exists. KISS. Keep it simple.

No one is *really* reading the source code.

I do. I know several people who do.
Please don't extrapolate your case to others.

[/quote]

Great! And we need more people like you and your several friends out in the community checking each and every line of every alt-coin and update that comes out, every day. The community really thrives on this sort of support.

For the rest of us though who don't have so much time, or maybe aren't so skilled, the safer bet is to just use bitcoin as-is and enable testnet in the config file. I don't think I'm extrapolating too much when I go out on a limb to say most people here would rather be able to trust the source and spend our time learning how to build cool new things.

One of the reasons I believe in testnet is that it is also a great staging ground where new bitcoiners can come into the community with their own projects. I know from my own experience in running the terrawallet simple coding errors or problems with the chain can lead to big problems. Had I been running it on bitcoin I would have been royally screwed. But just because I can't create something perfect the first time doesn't mean I don't have a right to try and do it. What I, and many other developers do need, is a real chain, that has some sort of real marginal value, where the risks involved on the chain are implicit for all users, where we can develop real projects that we hope to launch onto bitcoin main-net, but where we can practice, tweak, fine tune, perfect without the fear that the errors gained by experience will blow up in our face.

Duping any number of these chains just to 'not use testnet' robs young developers like myself of the opportunity of being able to test on a chain without needing first to pull the whole thing out of thin air. Testnet is safe, secure, and widespread. It's NAME is testnet for heavens sake. Let people TEST on it.

[Hydroponica]

Hmmm, value for testnet coins? They aren't worth anything, they are TEST COINS!!!

[jackjack]

Sure you could just copy-paste bitcoin to start an alt-coin but I think there is a real security issue with alt-coins.

No. Copy-pasting is copy-pasting, no security issues are added. It just requires to fork the bitcoin github repo, change the genesis block/magic bytes and port, and apply every commit that are applied to the official bitcoin repo in the future. This way it's an EXACT copy of bitcoin.

That's not easier then just using the testnet that already exists.

But it IS easier than using testnetN-1 each time that core devs make testnetN


Oh Lord. WTF am I even reading.
You know what? Ok, great, go on, make testnet coins valuable and try to sell them.

[BladeRunner]

Sure you could just copy-paste bitcoin to start an alt-coin but I think there is a real security issue with alt-coins. No one is *really* reading the source code. Terracoin seemed like an ideal staging ground for bitcoin but after it's own troubles version after version was released in quick succesion and no one was checking to see if it was safe.

Yea its called Bytecoins.. People are still mining them. its a copy of bitcoins, but cannot be reset.

[crazy_rabbit]

Sure you could just copy-paste bitcoin to start an alt-coin but I think there is a real security issue with alt-coins.

No. Copy-pasting is copy-pasting, no security issues are added. It just requires to fork the bitcoin github repo, change the genesis block/magic bytes and port, and apply every commit that are applied to the official bitcoin repo in the future. This way it's an EXACT copy of bitcoin.

That's not easier then just using the testnet that already exists.

But it IS easier than using testnetN-1 each time that core devs make testnetN


Oh Lord. WTF am I even reading.
You know what? Ok, great, go on, make testnet coins valuable and try to sell them.

Your missing the point.

If I copy past fork bitcoin and change the genesis block, it will make me responsible for maintaining the code base. If not me, someone else would be. And then everyone would have to trust me that every time there is some update people will have to trust that I haven't worked some malicious code changes into the mix. Not everyone is competent enough to check the code every time. 

This is why I do not advocate some bitcoin clone because it creates a point of vulnerability. We trust the bitcoin devs, and by using testnet we don't introduce any vulnerabilities from some new random dev that forks the code.