Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes)

[MoonShadow]

Unless you live deep in the amazon jungle you have to pay taxes, anywhere in the world. Theres no getting away from it.

I pay no taxes and live in no amazon jungle.
Freeganism.

I thought you lived in the US, do you not pay sales taxes?  Do you never buy anything at all?

Hi.
Never. Anything. At all.

And no one buys anything on your behalf either, I suppose.

Complicated question. Technically yes and arguably no.
I rely on the gift economy.
I do not order at reastauants.
I encourage others to practice freeganism.
When I go to the store with my state permission to steal $200ebt of food, I do not incur debt to my person.
I do not handle federal reserve notes, as a rule.
If someone gives me something they bought "on my behalf", their purchase does not happen on my behalf or request.

Call it ethical bumming or boycotting of consumerism.

You're a parasite.  I wouldn't call that ethical.

You're not nice -- that's worse

It may not be nice to point it out, but it is what she is.  She is an able bodied,

Nope.
[

Feel free to clarify.

young adult who lives off of the kindness of others and the forced taxation of others;

Best way to live. I'd be much better off without the taxes, admittedly.

by her own admission above.  

You mean your assumptions and prejudiced conclusions?

No matter how I may feel about food stamps, the food assistance program was established to help out families who could not afford to buy enough healthy foodstuffs to feed their families.  

And my zero income, smash the state, end the fed anarchist ways are robbing little children. Okay. Normally, I'd be yelling very colorful obscenities at you irl.

Not only does she not have kids, (god help them if I'm wrong) she isn't incapable of supporting herself, she just chooses not to participate in her own support.

You're talking in the third person to degrade me. I recognize this. You are also drawing conclusions about me that are based in assumptions

 I was refering to you in the third person because I was answering someone else's charges.  I wsn't even talking to you, but if you feel degraded by it, good.

As to the point about my assumptions, I'd call them educated guesses.  Are you going to assert that my conclusions are incorrect?  Or are you just attacking my methods?

Other people give her things either because they feel sorry for her,

Like you with your time and consideration?

The irony of that statement is that, yes, I've given you much of my time and consideration. Case in point, you're not banned, yet.  You walked into our house and took a grand shit on our kitchen table, and I've let you continue to do so.  As Rassah has pointed out, I literally have to suffer fools as a mod on this forum; but there is only so much I'll take.  And you in particular, have leveled slander against me that you show no inclination towards either supporting or correcting.  If you've read your PM's today, you know that you have a time limit, and the clock is ticking.  So you need to choose; either prove your claims, withdraw your claims, or you can go completely bonkers until I pull the pin.  And no, I have not deleted any of my own posts, so whatever you think you saw is still there.  If you feel you've been unfairly treated, I'm sure Theymos would just love to hear your gripes.  

like her enough to overlook her parasitical lifestyle,

Cyberbully. If I wasn't bored to tears, I'd cry.

Go ahead.  Don't forget, you're here of your own free will.  So you must get something out of all this.

or are forced to by government taxation and redistribution schemes.  That is unethical, and the very definition of a parasite.

I can, have and intend on continue on existing without respect for the state which props up the ACTUALLY parasitic behavior of capitalists.

Okay.

EDIT:  BTW, those bitcoin transactions you note on your facebook page, that's capitalism.  How do you not hate yourself?

[MoonShadow]

How about NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, Hardy, AR, Raleigh or Asheville, ect,ect?
Have you given spare change to someone who used it to buy cigarettes I could have gotten to?

I've given away much money, and bus tickets, etc to a great many people; so I suppose it's possible.  I'm much more likely to give money to a bum with an old high & tight or a pair of jungle boots than a tail.

Or paid for a good or service from a smoker?
Do you know what a "snipe" is?

A snipe is a bird in my world, what does it mean in your native tounge?

Edit: I hereby command you by the powers vested in me by whoever to start frequenting underground grindcore shows, SCUM lesbian bars, and furry conventions. I believe one of the latter was held ajacent to San Jose 2013.

No.

[MoonShadow]

Oh, come on, you can facepalm harder than that!...

...Libertarian mods try to have minimalist rules. Players play by "the rules". The mods try not to get annoyed. They eventually get annoyed and the rule-breakers get banned. Clear as miso soup?

It's clear enough to me, and since I'm that libertarian mod you speak of,

I was keeping it general. Since Hazek & Co mostly seem Libertarian as well... /meta

Pretty much all of the mods are libertarians of some flavor, I assumed you were referring to myself because I'm the one here.

[NewLiberty]

Do you pay taxes? If so, thanks for paying the cops to kick me in the head, and the NSA to watch me, and for me to get away with $200ebt in free food sometimes.
Have I ever bummed a cigarette of of you? I can't recall.

Yes, I do pay taxes.  Against my own will, so that I don't get my own head kicked in also.  I also have the joy of paying the NSA to watch me, as well.

Here's an irony; up until very recently, I received EBT benefits as well.  I was required to accept them due to terms of a contract, with the state.  I know, a further irony.  The reason was because I was fostering two brothers, and the birth parents already received EBT, and I was obligated to maintain all benefits until such time as parental rights were terminated.  

They were terminated shortly after my wife & I adopted them, because there is no way that we qualify and no way that we were going to pursue them anyway.

I've never lived in Texas or Tennessee, nor do I smoke, nor do I frequent furry bars; so I seriously doubt I've ever given you a cigarette.

How about NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, Hardy, AR, Raleigh or Asheville, ect,ect?
Have you given spare change to someone who used it to buy cigarettes I could have gotten to?
Or paid for a good or service from a smoker?
Do you know what a "snipe" is?

Edit: I hereby command you by the powers vested in me by whoever to start frequenting underground grindcore shows, SCUM lesbian bars, and furry conventions. I believe one of the latter was held ajacent to San Jose 2013.

It was just a planning meeting for a furry con. 
There was a comic book con also adjacent.
Fun folks.

[crumbs]

Huh?  Care to discuss the methodology?  I'm all ears!

So, I'll get you started on this:
"Capitalism is the cause of slavery because when people practice capitalism they _______________________, which leads to slavery.

As soon as you finish:
"Smoking causes cancer because __________, _________

Ok. Smoking causes cancer, because cigarette smoke includes the following chemicals: Tar, Arsenic, Benzene, Cadmium, Formaldehyde, Polonium-210, Chromium, 1,3-Butadiene, Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, Nitrosamines, Acrolein, and a few others. The list is rather long. These chemicals, when exposed to living tissue, interact with the chemical components of our cell DNA, as well as interfere with the chemical processes that our cells use to divide. As a result, they can interfere with cell division, and cause cells to divide with imperfect DNA. This DNA fluke most often results in a cell that either can not survive and dies, or a cell that is not recognized as a part of your body, in which case it is attacked by your body's immune system and is killed. Sometimes, the DNA fluke is minor enough not to be noticed by your immune system, or changes the biology of a cell in a way that makes it divide and reproduce in such a way that your immune system cant keep up with killing these bad cells. As a result, you either get a benign tumor, or full blown malignant cancer.

That's an interesting theory -- any facts to back it up?   You take the shotgun approach -- listing a bunch of chemicals that may be carcinogenic in certain scenarios at certain doses, a whole bunch of "can" "may" "most often" to offer a range of *possibilities*.  Not good enough. If it was, we could do away with all that nasty animal testing & tedious statistical studies & save a whole bunch of time & money.  Cutting to the chase, at some point you have to get down to empiricism, and there *you'll have to rely on correlation to establish causation*.  If that's not clear, i may be trying to be too terse.  Don't assume this is gibberish or a troll (at least in this instance) -- i'll try to make things clearer.

Ok, now it's your turn!  
Capitalism causes slavery because _______________________  

Not yet.

I absolutely agree.  That's why armed mugging is so popular  I point a gun at your face & offer you a profitable trade:  Your life for your wallet.  After a quick negotiation, you conclude that it's in your enlightened self interest to part with your wallet & not your brains.  Another deal done

Which is why the richest men in the world have made their wealth by armed mugging. Or, which is why armed muggers are the richest people in the world   I seriously can not face-palm hard enough at this. I mean, if you really believe this, why not go out, invest in a gun, and become a multi-millionaire yourself?

Never said anything about richest men, never said muggers were rich.

But you DID. When told that peaceful trade wins over violent trade, you for some reason brought up mugging as an example of trade. To which I pointed out that it's a stupid idea, since muggers aren't rich. Except you deleted that post, so... whatever. Looking forward to hearing how capitalism causes slavery.

Wait.  No no no.   I don't do that.  I'm actually neurotic about leaving an edit trail, tagging or referencing all my edits in footnotes (if posts have footnotes).  If a post of mine has vanished, MoonShadow has a global mod tag, i authorise him to do whatever. Yanking posts is not my thing.

Maybe i'm not clear enough.  To prove "All men are mortal" to be false, all i have to do is offer a single instance where it fails -- present a single instance of a man who is immortal.  Agree?  All i did was show that instance. 

Was choosing not to trade an option? No? Then I guess it wasn't really "voluntary," was it. Think these things through before posting something you think is clever.

Of course it was.  You were free to choose not to trade & find out the mugger's response.  Just like a woman can choose not to work for a pittance & watch her kids starve to death.  Freedom is a wonderful thing, it's delicious you must have some.

Ahahahaha, nice! I've heard this concept used many times in the form of "States only give you an illusion of choice, while holding you under a gun." Cute for you to bring it up specifically in the exact same way.
See, problem is, the mugger asked you to trade for either your money or your life. The mugger didn't say "I have something, you have money, or life. I'll trade you my thing for your money or your life" and either give you something in return, or allow you to say "no thanks" to trade. It's a nice slight of hand, but it's not trade, nor is it voluntary.
As for your woman example, she can chose to work for something more than a pittance. Or she can chose a better place for her kids, since she's obviously not financially capable of raising them. No one is holding a gun to her or her kids, forcing her to only pick the option of working for a pittance.

The point i'm trying to make is most trades in a capitalist society are very much like the mugger trade.  The woman, for instance, is not free to work for more than a pittance -- sometimes the only jobs on offer are the pittance jobs, and if there's more applicants than jobs, and minimal wage (regulation) doesn't kick in, what you have is an inverse auction -- the employer can, and should, lower the offered wage until the surplus workers give up & leave.
She can choose a better place for her kids?  It's an interesting idea, though you'll probably run into some friction with women on that one.  Most women simply don't accept that as an option -- must be some hormonal shit.  In other words, yes, someone *is* holding a gun to her head, or, rather, he may as well be.  There's where the notion of property as violence comes in (Proudhon?).
P.S.  Sorry for the late reply.

[crumbs]

Oh, come on, you can facepalm harder than that!  Try again!  You doing it?  Harder!  Pay attention:  Never said anything about richest men, never said muggers were rich, and i think you can facepalm harder if you tried.  If you don't understand something in the future, don't assume that it's nonsense -- know that you're simply not smart enough to understand it yet.  Oh, and protip:  You can stop facepalming now.

Careful. If you troll too hard for too long, you might get eventually banned. As much as I would just love to see that happen, I'm not sure I could do this epic chess battle on my own. Although I still haven't seen the whole process in action, it seems to go something like this: Libertarian mods try to have minimalist rules. Players play by "the rules". The mods try not to get annoyed. They eventually get annoyed and the rule-breakers get banned. Clear as miso soup?

Most people seem to struggle with the whole cancer correlation vs causation thing, even on this forum. Maybe having prolonged Libertarian/An-Cap/other anti-government views actually causes cognitive decline?

I doubt 'm trolling, i don't think i am.  Sparring maybe?  If i enjoy it, perhaps others do too?  And i try not to escalate cattiness unless the other side goes there first
So maybe i'm safe...
Edit:  Step away for 20mins and look at all the posts

[crumbs]

It's at least as likely that exposure to libertarian thought causes significant cognative dissonance in those who don't understand the philosophy, including yourself.  Sometimes I actually try to soften the blow for some of you guys, because I feel sorry for you; it must hurt sometimes.  Other times I don't feel any such pity, because stupidity should hurt somewhat.

You don't see yourself as The Punisher, do you? (kindergarten rules still apply:  Be nice if you want others to be)

[ktttn]

The irony of that statement is that, yes, I've given you much of my time and consideration. Case in point, you're not banned, yet.  You walked into our house and took a grand shit on our kitchen table, and I've let you continue to do so.  As Rassah has pointed out, I literally have to suffer fools as a mod on this forum; but there is only so much I'll take.  And you in particular, have leveled slander against me that you show no inclination towards either supporting or correcting.  If you've read your PM's today, you know that you have a time limit, and the clock is ticking.  So you need to choose; either prove your claims, withdraw your claims, or you can go completely bonkers until I pull the pin.  And no, I have not deleted any of my own posts, so whatever you think you saw is still there.  If you feel you've been unfairly treated, I'm sure Theymos would just love to hear your gripes.  

Go ahead.  Don't forget, you're here of your own free will.  So you must get something out of all this.

I'm certainly more entertaining than some trolls you are forced to suffer.
I recognize my powerlessness and lack of influence. This applies in other spheres as well.
If you drop the modhammer, one less shrieky little whateveriam. No recourse for me. Game over.
If I prove to my, or anyone's but your satisfaction that you're a [redacted] whatever, I still lose.
We've shown our cards, and you win regardless. I got no dog in this fight.
I'm also imagining I'll wind up in gitmo one day irl, ready to hungerstrike.

And so, with full knowledge that I am and have always been at your mercy, I'm hereby publishing an apology for any slander that could have been interpreted from any of my posts. I am willing to edit my post according to any moderator's guidelines.

[MoonShadow]

The irony of that statement is that, yes, I've given you much of my time and consideration. Case in point, you're not banned, yet.  You walked into our house and took a grand shit on our kitchen table, and I've let you continue to do so.  As Rassah has pointed out, I literally have to suffer fools as a mod on this forum; but there is only so much I'll take.  And you in particular, have leveled slander against me that you show no inclination towards either supporting or correcting.  If you've read your PM's today, you know that you have a time limit, and the clock is ticking.  So you need to choose; either prove your claims, withdraw your claims, or you can go completely bonkers until I pull the pin.  And no, I have not deleted any of my own posts, so whatever you think you saw is still there.  If you feel you've been unfairly treated, I'm sure Theymos would just love to hear your gripes.  

Go ahead.  Don't forget, you're here of your own free will.  So you must get something out of all this.

I'm certainly more entertaining than some trolls you are forced to suffer.

More entertaining than many, not as entertaining as some.  I've noted to others in the past, the skill of the troller in entertaining me is one of the reasons that some people get away with it.  I'm not shy about admitting I'm biased in favor of clever trolling.

I recognize my powerlessness and lack of influence. This applies in other spheres as well.
If you drop the modhammer, one less shrieky little whateveriam. No recourse for me. Game over.
If I prove to my, or anyone's but your satisfaction that you're a [redacted] whatever, I still lose.
We've shown our cards, and you win regardless. I got no dog in this fight.
I'm also imagining I'll wind up in gitmo one day irl, ready to hungerstrike.

And so, with full knowledge that I am and have always been at your mercy, I'm hereby publishing an apology for any slander that could have been interpreted from any of my posts. I am willing to edit my post according to any moderator's guidelines.

Thank you, apology accepted.

[MoonShadow]

It's at least as likely that exposure to libertarian thought causes significant cognative dissonance in those who don't understand the philosophy, including yourself.  Sometimes I actually try to soften the blow for some of you guys, because I feel sorry for you; it must hurt sometimes.  Other times I don't feel any such pity, because stupidity should hurt somewhat.

You don't see yourself as The Punisher, do you? (kindergarten rules still apply:  Be nice if you want others to be)

The Punisher?  No.  I've literally never banned anyone on this forum, at least not personally.  It's never come to that for me.  The problem that I have is that the only tool I have is a nuke-ban, which is such an over the top action that it seems entirely disproportionate to the kinds of offenses that I generally see.  If I had a more intermediate action that I could take, such as a term limited posting ban, I'd use that I expect; but AFAIK only Theymos has such fine control of punishments.  I have, however, pulled Theymos into conflicts wherein I felt that a response was required, but a full nuke-ban was overkill.  He really doesn't like playing judge, though, and I can't say as I blame him.

[crumbs]

Don't you have some evidence of my bad behavior to gather up?  The clock is ticking.

  you know i love this stuff!  Tell EVERYTHING!1!!

[MoonShadow]

Don't you have some evidence of my bad behavior to gather up?  The clock is ticking.

  you know i love this stuff!  Tell EVERYTHING!1!!

The clock is no longer ticking.

[crumbs]

It's at least as likely that exposure to libertarian thought causes significant cognative dissonance in those who don't understand the philosophy, including yourself.  Sometimes I actually try to soften the blow for some of you guys, because I feel sorry for you; it must hurt sometimes.  Other times I don't feel any such pity, because stupidity should hurt somewhat.

You don't see yourself as The Punisher, do you? (kindergarten rules still apply:  Be nice if you want others to be)

The Punisher?  No.  I've literally never banned anyone on this forum, at least not personally.  It's never come to that for me.  The problem that I have is that the only tool I have is a nuke-ban, which is such an over the top action that it seems entirely disproportionate to the kinds of offenses that I generally see.  If I had a more intermediate action that I could take, such as a term limited posting ban, I'd use that I expect; but AFAIK only Theymos has such fine control of punishments.  I have, however, pulled Theymos into conflicts wherein I felt that a response was required, but a full nuke-ban was overkill.  He really doesn't like playing judge, though, and I can't say as I blame him.

I don't either.  One thing i never understood about net culture is all the people wanting to be mods, chan ops, wikipeedocrats.  That "are mods getting paid" thread made me think the opposite:  you mean people would do it for free?!
Edit: You didn't kill any of my posts for some reason?  Would be the first time, and i really doubted, but read Rassah comment (boldface in post)https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210802.msg2535496#msg2535496
not urgent, just odd.

[MoonShadow]

It's at least as likely that exposure to libertarian thought causes significant cognative dissonance in those who don't understand the philosophy, including yourself.  Sometimes I actually try to soften the blow for some of you guys, because I feel sorry for you; it must hurt sometimes.  Other times I don't feel any such pity, because stupidity should hurt somewhat.

You don't see yourself as The Punisher, do you? (kindergarten rules still apply:  Be nice if you want others to be)

The Punisher?  No.  I've literally never banned anyone on this forum, at least not personally.  It's never come to that for me.  The problem that I have is that the only tool I have is a nuke-ban, which is such an over the top action that it seems entirely disproportionate to the kinds of offenses that I generally see.  If I had a more intermediate action that I could take, such as a term limited posting ban, I'd use that I expect; but AFAIK only Theymos has such fine control of punishments.  I have, however, pulled Theymos into conflicts wherein I felt that a response was required, but a full nuke-ban was overkill.  He really doesn't like playing judge, though, and I can't say as I blame him.

I don't either.  One thing i never understood about net culture is all the people wanting to be mods, chan ops, wikipeedocrats.  That "are mods getting paid" thread made me think the opposite:  you mean people would do it for free?!

Heh.  Well that 'paid mods' thing is fairly recent, and is based upon some kind of participation algo, so it can't be argued as a method of favortism.  People get funny when money is involved, even at the very small amounts we are talking about here.  I've been a mod here for a couple years, never really thought about getting paid for it.

[MoonShadow]

Edit: You didn't kill any of my posts for some reason?  Would be the first time, and i really doubted, but read Rassah comment (boldface in post)https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210802.msg2535496#msg2535496
not urgent, just odd.

Actually, I did kill one post in this thread earlier today, and it might have been yours.  Can't remember for certain.  So let's say I did it.

[crumbs]

Edit: You didn't kill any of my posts for some reason?  Would be the first time, and i really doubted, but read Rassah comment (boldface in post)https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210802.msg2535496#msg2535496
not urgent, just odd.

Actually, I did kill one post in this thread earlier today, and it might have been yours.  Can't remember for certain.  So let's say I did it.

Well, thanks for copping to it.  Don't care myself, but i do try to make it obvious when i edit.
/done.  thanks.

[ktttn]

The irony of that statement is that, yes, I've given you much of my time and consideration. Case in point, you're not banned, yet.  You walked into our house and took a grand shit on our kitchen table, and I've let you continue to do so.  As Rassah has pointed out, I literally have to suffer fools as a mod on this forum; but there is only so much I'll take.  And you in particular, have leveled slander against me that you show no inclination towards either supporting or correcting.  If you've read your PM's today, you know that you have a time limit, and the clock is ticking.  So you need to choose; either prove your claims, withdraw your claims, or you can go completely bonkers until I pull the pin.  And no, I have not deleted any of my own posts, so whatever you think you saw is still there.  If you feel you've been unfairly treated, I'm sure Theymos would just love to hear your gripes.  

Go ahead.  Don't forget, you're here of your own free will.  So you must get something out of all this.

I'm certainly more entertaining than some trolls you are forced to suffer.

More entertaining than many, not as entertaining as some.  I've noted to others in the past, the skill of the troller in entertaining me is one of the reasons that some people get away with it.  I'm not shy about admitting I'm biased in favor of clever trolling.

I recognize my powerlessness and lack of influence. This applies in other spheres as well.
If you drop the modhammer, one less shrieky little whateveriam. No recourse for me. Game over.
If I prove to my, or anyone's but your satisfaction that you're a [redacted] whatever, I still lose.
We've shown our cards, and you win regardless. I got no dog in this fight.
I'm also imagining I'll wind up in gitmo one day irl, ready to hungerstrike.

And so, with full knowledge that I am and have always been at your mercy, I'm hereby publishing an apology for any slander that could have been interpreted from any of my posts. I am willing to edit my post according to any moderator's guidelines.

Thank you, apology accepted.

I'm sorta banning myself irl now though. My plan is to walk out of this door with everything I own and keep walking or whatever until I get to Montana, using only free wifi, Bitcoins and a few free starbucks bags.
I'm in the middle of Texas.
I'll make a new thread.

[MoonShadow]

I'm sorta banning myself irl now though. My plan is to walk out of this door with everything I own and keep walking or whatever until I get to Montana, using only free wifi, Bitcoins and a few free starbucks bags.
I'm in the middle of Texas.
I'll make a new thread.

More curious.  What's in Montana?

[ktttn]

I'm sorta banning myself irl now though. My plan is to walk out of this door with everything I own and keep walking or whatever until I get to Montana, using only free wifi, Bitcoins and a few free starbucks bags.
I'm in the middle of Texas.
I'll make a new thread.

More curious.  What's in Montana?

Well- mini nervous breakdowns sure are fun.
I got four miles north  when the folks I've been staying with showed up and were like "whatcha doin?"
And I was like *foam at the mouth* I HAEV A PLAN!

So forget anything I've said thusfar. Simply the delusional rantings of a deranged hippie.

The Rainbow Gathering is in Montana.
Relocking the thread now. Might start a fresh Capitalism thread in Politics and Society.