What gives a person exclusive ownership over a BTC?

[reed07]

Let me clarify that I understand how the asymmetric key signing process works. I am looking from a legal standpoint--how can you assign ownership of a BTC address to a person?

When I obtain a debit card, I have exclusive ownership over the use of the debit card address and the funds of that address because the bank (a centralized authority where the money is held) agrees that I (a person) own them. With BTC though, people randomly generate a private key to use and the person's identity is not attributed to that address in any explicit manner.
How can there be ownership in a system where there is anonymity? For instance, if no bank accounts had names attributed to them and people simply made transactions based on whether or not they had a pass-phrase or key to a certain account then how can someone claim that another person, for example, steals from them?

This question came to mind when thinking about people generating private keys based on phrases like brainwallet.org does. If someone generates a private key with a phrase that happens to already be in use (and has a positive balance) then how is it stealing for the newcomer to move those BTC to a secure address?

Is ownership over an address justified in a homesteading kind of manner in where the first person to use the address is the owner of that address? For some reason that seems unsatisfactory to me.

[alani123]

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.

[pontiacg5]

This is why you don't use a weak brainwallet. There are people out there constantly scanning the blockchain for weak "passwords"

This is also why address generation is important, and I believe the random number generator of an android app caused lots of people to loose money too. You've got to be careful, and attentive, should anything come up.

People steal credit card numbers from all sorts of places and make counterfeit copies that let them spend like they "owned" it. It happens all the time, and it costs a load of money spread out across everyone.

Nothing is perfect, unfortunately...

[reed07]

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

[EcuaMobi]

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

Of course he's a thief. But nobody is responsible to refund the victim.
(Except the thief, but it'd be almost impossible to track him).

[reed07]

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

Of course he's a thief. But nobody is responsible to refund the victim.
(Except the thief, but it'd be almost impossible to track him).

But what gives the first person the exclusive right to use that address?

[Kouye]

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

I agree with that.
It's equivalent to a guy dedicating his time wandering in parks, hoping to find a lost wallet.
This is a legit, yet very unefficient way to "make" money.
Still much more efficient than trying to find out funded btc private keys, though.

[niothor]

Let me clarify that I understand how the asymmetric key signing process works. I am looking from a legal standpoint--how can you assign ownership of a BTC address to a person?

When I obtain a debit card, I have exclusive ownership over the use of the debit card address and the funds of that address because the bank (a centralized authority where the money is held) agrees that I (a person) own them. With BTC though, people randomly generate a private key to use and the person's identity is not attributed to that address in any explicit manner.
How can there be ownership in a system where there is anonymity? For instance, if no bank accounts had names attributed to them and people simply made transactions based on whether or not they had a pass-phrase or key to a certain account then how can someone claim that another person, for example, steals from them?

This question came to mind when thinking about people generating private keys based on phrases like brainwallet.org does. If someone generates a private key with a phrase that happens to already be in use (and has a positive balance) then how is it stealing for the newcomer to move those BTC to a secure address?

Is ownership over an address justified in a homesteading kind of manner in where the first person to use the address is the owner of that address? For some reason that seems unsatisfactory to me.

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

[reed07]

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

[niothor]

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

Is there a central authority who deemed me the owner of my cat? But stealing it from me is still theft .
Anyhow , there are so many threads here with this subject , don't start another flame war. Use the search function.

And the rule around here is > DON'T USE A BRAIN WALLET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sonny]

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

Is there a central authority who deemed me the owner of my cat? But stealing it from me is still theft .
Anyhow , there are so many threads here with this subject , don't start another flame war. Use the search function.

And the rule around here is > DON'T USE A BRAIN WALLET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Off topic question, what about using sha(password) for the brain wallet?
Or maybe hashing the password multiple times?

[niothor]

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

Is there a central authority who deemed me the owner of my cat? But stealing it from me is still theft .
Anyhow , there are so many threads here with this subject , don't start another flame war. Use the search function.

And the rule around here is > DON'T USE A BRAIN WALLET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Off topic question, what about using sha(password) for the brain wallet?
Or maybe hashing the password multiple times?

Lols :

Step 0b. Now take that passphrase and sha512 it 100 times!

Entire thread here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=342691.0

[alani123]

Off topic question, what about using sha(password) for the brain wallet?
Or maybe hashing the password multiple times?

I usualy keep important passwords writen down somewhere I think no one would look for when searching for a password. Other times I just store them encrypted with a "brain" passworn in my pc. Getting too obsesed can lead to bigger losses at times. You know what happens if you lose that password.  

[whtchocla7e]

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?

[pontiacg5]

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?

You are being dense. Whoever owns the private key owns the bitcoins, there can be multiple owners, whoever first redeems the private key is the one who "owns" the bitcoins, as backed by mathematics.

Loosing control of a key is not the same as no ownership  

[whtchocla7e]

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?

You are being dense. Whoever owns the private key owns the bitcoins, there can be multiple owners, whoever first redeems the private key is the one who "owns" the bitcoins, as backed by mathematics.

Loosing control of a key is not the same as no ownership  

Nobody owns the private key, that's the point.
If I happen to generate a private key that allows me to control some bitcoins then well..... I control some bitcoins, fair and square.

[empoweoqwj]

A bitcoin has no legal owner. Simple as that I'm afraid. He who controls the private key controls the "coin"

[rhino34567]

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?

You are being dense. Whoever owns the private key owns the bitcoins, there can be multiple owners, whoever first redeems the private key is the one who "owns" the bitcoins, as backed by mathematics.

Loosing control of a key is not the same as no ownership  

Nobody owns the private key, that's the point.
If I happen to generate a private key that allows me to control some bitcoins then well..... I control some bitcoins, fair and square.

It would be morally wrong, though, the way I see it. But yeah, there really is now such thing as "owning" a bitcoin.

[virtualfaqs]

It's like redemption codes.

You can sell the codes to another person. Now the 2nd person sells the code to the 3rd person. What happens if the first person redeems the code. Uh-oh. And there's no proof who redeemed it.

[empoweoqwj]

And bitcoin legal status varies according to what country to you are in. It could be banned, a currency, a "voucher" etc