Bitcoin Forum
December 11, 2017, 09:45:43 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: What gives a person exclusive ownership over a BTC?  (Read 1077 times)
reed07
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 11


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:23:19 AM
 #1

Let me clarify that I understand how the asymmetric key signing process works. I am looking from a legal standpoint--how can you assign ownership of a BTC address to a person?

When I obtain a debit card, I have exclusive ownership over the use of the debit card address and the funds of that address because the bank (a centralized authority where the money is held) agrees that I (a person) own them. With BTC though, people randomly generate a private key to use and the person's identity is not attributed to that address in any explicit manner.
How can there be ownership in a system where there is anonymity? For instance, if no bank accounts had names attributed to them and people simply made transactions based on whether or not they had a pass-phrase or key to a certain account then how can someone claim that another person, for example, steals from them?

This question came to mind when thinking about people generating private keys based on phrases like brainwallet.org does. If someone generates a private key with a phrase that happens to already be in use (and has a positive balance) then how is it stealing for the newcomer to move those BTC to a secure address?

Is ownership over an address justified in a homesteading kind of manner in where the first person to use the address is the owner of that address? For some reason that seems unsatisfactory to me.

Sharecoin: SQ15mLpZSU12oAHsNYe9bfYiNGJAverGf8
1513028743
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513028743

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513028743
Reply with quote  #2

1513028743
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
alani123
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Professional googler


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:28:05 AM
 #2

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.














 

 

█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
BitBlender 

 













 















 












 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
pontiacg5
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364



View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:29:20 AM
 #3

This is why you don't use a weak brainwallet. There are people out there constantly scanning the blockchain for weak "passwords"

This is also why address generation is important, and I believe the random number generator of an android app caused lots of people to loose money too. You've got to be careful, and attentive, should anything come up.

People steal credit card numbers from all sorts of places and make counterfeit copies that let them spend like they "owned" it. It happens all the time, and it costs a load of money spread out across everyone.

Nothing is perfect, unfortunately...

Please DO NOT send me private messages asking for help setting up GPU miners. I will not respond!!!
reed07
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 11


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:31:57 AM
 #4

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

Sharecoin: SQ15mLpZSU12oAHsNYe9bfYiNGJAverGf8
EcuaMobi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
January 29, 2014, 12:35:21 AM
 #5

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

Of course he's a thief. But nobody is responsible to refund the victim.
(Except the thief, but it'd be almost impossible to track him).



reed07
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 11


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:38:43 AM
 #6

If you leave a bag with cash out in the wild it's your faut that is got stolen. No one is responsble to refound you. You can't proclaim a  dollar bill yours. Same applies for bitcoin.

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

Of course he's a thief. But nobody is responsible to refund the victim.
(Except the thief, but it'd be almost impossible to track him).

But what gives the first person the exclusive right to use that address?

Sharecoin: SQ15mLpZSU12oAHsNYe9bfYiNGJAverGf8
Kouye
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336


Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:42:33 AM
 #7

So you are claiming that people who dictionary attack brainwallets are not morally or legally responsible (i.e. they aren't stealing)?

I agree with that.
It's equivalent to a guy dedicating his time wandering in parks, hoping to find a lost wallet.
This is a legit, yet very unefficient way to "make" money.
Still much more efficient than trying to find out funded btc private keys, though.

[OVER] RIDDLES 2nd edition --- this was claimed. Look out for 3rd edition!
I won't ever ask for a loan nor offer any escrow service. If I do, please consider my account as hacked.
niothor
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546


Niothor


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2014, 12:44:18 AM
 #8

Let me clarify that I understand how the asymmetric key signing process works. I am looking from a legal standpoint--how can you assign ownership of a BTC address to a person?

When I obtain a debit card, I have exclusive ownership over the use of the debit card address and the funds of that address because the bank (a centralized authority where the money is held) agrees that I (a person) own them. With BTC though, people randomly generate a private key to use and the person's identity is not attributed to that address in any explicit manner.
How can there be ownership in a system where there is anonymity? For instance, if no bank accounts had names attributed to them and people simply made transactions based on whether or not they had a pass-phrase or key to a certain account then how can someone claim that another person, for example, steals from them?

This question came to mind when thinking about people generating private keys based on phrases like brainwallet.org does. If someone generates a private key with a phrase that happens to already be in use (and has a positive balance) then how is it stealing for the newcomer to move those BTC to a secure address?

Is ownership over an address justified in a homesteading kind of manner in where the first person to use the address is the owner of that address? For some reason that seems unsatisfactory to me.

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

reed07
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 11


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:46:37 AM
 #9

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

Sharecoin: SQ15mLpZSU12oAHsNYe9bfYiNGJAverGf8
niothor
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546


Niothor


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2014, 12:52:27 AM
 #10

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

Is there a central authority who deemed me the owner of my cat? But stealing it from me is still theft Wink.
Anyhow , there are so many threads here with this subject , don't start another flame war. Use the search function.

And the rule around here is > DON'T USE A BRAIN WALLET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sonny
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 868


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 12:57:50 AM
 #11

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

Is there a central authority who deemed me the owner of my cat? But stealing it from me is still theft Wink.
Anyhow , there are so many threads here with this subject , don't start another flame war. Use the search function.

And the rule around here is > DON'T USE A BRAIN WALLET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Off topic question, what about using sha(password) for the brain wallet?
Or maybe hashing the password multiple times?
niothor
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546


Niothor


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2014, 01:04:09 AM
 #12

Nope , everybody that knows your cc number and cv2 can use that card and buy a porn subscription.

But to do so would be theft because the centralized authority who facilitates the transactions has deemed me the owner of the account. No such authority gives people the same right over their BTC addresses.

Is there a central authority who deemed me the owner of my cat? But stealing it from me is still theft Wink.
Anyhow , there are so many threads here with this subject , don't start another flame war. Use the search function.

And the rule around here is > DON'T USE A BRAIN WALLET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Off topic question, what about using sha(password) for the brain wallet?
Or maybe hashing the password multiple times?

Lols :

Step 0b. Now take that passphrase and sha512 it 100 times!
Entire thread here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=342691.0

alani123
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


Professional googler


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 01:05:25 AM
 #13

Quote

Off topic question, what about using sha(password) for the brain wallet?
Or maybe hashing the password multiple times?


I usualy keep important passwords writen down somewhere I think no one would look for when searching for a password. Other times I just store them encrypted with a "brain" passworn in my pc. Getting too obsesed can lead to bigger losses at times. You know what happens if you lose that password.  Cool














 

 

█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
BitBlender 

 













 















 












 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
█ 
whtchocla7e
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 02:48:57 AM
 #14

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?
pontiacg5
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364



View Profile
January 29, 2014, 03:53:29 AM
 #15

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?

You are being dense. Whoever owns the private key owns the bitcoins, there can be multiple owners, whoever first redeems the private key is the one who "owns" the bitcoins, as backed by mathematics.

Loosing control of a key is not the same as no ownership  Roll Eyes


Please DO NOT send me private messages asking for help setting up GPU miners. I will not respond!!!
whtchocla7e
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 04:06:49 AM
 #16

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?

You are being dense. Whoever owns the private key owns the bitcoins, there can be multiple owners, whoever first redeems the private key is the one who "owns" the bitcoins, as backed by mathematics.

Loosing control of a key is not the same as no ownership  Roll Eyes



Nobody owns the private key, that's the point.
If I happen to generate a private key that allows me to control some bitcoins then well..... I control some bitcoins, fair and square.
empoweoqwj
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 04:52:01 AM
 #17

A bitcoin has no legal owner. Simple as that I'm afraid. He who controls the private key controls the "coin"
rhino34567
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 293


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 04:56:39 AM
 #18

I had a similar thread on here this week and my conclusion was that nobody owns Bitcoins and therefore Bitcoins cannot be stolen.
Whomever has access to Bitcoin storage and is able to move them can do so freely. All that is backed by mathematics. Great, ain't it?

You are being dense. Whoever owns the private key owns the bitcoins, there can be multiple owners, whoever first redeems the private key is the one who "owns" the bitcoins, as backed by mathematics.

Loosing control of a key is not the same as no ownership  Roll Eyes



Nobody owns the private key, that's the point.
If I happen to generate a private key that allows me to control some bitcoins then well..... I control some bitcoins, fair and square.
It would be morally wrong, though, the way I see it. But yeah, there really is now such thing as "owning" a bitcoin.

virtualfaqs
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700



View Profile WWW
January 29, 2014, 06:40:40 AM
 #19

It's like redemption codes.

You can sell the codes to another person. Now the 2nd person sells the code to the 3rd person. What happens if the first person redeems the code. Uh-oh. And there's no proof who redeemed it.

https://twitter.com/virtualfaqs
Looking for altcoin pump advice? Then follow me.
empoweoqwj
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518


View Profile
January 29, 2014, 08:44:38 AM
 #20

And bitcoin legal status varies according to what country to you are in. It could be banned, a currency, a "voucher" etc
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!