Full transparency on the forum? Why not?

[shield132]

Why not make a few things fully transparent here?

Post reporter

You see who reports what posts

Mod dealing with report

You see which mod deleted the post or marked it bad

~snip~

This can cause unwanted side effects: People who got reported may PM post reporters and ask why did they report them, wtf do they want, etc, this can turn into revenge. Nothing serious but not joyful at all.
And the second case, to see which mod deleted the post, can really be very bad for moderators because they may receive dozens of PMs from users about why did he/she remove the post. Mods are super busy and it will be impossible to answer all of these kinds of PMs, so PM spamming isn't something that we want.

Btw polls transparency is a good idea. We can see whether certain answers are consciously abused by newbies/alts or not.

[Harlot]

We would see a bunch of complaints in the meta section if this happens even in the reputation section, people who are reporting just because they think that the post is irrelevant to the topic might not report at all if they will answer queries daily about why they think that their post was invalid for that thread and now you will also bring up the mods and question how they judge things. Yeah it might be helpful for figuring things out why your post got deleted but I think it will be better just by reading the deleted post you have in your messages and going back to the thread where it was removed to see why they think it was irrelevant.

[KaneVWE]

Well the transparent option on the polls seems to have been seen as a sensible option.

Let's leave that one and move to the other areas of transparency mentioned.

Okay so

Moderator and reporter transparency.

As already mentioned simply because there are some negatives it doesn't mean the idea isn't optimal.
There could be many as yet not considered positives.

Okay the problems as I see it currently are

1. Not understanding why you post was deleted.

Resulting in
A/ repeating the mistake
B/ feeling it was unfair or a biased delete.
C/ creating threads asking why or accusing mods of bias
D/ posting less or leaving the forum.


2. Not understanding why your report was marked bad

Resulting in
A/ repetitive reporting of those not meeting the threshold for deletion
B / feeling it was unfair or biased
C/ creating threads complaining of mod bias
D/ never reporting any other posts.


So it doesn't really matter if you say.

1/ I would just accept my post deleted and not care
2/ i wouldn't care if i thought i was the victim of mod bias
3/ I would keep reporting regardless.


Those problems can be mitigated and the forum improved.

If full transparency was too much. You could get a report at least saying.

You've had

25 posts deleted , reported by 4 members , deleted by 1 mod.

The reason could simply copy in the reason given by the reporter or one from a drop down list the mod selects from.

I mean the reporter and mod could have an option to report and mark transparently.

Moderation has improved but really the mod allowing anyone to spam every thread started by another member regarding legitimate proposals or debates and demand they halt or stop should be immediately fired.  It is completely ludicrous.
Same for allowing every member to tell lies or spread misinformation but delete the provable truth.
They should be fired at once. This is deliberate and willful enabling and facilitating the spread of false information.

The fact the mods hide away from public debate on this is very telling.
You can delete independently verifiable truths and allow complete bullshit to be promulgated unchallenged.
Crazy shit.

Then cry when people mention on other mediums the narrative here is carefully scripted and controlled in certain areas and regarding certain members. Let people say what they want so long as it is on topic and relevant. Let the reader check the evidence and verify and decide for themselves.  

I mean you have mods that permit certain members to make false accusations against other members, then when the accused conclusively refutes those accusations with independently verifiable evidence the mods delete it  
Scandalous. There is nothing you can do the mods simply hide away like cowards when you challenge it  
Weasels. Come out and debate if it is clear you're biased put the post back and apologize or get fired.

Mods are meant to be objective and impartial.
Some mods are good and do good work.
I suspect there are a couple of corrupt eggs working with a couple of vindictive reporters. Those stats based reports would soon demonstrate such patterns.

You could also introduce some things like .. after careful review are you happy with this action.

So if a certain mod is getting a lot of unhappy reports that could flag an issue. Even better if these type of options and features could be attached weight by merit score so unhappy shit posters are not really considered . Sadly since there is no requirement for giving merits and it is simply a meaningless metric that is not sensible currently. I mean if merits earned was even remotely correlated with the value of a post you could really leverage it to do a lot of amazing things that could really optimize the forum.

To be fair even if the trust system and merit system remained a joke but moderation was objective impartial and effective aka optimal it wouldn't make much difference to those that are not here for financial gain.

The warnings on top of peoples threads that falsely claim some members think you are a scammer or financially dangerous  ( when no member has any evidence you ever tried to scam,  set up a scam or showed any form of financially motivated wrong doing at all ever are always going to be clearly disgusting and defamatory)
But other than those if you were permitted to defend yourself and punish proven scammers when on topic and relevant without mod bias then the DT and merit are less important.  It is terrible when even at an admin level the truth is deliberately hidden from view.

I think transparency would go a long way to stop that even semi transparency.
Plus prevent repetitive mistakes or errors of judgement , unwarranted feelings of bias, and collusion between isolated pockets of corruption. Putting members off posting or reporting.

That's probably a lot to take in. So read a couple of times and think it over.
Try to consider this from a macro perspective. If you start thinking hmmm.. how could this help someone I thoroughly want to leave then you are not being objective and thinking how it could help the entire forum going forward.

Of course if you see problems or have other improvements to add then feel free to mention them.
What else you gonna do on meta board? Tell everyone how many meaningless merits you have or how others shouldn't post here for money only whilst wearing the highest paying gambling sig you could get? Or errrrr how you want to be able to give merits out, or how many merits  should be deleted from those that got them airdropped or random other merits based stats.

Come on treat yourselves to discussing and debating something new now and then.

The problem with meta board is clearly that most members frequenting meta board are the prime beneficiaries to the status quo so discussing changes that challenge the status quo or a move to systems that cant be gamed or level the playing field are immediately hated lol.

[hilariousetc]

If those are the problem, including the reason on PM when one's post is deleted is better solution.

But it's only practical if there's UI where moderator only need to click one fancy button such as ("Delete post [referral link]", "Delete post [off-topic]", etc.) and someone willing to make the implementation.

This would solve that but something tells me he still wouldn't be happy about it. It wouldn't be difficult to do. A drop down box with some of the most common reasons a post is deleted and an additional comment box for further elaboration if something is deleted for an uncommon reason has been requested and shouldn't be that difficult to do. Maybe it will be on the new forum. Hopefully it is as people do deserve to know what a post was removed for and it would remove a lot of confusion.

[suchmoon]

Maybe it will be on the new forum.

Just in case you were being serious: as far as I could figure out, epochtalk doesn't send PMs when a post is deleted, so even though it has moderation notes that mods can attach to reports - I don't think there is a way for users to see them. There is no drop down with common reasons.

There is no report history for the reporters so they can't see anything either.

[KaneVWE]

Okay the problems as I see it currently are

1. Not understanding why you post was deleted.

Resulting in
A/ repeating the mistake
B/ feeling it was unfair or a biased delete.
C/ creating threads asking why or accusing mods of bias


2. Not understanding why your report was marked bad

Resulting in
A/ repetitive reporting of those not meeting the threshold for deletion
B / feeling it was unfair or biased
C/ creating threads complaining of mod bias
D/ never reporting any other posts.

If those are the problem, including the reason on PM when one's post is deleted is better solution.

But it's only practical if there's UI where moderator only need to click one fancy button such as ("Delete post [referral link]", "Delete post [off-topic]", etc.) and someone willing to make the implementation.

This is very true. Also the stats I mentioned could very easily be attached to the delete email.
So you would have the reason and the stats giving semi transparency. That would be a great step forward.
You could also have an I'm happy button and an appeal button.

You could be allowed 1 appeal per year renewed upon successful overturn.

This could be a feature for member or above.
Like I say if merit was remotely credible you could really leverage it to cut back on mod work.

You will always need an ultimate arbiter but the cost for taking it that far should be considerable like a 1 month ban or 1 month pay cut for the mod.

It is simple if you are presenting on topic relevant independently verifiable truths they must NEVER be deleted.
The very notion of doing so is scandalous if you want to claim free speech exists.

Yes, irrelevant, spurious and lacking strong corroboration,  mindless groundless abuse and posting conclusively debunked information as true should be deleted how hard can it be?

I mean, yes being a mod must be pretty tough at times. This long term would help mods.


1. You will not get repeat offenders due to lack of understanding
2. You will not get lots of vindictive reports made for personal gripes
3. You will not have to be 100% sure if you have 100% grasped the purpose of the thread and if the post is totally unrelated aka offtopic, because the poster will explain how it was relevant in the appeal if you were not sure and got it wrong.
4. You wouldn't be tempted to punish those you personally thought were ass holes via mod bias
5. People couldn't accuse you of bias or much reduced since you would reach sensible consensus.
6. Perhaps even during appeals process a chance to make small edits.

1 per year for members or above isn't that much to pay.

It is unknown the number of members that either leave the forum or all other possible negatives sparked by even genuine misunderstandings between mods and posters.

I think member would be the sensible threshold to prevent malicious abuse of appeals.
The punishment for deliberate mod abuse should be considerable if it is undeniable.
You want a fair and open forum where the truth is permitted or you don't.

[jademaxsuy]

<snip>

Well laid OP,

In the case of transparency I can think of a disaster if this will be applied for it will create hatred among othee users being reported and doing the report.

However, transparency will do better in other cases lor side of this forum like the creation of the projects for the investors to know the real people behind running the project and to avoid getting scam.

In other replies of yours regarding on scam issues with other members of the forum then only thing I can say is to keep it up. I myself is always fun of reading your posts but I am not agaisnt to someone here in the forum. I just wanted also for you to clear yourself or whatsoever misunderstanding that went through either in your side or the other party.

[GeorgeJohn]

Why are you asking the same questions and expecting different results? It would be a nightmare if things like this were public. In real life do you get to see who everyone voted for or who grassed you up to the police? Of course not. There's a reason why you need some privacy and it should be up to the individual if they want to share that info with you. People would be worried to report posts if it was public and the same goes for mods handling them. If a post is against the rules it should be reported and people shouldn't have to fear reprisals for doing so. If it's against the rules then a mod will handle it; if not, it will either be marked as bad or left alone. If you feel like your posts are being targeted either by users of staff then state your case in Meta and they will be looked into.

Yeah really I like the method of these response because not every question the answer is been exposed because some certain answer to a question needs to be confidential like election conducted by electoral body, no one review it unless it's been pronounced, that's reason you can't know who is against or with you.

[KaneVWE]

Thanks to those that are making a sensible effort to debate the suggestions in the OP.
There is a tiny bit of transparency at the moment but its kind of not useful.

For example the mod deleting my on topic and relevant posts is doing it at around the same time each session they decide to exercise their terrible judgement or intentional bias.

For example the deletes happen in very quick succession around this time or an hour or so earlier.
I very much suspect it is the same mod.

I also now suspect the mod is stalking my posts in real time? Why you say?

Well, I've just had a post that I made deleted instantly !!! It was not even on a thread this account has posted on before to my memory.

I mean I pressed post and I would estimate 30s to max couple of mins after that it was deleted
I thought did I somehow press delete or not even post it or wtf happened.
I then see the PM That a mod had deleted it?

I mean that means it was not reported at all. A mod was following me around ( because a mod has just finished deleting my own post from my own self moderated thread??) And one other one that was on topic and relevant?

This is why you need transparency. You would know when mods are stalking you.

There is no point saying well that post must have been so clearly off topic that some AI auto deleted it or was auto flagged or whatever.

1. If I post it and place it in the full context of the discussion all of which is still there and continuing unfettered
Not one person would be able to demonstrate it was off topic and irrelevant.  I was strangely agreeing with their points also??
2. There is no AI here contrary to popular belief.

Certain things you are not permitted to criticise or point out the truth.
If you don't believe me check the logs the post and delete was immediate.

The stats I mentioned and appeals process is fundamental to free speech here.
Either the post is off topic and irrelevant and gets deleted along with the other off topic irrelevant posts or it is not.
You can't have double standards.  That is a form of lying and deception.

A guarantee and safe guarding of free speech to me along with all the other benefits mentioned trumps the potential negatives of the stats + reason + possible appeal.

I mean obviously none of it will happen along with all the other indisputable improvements I've seen suggested over the past year or 2. Still it's fun to debate them.

I mean the forum is for fun too right?
Once you have defeated every claim made against you, proven everything you have claimed was true about others, proven you are being unfairly censored and not one mod or admin will stand against you and defend their actions. What else is left?
Just casually debating how to improve things for the future.
Is that pointless at this stage? and do suggestions from very unpopular members ensure they would never be implemented even if provably useful.
?  Who can say.

Strange now though I find DT members making 180 degree turns and agreeing with CH.  So now you get deleted for agreeing with DT members where as CH was deleted for disagreeing with them on the same points. Lol
In time every single thing he said will be proven to be indisputably true.

[KaneVWE]

Here is yet another clearly bias delete.

1. It is on my own self moderated reee thread. ( only created due to bias moderation that is removing any truthful negative evidence from the goodbye world lauda leaving thread )

2. On the original thread nullius is telling more lies and disparaging any other members that mention the truth about lauda, claiming that they are the only people being negative aside from trolls.

3. So on my own reeeee: thread where I am presenting the truth I again furnish the reader with the truth that nullius is once more controlling the narrative and misrepresenting the reality of the situation and a mod deletes my own post from my own self moderated reee thread.

This is scandalous.

You can not present the truth on your own self moderated Ree thread that you only had to start because the ontopic and relevant truth was banned from the original thread?

This kind of truth censorship is grotesque.