A peculiar Response to the Ontario Superior Court of Justice

[avikz]

I loved the statement which says - when Canadian dollar becomes worthless, we will be here to serve you, too!

However, I fear that this statement may not go well with the court. The meaning of this statement can be easily manipulated in the court of law. I am not sure the country of operation of this wallet service provider, but if they are operating from Canada, they may face the wrath of the government just for this statement.

But the court will surely note this statement to prove that the government doesn't have any power over the bitcoins owned by an individual even if he/she is a criminal in the eye of law. May create more trouble for bitcoin and its users in Canada where a banking ban is already imposed against bitcoin.

[pooya87]

I am not aware of the US sanctioning any bitcoin addresses. Do you have a link to this happening?

Bro you've missed one of the biggest jokes of our time if you've missed this
Here is a link to U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY containing a bunch of bitcoin (and some altcoin) addresses that are under US "sanctions": https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/recent-actions/20211108
It gets even funnier if you check some of these addresses that are either empty or had a tiny amount of bitcoin in them.

[franky1]

I loved the statement which says - when Canadian dollar becomes worthless, we will be here to serve you, too!

However, I fear that this statement may not go well with the court. The meaning of this statement can be easily manipulated in the court of law. I am not sure the country of operation of this wallet service provider, but if they are operating from Canada, they may face the wrath of the government just for this statement.

But the court will surely note this statement to prove that the government doesn't have any power over the bitcoins owned by an individual even if he/she is a criminal in the eye of law. May create more trouble for bitcoin and its users in Canada where a banking ban is already imposed against bitcoin.

nunchuk is not one of the mareva group under investigations for suspected links to criminal activity..
nunchuk is a 'witness' to the suspects. the court just wants a witness statement about any/ALL records the witness has related to what it knows about the suspects. the court is not even asking for Nunchuk(witness) to be sat down under oath to be questioned.
nunchuk cant get in trouble if the coins move. but he can get in trouble if found that he does have information that he refused to give about the suspects

the judge(not a member of parliament thus not 'government') is not using some federal/government law as power. he is actually using common law. and the private individual(coffee shop owner not 'government') is using that common law power the judge has

Bitcoin (network/protocol) is censorship impossible, anonymous.
bitcoin (btc/ allotment of coins) is not censorship impossible nor anonymous. its censorship resistant and pseudonymous. because the flaw is in the human aspect of the actions of the key holder. EG human that is publicly known associated with address and human that is afraid of being put in prison, will get served by a court order to stop doing something or face punishment.
same goes for businesses. you cant stop the network. but you can stop businesses and their employees from getting involved by threatening them with punishment

the court has already got the mareva suspects to halt moving the funds. again this is not "the government" and its not "does not have power"
its the private citizen(coffee shop owner) gained power via the courts(a judge is not a member of parliament) to put a stop to the movement of an allotment of coins. via common law allowed threats against the human known holders of the assets in question

its not about "stopping Bitcoin"(network/protocol) its about halting movement of an allotment of coins by having power over the human keyholders and businesses that may accept coins but now shouldnt... done via threats of fines or imprisonment of the human.

[Anonylz]

I am not aware of the US sanctioning any bitcoin addresses. Do you have a link to this happening?

Bro you've missed one of the biggest jokes of our time if you've missed this
Here is a link to U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY containing a bunch of bitcoin (and some altcoin) addresses that are under US "sanctions": https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/recent-actions/20211108
It gets even funnier if you check some of these addresses that are either empty or had a tiny amount of bitcoin in them.

Have they found anything incriminating in those wallets address under investigation or they just love to exercise their judicial rights on btc holders regardless if they actually committed a crime or not,
It is one thing to sanction any wallet address found wanting and another to go pressuring any address btc on it,
I think it was because of the way they go about with the wallet address sanctions thar the Nonchuk team gave such statement at the end of the letter, (although not very professional but deserving)

[franky1]

I don't think any country is going to comply with sanctions against people that are being investigated. That is not how Western jurisprudence works.

when MANY people get arrested, charged. go to court to be put on bail.
they are at this point 'still innocent' at the hearing stage, but at each stage have certain freedoms removed

the investigations are still going on. but the persons life is put on hold. eg they have conditions set upon them to not abscond out of jurisdiction, not have full access to their funds and other conditions. like surrender X amount(bail bond) as a security against absconding.

yep they are 'still innocent until proven'..  but handcuffed to certain conditions.
and yes infact that is how western jurisprudence does work.


..
also when courts make an order to freeze someones account. that person has yet to even stand before a court and make a plea, nor yet to stand before a court for a judge to give a verdict of guilt or innocent.
take the bitfinex theives for instance. they had many exchange accounts frozen from 2017-2022. yet only arrested on Feb 8th 2022 and not even had a judge give a verdict yet on their guilt/innocence. they are on house arrest with ankle monitors and had all bank accounts frozen too
these court orders are not verdicts of guilt. but just cease and desist order, or a demand for evidence orders whilst investigations continue.

so infact yes businesses and people do comply to such orders whilst people are being investigated, BEFORE any guilty plea/verdict. and yes infact that is how western jurisprudence does work.

if there was no freezing of assets at investigation stage. or no court demands for evidence pre-trial.. there would also be no hearings, or bail. people could be free to do as they please until a trial. but thats not how the courts work.
people are put under conditions before trial.
its laws related to 'destruction of evidence', 'risk of absconding' and 'contempt' that make it possible for courts to add in pre-trial conditions on people to avoid such risks that can hamper a later trial . so yea .. innocent vs suspect are not the same 'freedom' you presume

Have they found anything incriminating in those wallets address under investigation or they just love to exercise their judicial rights on btc holders regardless if they actually committed a crime or not,

the way the coffee shop owner managed to get a judge to validate a court order is because the coffee shop owner showed some evidence that the fund organisers are politically motivated in a 'separatists' group. with quotes that the fundraiser organisers dont like the french influence of eastern canada controlling western canada. and all the political group stuff of 'wexit'.
this is seen as suspect terror/ white supremacy group which triggered a fear of not wanting to fund such radical groups.
its not about coins linked to a anti-vax convoy(truckers).. its that the coins are linked to radicalised nutjobs(organisers)

in short.. if any other fundraiser done a donation drive where the fundraiser was not as radicalised as the ones that did organise campaign. then it would have been more difficult to sway a judge into granting the order

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[pooya87]

Have they found anything incriminating in those wallets address under investigation or they just love to exercise their judicial rights on btc holders regardless if they actually committed a crime or not,

At this point is is more about the regime's addiction to sanctions. They've been using it as the last arrow in their already empty quiver, when they can't do anything else they start sanctioning. It is not surprising that most of their sanctions are ineffective.
As for the excuse they are using, you'd have to read the statements, I don't really follow the details of it. It is sometimes the individuals they don't like rather than any crime being involved.

[Wind_FURY]

OK, there’s a gaslighting troll in here that makes the topic confusing.

I have never used Nunchuck, I don’t how it works, but I assume it’s a non-custodial wallet like Electrum. My question, and for sake of the newbies. Can the company/developers behind the wallet be incriminated if the truckers used Nunchuck?

What wallet did Ross Ulbricht use? Or what wallets did criminals use? Can the developers of those wallets be incriminated too?

Don’t terrorists use old Nokia phones as detonators for bombs? Can Nokia be implicated for the bombings?

[franky1]

nunchuk is not being 'incriminated' for handling coins.
he is being requested to pass any/all information he knows about the suspected group

nunchuk is not in the mareva group (suspects list)
he is in the intermediary group(witness/service provider list)

if nunchuck fails to make a full and accurate statement that contains all details of information it has on the suspects, then nunchuck could be held in contempt

its all written up in the court order

its not about nunchuk having access to keys. its about anyone or any business aiding the key holders in any way
things like

NOTICE
If you, the Defendant, disobey this order you may be held to be in contempt of
court and may be imprisoned, fined or have your assets seized. You are entitled
to apply on at least twenty-four (24) hours notice to the Plaintiff, for an order
granting you sufficient funds for ordinary living expenses and legal advice and
representation.
Any other person who knows of this order and does anything which helps or
permits the Defendant to breach the terms of this Order may also be held to be in
contempt of court and may be fined or imprisoned.

Mareva Injunction
2. THIS COURT ORDERS that the Mareva Respondents and their servants, employees, agents, assigns, officers, directors and anyone else acting on their behalf or in conjunction with any of them, and any and all persons with notice of this Order, are restrained from directly or
indirectly, by any means whatsoever:
   (a) selling, removing, dissipating, alienating, transferring, assigning, encumbering,
        or similarly dealing with the assets of the Mareva Respondents listed in Schedule “A”
   (b) instructing, requesting, counselling, demanding, or encouraging any other person
         to conduct themselves contrary to paragraph 2(a) above;
  and
   (c) facilitating, assisting in, aiding, abetting, or participating in any acts the effect of
        which is to contrary to paragraph 2(a) above, until final disposition of this action or further Order of this Court.

11. THIS COURT ORDERS that the Intermediaries shall forthwith disclose and deliver up
to the Plaintiffs any and all records held by the Intermediary concerning the Mareva
Respondents’ assets, including the existence, nature, value and location of any monies or assets
or credit, wherever situate, held on behalf of the Mareva Respondent by the Intermediaries.

[NeuroticFish]

1. nunchuck has seized the opportunity for a marketing hit for free.

2. Since nunchuck name was already published, sooner or later questions will be asked, hence telling about the email addresses is not much of a mistake, it's not a secret and will probably be asked/required anyway - sooner or later. I just hope the e-mail addresses are not complete.full.name@gmail.com, because then the owners of those coins will - sooner or later - get into trouble.

[franky1]

1. nunchuck has seized the opportunity for a marketing hit for free.

2. Since nunchuck name was already published, sooner or later questions will be asked, hence telling about the email addresses is not much of a mistake, it's not a secret and will probably be asked/required anyway - sooner or later. I just hope the e-mail addresses are not complete.full.name@gmail.com, because then the owners of those coins will - sooner or later - get into trouble.

its not just email addresses nunchuck knows. he also had communication with the mareva group(suspects with radical separatist connections). where he provided technical support to them.. (a guy in the mareva group outted nunchuks extra involvement)
https://youtu.be/_FD9xfSI9PQ?t=275
now listen to the videos words from the suspected radicalist
"the team at nunchuk have been tremendously helpful and supportive, H and D have made themselves available around the clock for technical support, if and when issues arise and we have already used nunchuk wallet already in interim wallets leading up to this final wallet"


and so nunchuk should provide all communication records too, as requested by 2.c and 11
under threat of

NOTICE
Any other person who knows of this order and does anything which helps or
permits the Defendant to breach the terms of this Order may also be held to be in
contempt of court and may be fined or imprisoned.

that said.
those doing the fundraise.. should have not been involved. heck they should not even of been so public about outting names of different people/services involved. as that caused nunchuks involvement


and instead had some of the truckers that want to protest should have self organised their own fundraise without the political separatist radical group involved. (or nominate a non 'separatist radical' organiser..)
also the funds(via a less radical organiser) should have been paid out far sooner.. like EVERY DAY to the truckers.

then this whole event would have played out far differently.

listen to the organiser explain how they wanted to play with the funds
https://youtu.be/_FD9xfSI9PQ?t=329
"we are putting this into an interim multisig which would then go to 2 destinations, destination 1 is a hardware wallet controlled by the non profit treasurer(known separatist radical) this will be about 20% of the funds.
and then the remaining 80% will go to a multisig wallet with the directors(known separatist radicals) of the non-profit as keyholders, so the hardware wallet will be funds that will be used {A} and the multisig will serve to hold the bulk of the funds until they are needed, and when they are needed they will be migrated in batches to the hardware wallet which would then be sent to an offramp to be sent to the truckers"
{A}note future tense even after a fortnight of protests
"options that we are going to offer the truckers, we are going to offer to pay their credit card bill and we can even actually overpay their creditcard bills so that they have cash available to withdraw. we are also going to be using e-transfers, direct bank deposits and potentially giftcards"

funny part is even though the protests had been going on for 2 weeks at the point of video.. he says
note future tense even after a fortnight of protests
"we are going to start to gather information from individual truckers about their financial needs and if all goes to plan we are going to be able to begin sending funds in 48 hours, if all goes smooth".

hmm they should have been talking to truckers from the 28th of january, talking to them daily. thanking them for turning up and making sure they are well looked after each day... (thats what good protest organisers do)  and started and paying out daily.
..
yes canadian public can support other canadians in protest.
but the fatal flaw in this whole event is when known political radical/separatists/extremists got involved in organising it. as that was the mud that turned the water brown.
if it were a situation of general public donating to truckers that just wanted better working conditions, protesting only about the covid restrictions placed on truckers(what the convoy should have been about)... there would have been no issues

[NeuroticFish]

now listen to the videos words from the suspected radicalist

Ouch. "Everything you say can be used against you."

and instead had some of the truckers that want to protest should have self organised their own fundraise without the political separatist radical group involved. (or nominate a non 'separatist radical' organiser..)
also the funds(via a less radical organiser) should have been paid out far sooner.. like EVERY DAY to the truckers.

Sadly this happens way too often: legitimate protest and their benefits (whether it's political or financial) are too easily diverted/overtaken by political groups.
So sadly that money was basically never meant to actually get to the truckers (maybe a few crumbs). Quite sad for those actually donating, very sad for those losing money and maybe their jobs too for participating to the protests.


What's the official justification for seizing those funds? To pay damages for the businesses that have lost money?

[iamsheikhadil]

Lmfao  Bitcoin was created just for this actually, isn't it?! So that governments can never control or block any user's funds or breach their privacy for their own selfish intents, well maybe as some says, the language could have been more polite but the fact that the court didn't even do some research about how the things work expose their negligence as well! The last line was really so pleasing though

[bittraffic]

now listen to the videos words from the suspected radicalist

Ouch. "Everything you say can be used against you."

and instead had some of the truckers that want to protest should have self organised their own fundraise without the political separatist radical group involved. (or nominate a non 'separatist radical' organiser..)
also the funds(via a less radical organiser) should have been paid out far sooner.. like EVERY DAY to the truckers.

Sadly this happens way too often: legitimate protest and their benefits (whether it's political or financial) are too easily diverted/overtaken by political groups.
So sadly that money was basically never meant to actually get to the truckers (maybe a few crumbs). Quite sad for those actually donating, very sad for those losing money and maybe their jobs too for participating to the protests.


What's the official justification for seizing those funds? To pay damages for the businesses that have lost money?

Most protest will have a political group behind it, sad to see its not really going to look very geniune when suddenly they appear to support and even take over as part of the organizers. Doesnt just happen in this truckers convoy though.

Anyway, so the response of nonchuk is just a marketing gimmick because after all the email is not from the government as well. I was about to praise them for grewing balls.

[suzanne5223]

Lmfao   Bitcoin was created just for this actually, isn't it?

Yes, this is one of the reasons why Bitcoin was created in a decentralized way and I hope people that make use of custodial wallets can this Ontario Court of Justice statement so they can understand the benefit of not keeping their coin on an exchange site.

So that governments can never control or block any user's funds or breach their privacy for their own selfish intents,

Mind you, Bitcoin is not a privacy coin and it is never an anonymous coin. Extra effort is needed to get privacy.

but the fact that the court didn't even do some research about how the things work expose their negligence as well! The last line was really so pleasing though

They may believe the wallet used was an exchange wallet or still naive about how the Bitcoin wallet operate.

[Bitstar_coin]

the team at nunchuk have been tremendously helpful and supportive, H and D have made themselves available around the clock for technical support, if and when issues arise and we have already used nunchuk wallet already in interim wallets leading up to this final wallet

From the statement in the above video, it seems Nonchuk had done more than Just being a non-custodian wallet address provider, they provide extra help with a back and forth communication This is where the problem is, it seems they have been in communication with this group which means that know more than they are letting on,
Withholding vital information during an investigation is a criminal offense and Nonchuk can be hold in accountable for their action.

[franky1]

What's the official justification for seizing those funds? To pay damages for the businesses that have lost money?

well thats what the coffee shop owner is saying(plus ~30 other businesses). along with threats of violence by some protesters towards other bystanders and noise nuisance.. and.. and.. and.. how the organisers are linked to separatist groups and causing mischief.. well you can read the rest

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/convoy-class-action-claim-increased-to-306m-as-downtown-restaurateurs-join-lawsuit
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/class-action-complainant-alleges-trucker-threatened-her-by-backing-pickup-onto-sidewalk

and before certain people chime in..
the mareva injunction court order is not a criminal suit. and not filed "by government" its civil case(now class action) filed by ottowa residents/private business

separately the ottowa police did do some arrests for suspected criminal acts
which, in a separate case:
some of the organisers have already been arrested and one has already had bail denied and so will be detained
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/canadian-press-newsalert-ottawa-protest-organizer-tamara-lich-denied-bail/

[Darker45]

The response even without the last paragraph is already more than enough for the Ontario Superior Court of Justice to basically understand that it is beyond the wallet's ability to freeze funds. It is most likely that the court of justice does not understand how different kinds of Bitcoin wallets work so the entire response is making it clear. However, the addition of the last paragraph is unnecessary and uncalled for. I haven't read the communication of the court to Nunchuk but it seems the last portion of the response is unreasonably inviting a little trouble. But the response is indeed fun.

[davis196]

There's nothing funny about this.
The "Nunchuck team" is telling the truth.There's nothing funny about telling the truth.
I don't think that the Ontario Supreme Court is that incompetent,when it comes to cryptocurrency wallets and blockchain technology.
Basically the situation is the same as the Supreme Court ordering someone to give all his paper money,but the guy doesn't want to reveal where he buried his cash.
Or the Supreme court orders some guy to reveal where other people have buried their paper money.
This is quite an oversimplification,but it sounds kinda ridiculous.

[NeuroticFish]

What's the official justification for seizing those funds? To pay damages for the businesses that have lost money?

well thats what the coffee shop owner is saying(plus ~30 other businesses). along with threats of violence by some protesters towards other bystanders and noise nuisance.. and.. and.. and.. how the organisers are linked to separatist groups and causing mischief..

Like everywhere, some of those businesses are probably right and indeed into trouble, some others are hyenas who try to squeeze an extra buck.
Probably the same with the truckers too: some do need badly some financial help (and most probably those will not come to say it publicly) and some groups want to squeeze some money for their interests.
This is the "beauty" of it: the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It all started well, but I think that it won't be pretty at the end...

--
Even Bitcoin and nunchuck got some free advertising off this, but I hoped that it will actually help actual truckers. At least some of them.