The due: please think before supporting or opposing a scam accusation

[martingalecalculator.com]

It's funny how the members who wearing Casinos signatures is the only ones agree with the OP. 
It's like they are worrying about losing the only source of income they have.
Replying to each other's that's really funny and sad for the bitcointalk.
Anybody who doesn't agree. Or anybody who doesn't get paid by the casinos is an alt.  What a funny discussion. . . .

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

It's funny how the members who wearing Casinos signatures is the only ones agree with the OP. 
It's like they are worrying about losing the only source of income they have.
Replying to each other's that's really funny and sad for the bitcointalk.
Anybody who doesn't agree. Or anybody who doesn't get paid by the casinos is an alt.  What a funny discussion. . . .

Are you the third one after Poika5 and Martingaleboy? Do you see the topic I created makes more sense now?

But how can Sportsbook A have evidence that I placed the opposing bet on Sportsbook B? They can't. It's all speculation on their part.

Do you know who provides the odds to sportsbook? It's odd providers. There are not many odd providers considering the number of sportsbook exists. Many sportsbook have common odd providers and those odd providers store all information of the gamblers who gamble in their clients platforms. Not all are speculation as you think.

[Poika5]

Do you know who provides the odds to sportsbook? It's odd providers. There are not many odd providers considering the number of sportsbook exists. Many sportsbook have common odd providers and those odd providers store all information of the gamblers who gamble in their clients platforms. Not all are speculation as you think.

Genius, they also have the same odds. How are you supposed to arbitrage bet on Roobet and BC.Game if they have the same odds(Both use Betby as their provider)?

By the way, all of this talk about arbitrage betting is pointless because GekkeBelg was top-down betting.

Are you the third one after Poika5 and Martingaleboy? Do you see the topic I created makes more sense now?

Villainizing people who don't agree with you? If you can't handle criticism you shouldn't post about topics you don't understand.

[Martingaleboy]

Do you know who provides the odds to sportsbook? It's odd providers. There are not many odd providers considering the number of sportsbook exists. Many sportsbook have common odd providers and those odd providers store all information of the gamblers who gamble in their clients platforms. Not all are speculation as you think.

Genius, they also have the same odds. How are you supposed to arbitrage bet on Roobet and BC.Game, if they have the same odds(Both use Betby as their provider)?

By the way, all of this talk about arbitrage betting is pointless because GekkeBelg was top-down betting.

answering those bunch of signature spammers is pointless . if you notice each one of them wearing a signature of a Casino.  So ofcourse they want to defend the Casinos.
they even got offended since their source of income threatned.  i dont even know the guy they talking about
btw they think we are the same 

[JackpotRacer]

I thought I did not see right when I saw your Thread Title

>please think before supporting or opposing a scam accusation<

How comes that you are supporting/defending 2 Scammers? Are you for real?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5485686.msg63916884#msg63916884

Guys you can spare any aggressive attacks or foul language. This is a serious discussion and a very good title but sadly created by the wrong one

[holydarkness]

I thought I did not see right when I saw your Thread Title

>please think before supporting or opposing a scam accusation<

How comes that you are supporting/defending 2 Scammers? Are you for real?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5485686.msg63916884#msg63916884

Guys you can spare any aggressive attacks or foul language. This is a serious discussion and a very good title but sadly created by the wrong one

Umm... two scammers... who? On the link you provided, it's rather clear that --coming from the seemingly impaired and dented logic of yours-- the scammer is blackjack.fun. But here, on this thread? Who exactly do you refer as a scammer that BGC defended? GekkeBelg? The casino? Which casino?


Now, regarding GekkeBelg, I've been silent and observing this thread from a corner for quite some time. I personally think this is unfair for BGC, as I am the one who asked him a follow-up about his investigation and [I believe] I made him publish this thread.

To lay it out in the open, I am in a very tight position.

As stated on my last [and only] post here, I reached to GekkeBelg and exchanged one or two PMs regarding this [and his absence from this thread]. I am not sure how much liberty I have to brush this topic without violating the confidentiality entailed a PM, how much can I say without him considering me violating the private nature of the information he gave me, and I've been mulling over the best approach to address this issue ever since.

So I think the best approach will be to disregard everything and start new.

I think, I can safely say that GekkeBelg is a value bettor, he made it known on one occasion,

[...]I will admit that when I am betting, I have about 5 sportsbooks open at the same time, and whenever I like a certain bet I do a quick lookaround among those 5 and I place the bet at the sportsbook where the odds are the highest at that moment. This is completely normal and fair behaviour and it's the same as buying your bread at the cheapest bakery out of the 2 bakeries which are located next to each other. [...]

though on other [earlier] cases, he denied such practice

[...]
As I said, I have been an active customer there for 11 months and always used the same betting style. I am not doing value betting, whatever that may be. I simply watch the NBA and MLB games and when I feel like a team is going to win I place the bet, just like any other gambler would do. And why was my betting style never a problem when I was losing so much? And now one good run is suddenly not acceptable for them? Even when I am in a big minus altogether over the lifetime of my account, they simply decide to steal my own money. If I am doing "value betting" for 11 months over a sample of about 2000 bets in total, how can it be that I am not even in the plus? How much bigger proof do they need that this is not "value betting"?
[...]

Do casinos prohibit this strategy? Well, as several users already mentioned here, no. At least not those who had conflict with GekkeBelg. I take a quick stroll on those casinos and can't find value betting on their ToS or sports-rules [I am currently reaching some casinos' representatives to get a better understanding of their view on this, just to be sure] with exception of WinTomato who explicitly describe they prohibit this strategy.

Does that automatically translates that GekkeBelg is, WinTomato aside, innocent here? I say, "no".

As many people know [at least those who has the privilege to experience adulthood], we live in the massive gray, it is not a simple yes or no, he's wrong so she's right, there are many shades in between, and this is where GekkeBelg resides.

He had/has experience with casinos. Plural. He probably experimented on them, see who tolerate his strategy and who won't; looking for those who will limit him, those who will refund his money and lock the door behind his back, and those who take a bold action and refuses his winning.

It's suffice to say he understand that, although it is not against rules, casinos are very much against this practice. And he pushed his luck by trying every casino, hopping from one to another. There even a slight probability that he weaponized it, upon learning that casinos are prohibiting the practice from WinTomato [the one who happen to have the rule on their ToS], he made sure to check every casinos he played doesn't specify this on their ToS, so when it's used against him, his situation is bulletproof.

Is that wrong? Umm, I'll say that's actually clever and that's how ToS should be used.

But are those ethical and acceptable? Well, I'll leave this to every individual to decide.

I personally think that this thread has served its purpose, to inform us that there is more than meet the eye with GekkeBelg. He's sharp and knows his way around. So next case with him, [note to self] it's probably a good idea to touch it with one-meter-long pole and a healthy pinch of salt.

Unless... if LM is in the mood of spilling some tea? Beans, perhaps? I am readying my pen and notebook. LOL.

[Poika5]

By the way, all of this talk about arbitrage betting is pointless because GekkeBelg was top-down betting.

I mentioned his strategy before, it's called the top down method.
The Top Down Method is when you identify a sharp line from a sportsbook and consider that your “source of truth.” You then pick off advantageous bets at other sportsbooks based on that source of truth.

That's it, there's nothing fancy about it. No arbitrage betting, no syndicate betting. Just some guy comparing odds.

he made sure to check every casinos he played doesn't specify this on their ToS, so when it's used against him, his situation is bulletproof.

Technically he messed up against BC.Game, because they are freerolling all of their customers: 3.3 Sportsbook platform reserves the right to refuse, restrict, cancel or limit any bet. That's why he lost his AskGamblers case against Bc.Game.

on those casinos and can't find value betting on their ToS or sports-rules

What about the losers who wrongly think that they are value betting? Most sportsbettors think they have an edge but in reality only 2% win.
What if I don't know if I have an edge or not? It's incredibly hard to define what exactly is a valuebet, especially if you bet on smaller markets.

[holydarkness]

By the way, all of this talk about arbitrage betting is pointless because GekkeBelg was top-down betting.

I mentioned his strategy before, it's called the top down method.
The Top Down Method is when you identify a sharp line from a sportsbook and consider that your “source of truth.” You then pick off advantageous bets at other sportsbooks based on that source of truth.

Okay, thank you for the... clarification. Where do you get or implied it from? A quick search on GekkeBelg's post seems bear zero result of him talking about this specific technic, so I think he doesn't make it public.

That's it, there's nothing fancy about it. No arbitrage betting, no syndicate betting. Just some guy comparing odds.

And determine the best platform to place the bets according to those comparison. Thus, value betting.

he made sure to check every casinos he played doesn't specify this on their ToS, so when it's used against him, his situation is bulletproof.

Technically he messed up against BC.Game, because they are freerolling all of their customers: 3.3 Sportsbook platform reserves the right to refuse, restrict, cancel or limit any bet. That's why he lost his AskGamblers case against Bc.Game.

Now, that is the good practice of using ToS from casino's side. That thing works both ways.

on those casinos and can't find value betting on their ToS or sports-rules

What about the losers who wrongly think that they are value betting? Most sportsbettors think they have an edge but in reality only 2% win.
What if I don't know if I have an edge or not? It's incredibly hard to define what exactly is a valuebet, especially if you bet on smaller markets.

Please rephrase.

[Poika5]

Okay, thank you for the... clarification. Where do you get or implied it from? A quick search on GekkeBelg's post seems bear zero result of him talking about this specific technic, so I think he doesn't make it public.

I analyzed his bets and compared the odds. The pattern is the same every time.
Soft
Sharper
These types of edges are small, but it's enough to profit in the long run.

And determine the best platform to place the bets according to those comparison. Thus, value betting.

He's a live value bettor, and there's nothing wrong with that. The goal of sportsbetting is to turn a profit. As long as he didn't break the rules, the sportsbook should honor his bets.
The funniest thing is that Bc.Game is coaching people on how to value bet:
https://betting.bc.game/betting-academy/types-of-bets/value-bets

1. Teach value betting. 2. Void all the value bets. IQ 200

Now, that is the good practice of using ToS from casino's side. That thing works both ways.

These kinds of rules should be a massive red flag to all the BC.Game customers. You don't want to win a 30k$ parlay on the site that has every right to void your bet.

Please rephrase.

There are a lot of reasons why sportsbooks don't add rules about value betting. It would be incredibly off-putting for all the customers(Even the losers) and in a lot of cases, it's almost impossible to tell if somebody is value betting.

[holydarkness]

He's a live value bettor, and there's nothing wrong with that. The goal of sportsbetting is to turn a profit. As long as he didn't break the rules, the sportsbook should honor his bets.

I'll invite you to read my posts again, carefully, and return here once you did.

The funniest thing is that Bc.Game is coaching people on how to value bet:
https://betting.bc.game/betting-academy/types-of-bets/value-bets

1. Teach value betting. 2. Void all the value bets. IQ 200

Now, that is the good practice of using ToS from casino's side. That thing works both ways.

These kinds of rules should be a massive red flag to all the BC.Game customers. You don't want to win a 30k$ parlay on the site that has every right to void your bet.

Please rephrase.

There are a lot of reasons why sportsbooks don't add rules about value betting. It would be incredibly off-putting for all the customers(Even the losers) and in a lot of cases, it's almost impossible to tell if somebody is value betting.

BC? Why BC? GekkeBelg opened scam accusations across many platforms. The most recent one, of which prompt BGC to finally do his investigation, was with coins.game. People are talking in general here, and you're focusing on... BC? Because he didn't get refund on that case, or for what reason is it does BC specifically being mentioned over and over?

[Poika5]

I'll invite you to read my posts again, carefully, and return here once you did.

Sorry, my bad. My last post was supposed to be an explanation for the other readers why value betting isn't something bad.

BC? Why BC? GekkeBelg opened scam accusations across many platforms. The most recent one, of which prompt BGC to finally do his investigation, was with coins.game. People are talking in general here, and you're focusing on... BC? Because he didn't get refund on that case, or for what reason is it does BC specifically being mentioned over and over?

Why did I mention BC.Game so much? It's just random luck. First I pointed out that GekkeBelg made a mistake against them. Then I found their 'betting academy' and wanted to point out the hypocrisy of sportbooks.

Because he didn't get refund on that case

They ended up paying GekkeBelg, even though they didn't have to(According to their TOS).


Overall I think we are on the same page.

Does that automatically translates that GekkeBelg is, WinTomato aside, innocent here? I say, "no".

I would say yes, but obviously I'm very biased.

[holydarkness]

I'll invite you to read my posts again, carefully, and return here once you did.

Sorry, my bad. My last post was supposed to be an explanation for the other readers why value betting isn't something bad.

BC? Why BC? GekkeBelg opened scam accusations across many platforms. The most recent one, of which prompt BGC to finally do his investigation, was with coins.game. People are talking in general here, and you're focusing on... BC? Because he didn't get refund on that case, or for what reason is it does BC specifically being mentioned over and over?

Why did I mention BC.Game so much? It's just random luck. First I pointed out that GekkeBelg made a mistake against them. Then I found their 'betting academy' and wanted to point out the hypocrisy of sportbooks.

Because he didn't get refund on that case

They ended up paying GekkeBelg, even though they didn't have to(According to their TOS).


Overall I think we are on the same page.

Does that automatically translates that GekkeBelg is, WinTomato aside, innocent here? I say, "no".

I would say yes, but obviously I'm very biased.

In regards to BC's "hypocrisy", I can probably explain this part based on what casino representatives explained to me. Basically, it goes in line with what BGC said, regarding sportsbook providers and how they tagged people.

On some cases, casinos [though not all] are actually don't have issue with value bettor, that's probably why BC have that page on their academy [I didn't glance at that link and take your word for it], but from time to time, their sportsbook provider detected some abusive behavior and asked the casino to hold the winning.

We are not strictly speaking about value betting, there are numerous cases of bets being held for investigation for several reasons, like arbing, limitation circumvention, odds manipulation, you name it. On some of these cases, as it is well known, it's the provider who ask for that investigation, not the casino's own initiative.

Going back to the value betting and BC [or other casinos], most of the time, if the violation is not too severe [let's say they're just value betting and not multi-acc-ing] or on what they can tolerate, they'll just let the case go. Which I shall assume means they're paying those users from their own pocket, given the provider will not pay the winning.

This should explains [actually, more to strengthen what BGC said] why GekkeBelg got flagged numerous times across platform, because the providers have his data, he's been marked by the providers.

So, with above paragraphs as an addition, since you brushed it on your last sentence, I'll repeat my previous reflection, does GekkeBelg innocent? I'll stay with my previous answer: no.

I believe he's well versed on casino and how they works. I mean, IIRC he claimed he's been playing on hundred of sportbook? He certainly more or less realized how things work with sportsbook and their provider, and he still utilize this strategy, knowing those casinos are paying him from their own pocket.

So, is he wrong? No. But is he innocent? Also no.

[mindrust]

There's nothing wrong with any of these things. Every respected sportsbook pays winning customers. It doesn't matter if GekkeBelg did steamchase or used oddscreen like Spankodds. The whole point of being a sports bettor is to take advantage of the odds, it's literally the only way you can win.

That’s the thing. You cannot and should not make gambling your job. It is the only way you can win means it is the only way the casinos lose money. Casinos want to make money in the long run and you want the same thing. Both of you cannot coexist. One of you should stop and I can assure you it won’t be the casinos.

Take that any way you like.

You simply cannot win in the long run. Even if you beat math, you’ll lose to ToS. There is a reason why the casinos ban stuff like arbitrage betting, ev betting etc. they make them lose money.

You can get lucky and win every once in a while.

The casinos are always lucky in the grand scheme of things. Being lucky is their job.

[coolcoinz]

First, let me start by saying I'm not much into betting, and especially not into sports betting. To me, it always looked far too arbitrary as for which rules apply.

The group targets sportsbook which has less limitations and takes advantages of the odds.

Why would that be a problem? If a casino offers favourable bets, what's wrong with using them?

Isn't that what's called arbitrage betting? I've never done it but I feel like it's a legit way of minimizing potential losses.
What you've said is more or less how I see the situation.

Let's say this is a group, as long as they all go through KYC that proves each account is owned by a different person and they simply communicate to place bets together, that's being smart, not cheating.

As for accusations, I usually try to check how the casino responds to the problem. Usually the casino tries to take user's money and delay things for as long as possible, which is like taking revenge on the player. That's completely unprofessional behavior presented by the casino.

[holydarkness]

Isn't that what's called arbitrage betting? I've never done it but I feel like it's a legit way of minimizing potential losses.
What you've said is more or less how I see the situation.

Let's say this is a group, as long as they all go through KYC that proves each account is owned by a different person and they simply communicate to place bets together, that's being smart, not cheating.

As for accusations, I usually try to check how the casino responds to the problem. Usually the casino tries to take user's money and delay things for as long as possible, which is like taking revenge on the player. That's completely unprofessional behavior presented by the casino.

Unlike value bet --that's explained above-- group bets and betting syndicate are actually considered as a violation by many casinos and explicitly stated as forbidden on their ToS. Snippets of those rule are as below,