The due: please think before supporting or opposing a scam accusation

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

I was interested to spend my time in it. I am in contact with some of the gambling platforms you had problems in the past. One of them already responded the inquiry I had from them. But I need a few more response before I make a report about my investigation. So, I am not going to make a conclusion yet.

You can follow the whole post from the above quote to know the link of the topic.

tl;dr;
My bad. I legged behind. Out of 6 sportsbook, I got response from 3 and all have a common complain which is GekkeBelg has connection with group betters. The group targets sportsbook which has less limitations and takes advantages of the odds.

When I was communicating with those sportsbook, I tried to keep myself neutral and did not give any hint to any of these sportsbook [because my goal was to hear from them first without giving any hint or influence so that I can make a conclusion based on their responses]. In their responses they had many explanations, some were logical and some were not but just the excuses of the usual sportsbook terms and conditions. However, unfortunately for GekkeBelg their response were somehow the same. Some of them were even directly blaming the community for judging a case without knowing the inner information. 

For example, a part of the response from one sportsbook

But after the fud our manager was quite upset and decided to pay him in whole. [I removed the amount in btc]. As you can see, as multiple cases have happened... they decided to call off the bitcointalk campaign eventually.

A part from another sportsbook

the user is a professional value bettor. The group use arbitrage tools to target slow feed on sportsbook and then use rumors on bitcoin forum to get the money

Another sportsbook

We have evidences of group betting but by law we can not share any information. The owner doesn't want to face troubles like anymore and decided to cut off all connections from bitcoin forum.

In summary, judging by the responses I received from the sportsbook, I believe the user GekkeBelg is foul-playing and he knows how to attack and raise voice for him by others in the bitcointalk community.

If anyone look at his accusation history [the topics he created], they will see he is following a template when he creates the accusations. The template covers all aspects to make an accusation believable. He knows very well that serious sportsbook will not share information because sharing the private information will get them in trouble. So it become easy for him to create pressure and eventually the sportsbook decides to pay him. Because of the bitter experience, sportsbook lose interest from the community and decides to leave forever. They cut off the advertising they had in the forum and in some cases they even abandoned their announcement thread.

To conclude, I strongly believe users like GekkeBelg is using the community as their shield, they are taking advantages of good forum members who are always trying to help bitcointalk users. As a result, many crypto projects are deciding to leave the community and the community is losing business such as earning from signature campaign and special promotions exclusively for bitcointalk users.

From today, I will personally ignore any scam accusations from the user GekkeBelg.

@holydarkness

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[Poika5]

You don't understand sports betting.

Out of 6 sportsbook, I got response from 3 and all have a common complain which is GekkeBelg has connection with group betters. The group targets sportsbook which has less limitations and takes advantages of the odds.

the user is a professional value bettor. The group use arbitrage tools to target slow feed on sportsbook and then use rumors on bitcoin forum to get the money

There's nothing wrong with any of these things. Every respected sportsbook pays winning customers. It doesn't matter if GekkeBelg did steamchase or used oddscreen like Spankodds. The whole point of being a sports bettor is to take advantage of the odds, it's literally the only way you can win.

By the way, every normal(non-crypto) sportsbook would limit his max bet and then pay him out. That's the industry standard.
Running a sportsbook is not supposed to be a risk-free business, sportsbooks already have a massive house edge(juice) in their favor.

[FatFork]

I've seen this happen before around here.  Folks seem quick to cry scam when things go south, even if it's just a run of bad luck.  And when it's the same person catching flak over and over, it does get suspicious and  hard to believe someone could keep running into bad luck, especially when it seems so systematic. Usually, there's more to the story.

Anyway, nice job double checking things instead of just believing the accusation.  We need more of that.

[holydarkness]

[...]
@holydarkness

I see. Thank you for this release of your investigation. I hope the outcome of this thread can be used to determine the flag he raised on Coins.Game as well as the verdict of the accusation.

I'll try to notify GekkeBelg through PM, see what he's gonna say about this findings.

[Bitcoin_Arena]

Some of them were even directly blaming the community for judging a case without knowing the inner information.

It's hard to make proper judgement if there is limited information shared by the accused.
Maybe what the sportsbook representatives can do is to try to use independent arbitrators of their choice to solve such disputes if they can not share sensitive information with the community.

A user having over half a dozen scam accusations against different casinos in just that short period of time definitely raises some flags. You can't be that unlucky, even if you are a serial gambler.

[Martingaleboy]

I was interested to spend my time in it. I am in contact with some of the gambling platforms you had problems in the past. One of them already responded the inquiry I had from them. But I need a few more response before I make a report about my investigation. So, I am not going to make a conclusion yet.

You can follow the whole post from the above quote to know the link of the topic.

tl;dr;
My bad. I legged behind. Out of 6 sportsbook, I got response from 3 and all have a common complain which is GekkeBelg has connection with group betters. The group targets sportsbook which has less limitations and takes advantages of the odds.

When I was communicating with those sportsbook, I tried to keep myself neutral and did not give any hint to any of these sportsbook [because my goal was to hear from them first without giving any hint or influence so that I can make a conclusion based on their responses]. In their responses they had many explanations, some were logical and some were not but just the excuses of the usual sportsbook terms and conditions. However, unfortunately for GekkeBelg their response were somehow the same. Some of them were even directly blaming the community for judging a case without knowing the inner information. 

For example, a part of the response from one sportsbook

But after the fud our manager was quite upset and decided to pay him in whole. [I removed the amount in btc]. As you can see, as multiple cases have happened... they decided to call off the bitcointalk campaign eventually.

A part from another sportsbook

the user is a professional value bettor. The group use arbitrage tools to target slow feed on sportsbook and then use rumors on bitcoin forum to get the money

Another sportsbook

We have evidences of group betting but by law we can not share any information. The owner doesn't want to face troubles like anymore and decided to cut off all connections from bitcoin forum.

In summary, judging by the responses I received from the sportsbook, I believe the user GekkeBelg is foul-playing and he knows how to attack and raise voice for him by others in the bitcointalk community.

If anyone look at his accusation history [the topics he created], they will see he is following a template when he creates the accusations. The template covers all aspects to make an accusation believable. He knows very well that serious sportsbook will not share information because sharing the private information will get them in trouble. So it become easy for him to create pressure and eventually the sportsbook decides to pay him. Because of the bitter experience, sportsbook lose interest from the community and decides to leave forever. They cut off the advertising they had in the forum and in some cases they even abandoned their announcement thread.

To conclude, I strongly believe users like GekkeBelg is using the community as their shield, they are taking advantages of good forum members who are always trying to help bitcointalk users. As a result, many crypto projects are deciding to leave the community and the community is losing business such as earning from signature campaign and special promotions exclusively for bitcointalk users.

From today, I will personally ignore any scam accusations from the user GekkeBelg.

@holydarkness

Just find a Job .
You went throught this and showed only one half wich is the casinos just to keep earning from the signature and you worrying about losing this income ? and make it seems like everyone complaing is lying ?  haha
yes just find a job lady .

[LoyceV]

First, let me start by saying I'm not much into betting, and especially not into sports betting. To me, it always looked far too arbitrary as for which rules apply.

The group targets sportsbook which has less limitations and takes advantages of the odds.

Why would that be a problem? If a casino offers favourable bets, what's wrong with using them?

the user is a professional value bettor. The group use arbitrage tools to target slow feed on sportsbook

This sounds a lot like a company risk to me. Is this a bad thing? The casino is also a professional, if their feed is somehow slower than competitors, they should improve their feed instead. They know very well they'll lose their customers if they offer worse betting terms than competitors. Obviously they don't like players who win, but I'm not convinced we can blame the player for that.

As a result, many crypto projects are deciding to leave the community and the community is losing business such as earning from signature campaign and special promotions exclusively for bitcointalk users.

I can't feel pity for casinos when a user wins. Those promotions are meant to make a profit, they're not running a charity.

I believe the user GekkeBelg is foul-playing

If that's true, it means several different casinos all allow foul play in their system. In that case they should change the system, or maybe even stop offering sports betting all together, instead of blaming the players who found a loophole.

He knows very well that serious sportsbook will not share information because sharing the private information will get them in trouble.

This sounds like they should change their business model, but the fact that they don't makes me think it's still profitable for them.

The whole point of being a sports bettor is to take advantage of the odds

I was thinking the same thing.

On the other hand:

Today is one of the worst days of my life. I cannot believe what Wintomato.com have done to me today. The simply took away my balance of 1.791 BTC (about 29K USD worth) with some rediculous reason mentioned.

"we confiscated your winnings of 0.1 BTC since you are from a restricted country and you should withdraw your initial balance now"

A couple days ago Coinplay decided to close my account and confiscate all my sports bet winnings (291mbtc).

I have a TERRIBLE experience with BC.game.

Let me tell you about my horrible experience with Bluechip.io

I am absolutely shocked about what Coins.game did to me today.

This really sounds like someone who should stop gambling.

[shasan]

I have gone through the profile of GekkeBelg and came to know the user is using the account as well as the forum to get benefits by creating scam accusations. When the person creates one accusation or two then that is okay but repeated for all (many reputed gambling sites) can't be perfect. And I think the user doing that intentionally. There is something wrong with the gambling activity of a person. I can't trust any scam accusation of this person as well.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

It's hard to make proper judgement if there is limited information shared by the accused.
Maybe what the sportsbook representatives can do is to try to use independent arbitrators of their choice to solve such disputes if they can not share sensitive information with the community.

Having words exchanged with different casino owners and casino representative, I realized for them this community is just another advertising platform like many other platforms. The community and the bitcoin is attached closely to our daily life but for them bitcoin community is an experiment, if advertising works then they continue but when they find difficulties they focus on other platforms where they get easy return of investment.

[...snip...]

There are many things about sportsbook and casino that I do not think fair but at the same time they are business institute, they run by their terms. When big companies find a user is trying to take advantages from them, they starts limiting the users. For that reason it's impossible to continue such betting [taking advantage, group betting, arbitrage betting] with big sportsbook but with small sportsbook I think a professional gambler can take the opportunity easily.

[Poika5]

There are many things about sportsbook and casino that I do not think fair but at the same time they are business institute, they run by their terms. When big companies find a user is trying to take advantages from them, they starts limiting the users. For that reason it's impossible to continue such betting [taking advantage, group betting, arbitrage betting] with big sportsbook but with small sportsbook I think a professional gambler can take the opportunity easily.

No
The smaller sportsbooks limit winners much faster because they are generally risk-averse and a lower volume of bets makes it easier to spot long-term winners.

[yahoo62278]

I believe the user GekkeBelg is foul-playing

If that's true, it means several different casinos all allow foul play in their system. In that case they should change the system, or maybe even stop offering sports betting all together, instead of blaming the players who found a loophole.

So because they found a loophole you are ok with them taking advantage? I agree that sportsbooks should not offer bets that players can take advantage of, but I also think that people in general shouldn't really be shady anytime they can.

As you have shown in the rest of your post, this guy has accusation after accusation against multiple casinos. If he had 1 or 2 accusations I think his story would hold more weight, but when he has accused more than half the casinos on here, something just makes it feel very shady on his part. On top of that, the community being so quick to judge, has cost the forum multiple campaigns according to replies BitcoinGirl.club posted.

I see the same thing starting to happen with stake.com and their campaign. Some people have opened up multiple threads about the campaigns participants and instead of trying to help stake improve, they are just getting out the pitchforks and trying to crucify the manager. How long til that casino decides to leave the forum as well?

A decent number of replies in all scam accusations shouldn't even be posted IMO. Some are just posting to get a post. Some are probably even competition trying to taint the casino and bring them business.

I'm not saying that casinos are always 100% right and I'm not saying that none of these scam accusations that pop up are not their fault, but I do think that instead of looking taking advantage of "loopholes" that the bettors should spend their time helping make the casino operate better vs taking their money. This user may have a legit complaint but they're all tainted due to the number of complaints. He should realize that casinos all share information.

[Poika5]

I believe the user GekkeBelg is foul-playing

If that's true, it means several different casinos all allow foul play in their system. In that case they should change the system, or maybe even stop offering sports betting all together, instead of blaming the players who found a loophole.

So because they found a loophole you are ok with them taking advantage? I agree that sportsbooks should not offer bets that players can take advantage of, but I also think that people in general shouldn't really be shady anytime they can.

1. The sportsbook chooses the games they offer
2. The sportsbook chose the odds & the maximum bet limits
3. The sportsbook accepted his bets

And now they are playing the victim because someone won.

but I do think that instead of looking taking advantage of "loopholes" that the bettors should spend their time helping make the casino operate better vs taking their money.

Got it, what a great idea. Going forward I will always try to lose because casinos are a charity and they need our help.
Yes, casinos are running the most predatory business in the world, BUT these poor souls have to deal with winning sports bettors occasionally! Imagine how hard is it to run a business where 98% of players are losers!

[LoyceV]

So because they found a loophole you are ok with them taking advantage? I agree that sportsbooks should not offer bets that players can take advantage of, but I also think that people in general shouldn't really be shady anytime they can.

I'm not sure about the whole concept of sports betting. Every casino player wants to take advantage of the casino, that's why they're gambling. If the casino offers a bet that's favourable for the user, and the user manages to find those, doesn't it just mean the user is better at what they're doing than the casino? It's not as if they've hacked the server seed in dice, that would be a clear case of abuse.

As you have shown in the rest of your post, this guy has accusation after accusation against multiple casinos. If he had 1 or 2 accusations I think his story would hold more weight, but when he has accused more than half the casinos on here, something just makes it feel very shady on his part.

I can't really Support or Oppose the accusations. It could be someone takes advantage of casinos, but on the other hand casinos take advantage of users too. Limiting winning users and letting losers play big seems like a one-sided solution.

I see the same thing starting to happen with stake.com and their campaign. Some people have opened up multiple threads about the campaigns participants and instead of trying to help stake improve, they are just getting out the pitchforks and trying to crucify the manager. How long til that casino decides to leave the forum as well?

The Stake campaign has been spamming Bitcointalk for years. It's clear by now they don't care as long as it's profitable.

I do think that instead of looking taking advantage of "loopholes" that the bettors should spend their time helping make the casino operate better vs taking their money.

That doesn't make sense. You can't expect someone to start helping companies. They're commercial businesses and they can pay people for that.

He should realize that casinos all share information.

This sounds like a GDPR violation.

So because they found a loophole you are ok with them taking advantage? I agree that sportsbooks should not offer bets that players can take advantage of, but I also think that people in general shouldn't really be shady anytime they can.

1. The sportsbook chooses the games they offer
2. The sportsbook chose the odds & the maximum bet limits
3. The sportsbook accepted his bets

I can't see how this would be a loophole. I'd like to read @SirJohnVonSlotty's opinion on this.

Disclaimer: I'm not sure how much of what I posted relates to GekkeBelg. It almost seems philosophical to discuss whether or not taking a bet they offer is abuse, even if you'd be certain you're going to win.

[Poika5]

It almost seems philosophical to discuss whether or not taking a bet they offer is abuse, even if you'd be certain you're going to win.

It's acceptable to VOID certain types of bets:

1. Late betting = Somebody has a better feed than the sportsbook, and they can see the next basket/goal before the sportsbook.
2. Obvious pricing errors = Detroit Pistons 58.8 instead of 5.8 etc
3. Matchfixing = abnormal and suspicious betting activity(Random Chinese Esports game gets 100k$ volume, while the standard is 200$).

*Although some sportsbooks do pay "late bettors".

[Mahdirakib]

Why would that be a problem? If a casino offers favourable bets, what's wrong with using them?

It is a normal habit for a group of bettors to search for the best odds in the market. It can't be considered as an offensive activity or crime. Even a lot of sportsbook promote themselves by saying that they are providing the best odds. Sportsbook usually consider it as offensive when a user place bets on those odds only which have been listed as higher by mistake. Because the bookmaker won't be able to maintain profit in that case.

the user is a professional value bettor. The group use arbitrage tools to target slow feed on sportsbook

This sounds a lot like a company risk to me. Is this a bad thing? The casino is also a professional, if their feed is somehow slower than competitors, they should improve their feed instead. They know very well they'll lose their customers if they offer worse betting terms than competitors. Obviously they don't like players who win, but I'm not convinced we can blame the player for that.

AFAIK, sportsbook doesn't slower the feed for all leagues. The feed is fast for the major sports event. But they make the feed slow for some local and unpopular sports event. In most of the cases, arbitrage bettors or value bettors complaints are related to the local league. They try to take advantages of the slow feed by using arbitrage tools. Everyone will use those kinds of betting techniques if sportsbook consider them as normal thing. Which will effect the sportsbook business in a negative way and they have to shut down their business. Betting sites make the feed slow for unpopular and local league as they don't get the updates on time to time from some local regions. The slow feed helps them to update the odds accordingly with the delayed information.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

And now they are playing the victim because someone won.

When your winning does not question, when you are gambling without making group, when you are not doing arbitrage betting, when you are not taking advantage of technical fault then no one is going to question your winnings. Even one or two misuse in lifetime is fine but as long as you create an identical fingerprint in your gambling abuse then you will be caught. The sportsbook will limit you, suspend your account. They will enforce everything according to their terms to get rid of you. It's fair because they are running a business and you are going there with the only intention to damage their business.

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

[yahoo62278]

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

Maybe they are all part of the same group so they don't all 3 need to respond? Obviously I'm just speculating.

[Poika5]

when you are gambling without making group

"Group betting" could mean anything, someone could be part of the syndicate or maybe just two friends placed a bet on the same game.
The other question is even if someone is part of the syndicate, how can sportsbook have any real condemning evidence of that?

CoinPlay sent some evidence to Askgamblers:

Didn't work.

when you are not doing arbitrage betting

I don't think any of these sportsbooks mention arbitrage in their TOS. Nevertheless...
NBA game Washington Wizards vs Detroit Pistons.
Sportsbook A offers Washington Wizards 2.02
Sportsbook B offers Detroit Pistons 2.02
If I bet 1000$ on both teams, I'm making 20$ either way.

But how can Sportsbook A have evidence that I placed the opposing bet on Sportsbook B? They can't. It's all speculation on their part.

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

You are advocating for a world where the sportsbooks have the ultimate power to freeroll everybody, without showing any evidence.
I'm just advocating for a world where sportsbooks honor their bets.

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

Maybe they are all part of the same group so they don't all 3 need to respond? Obviously I'm just speculating.

Maybe you and BitcoinGirl are the same person? I mean, you are both equally clueless about this topic. Obviously I'm just speculating.

but I do think that instead of looking taking advantage of "loopholes" that the bettors should spend their time helping make the casino operate better vs taking their money.

By the way, did you place your daily losing bets so you could help out the operator? I hope you didn't forget, they are really counting on you buddy.

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

Maybe they are all part of the same group so they don't all 3 need to respond? Obviously I'm just speculating.

Maybe you and BitcoinGirl are the same person? I mean, you are both equally clueless about this topic. Obviously I'm just speculating.

but I do think that instead of looking taking advantage of "loopholes" that the bettors should spend their time helping make the casino operate better vs taking their money.

By the way, did you place your daily losing bets so you could help out the operator? I hope you didn't forget, they are really counting on you buddy.

If you take a look at most of all 3 of you guys post histories, it's mostly scam accusations. If I went through and checked I'm sure that some of them are on the same sites around the same times. My speculation holds a little more water than your silly deflection. You don't have to agree and you're free to defend yourself if you feel you need to, but at least show some sort of intelligence if you expect me to reply anymore.

Sorry, I'm clearly not very intelligent, my time is worth a lot of money and I'm arguing with some guy who thinks that sportsbettors should try to lose. Maybe on Monday I will go to kindergarten and start having arguments with 4-year-olds, who knows?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[yahoo62278]

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

Maybe they are all part of the same group so they don't all 3 need to respond? Obviously I'm just speculating.

Maybe you and BitcoinGirl are the same person? I mean, you are both equally clueless about this topic. Obviously I'm just speculating.

but I do think that instead of looking taking advantage of "loopholes" that the bettors should spend their time helping make the casino operate better vs taking their money.

By the way, did you place your daily losing bets so you could help out the operator? I hope you didn't forget, they are really counting on you buddy.

If you take a look at most of all 3 of you guys post histories, it's mostly scam accusations. If I went through and checked I'm sure that some of them are on the same sites around the same times. My speculation holds a little more water than your silly deflection. You don't have to agree and you're free to defend yourself if you feel you need to, but at least show some sort of intelligence if you expect me to reply anymore.

[Little Mouse]

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

Maybe they are all part of the same group so they don't all 3 need to respond? Obviously I'm just speculating.

I got such a proof (not multiple bitcointalk but multiple casino accounts) regarding Gekkebelg from one casino but unfortunately, I was asked to keep the proof secret. And whenever I have read his scam accusations, I had the same feeling that he tries to manipulate discussions with alt account.

On top, he is a proven liar to me. Once he sent me a DM regarding shuffle. I got the notification of his DM, I have seen the message from the notification bar. After a few hours, I received a DM from another telegram user with almost same query. I instantly checked GekkeBelg telegram but found that he deleted the DM and was active 1/2 minutes ago. The new telegram user was also looking for Noah's telegram (shuffle founder). GekkeBelg, from his new telegram, asked me what was his name showing on telegram because he never used telegram and he is new etc etc lol.

And after a discussion with Noah, I learned that GekkeBelg was abusing shuffle as well.