Are Coinjoins safe to use in everyday life?

[fanya]

I am a big fan of Coinjoins for the following example:

You own a large amount of old Bitcoins and want to buy something, but in order to avoid revealing how much Bitcoin you have and becoming a target for attacks or hackers, you use Coinjoin.

Can Wabi-Sabi Wallet be traced? I came across a Reddit post where someone claimed that they were arrested because they used WabiSabi and received illegal coins, even though they deposited legal coins themselves, which would imply that WabiSabi can be traced.

Criminalizing privacy would be disastrous.

Any thoughts?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WasabiWallet/comments/cif3hc/warning_about_using_wasabi_it_can_ruin_your_life/

[Ruttoshi]

I don't know how possible that is, because coinjoin service means that if 10 people want to send $100 to their mother, their addresses will be collected and the coins joint together and sent to the receivers addresses from a different wallet not from you.

For example, I want to send bitcoin of $100 to Mr A, I send my bitcoin to the coinjoin service and someone else will send the money to Mr A from a different wallet not mine. Which makes me doubt that coinjoin service can be tracked. Maybe, I am wrong. As far as I know coinjoin is for privacy. Don't know that of wassabi happened. Bitcoin transaction is transparent on the blockchain.


You can use JoinMarket.

[lontivero]

Can Wabi-Sabi Wallet be traced?

The assumption is that it can not.

I came across a Reddit post where someone claimed that they were arrested because they used WabiSabi and received illegal coins, even though they deposited legal coins themselves, which would imply that WabiSabi can be traced.

Any thoughts?

Don't trust; verify

[dkbit98]

There are different kind of coinjoins, and if done correctly they should be safe enough for average users.
However, people often make mistakes with mixing different coins, and not doing good address management.
In case of this arrested guy, he could always show history of his Wasabi wallet and coin being mixed, this is not illegal.
Maybe the problem is not Bitcoin but strict laws in Australia, so I would not dierectly spend coins from Wasabi or connect them with real identity via verification.

[Cookdata]

I am a big fan of Coinjoins for the following example:

You own a large amount of old Bitcoins and want to buy something, but in order to avoid revealing how much Bitcoin you have and becoming a target for attacks or hackers, you use Coinjoin.

Can Wabi-Sabi Wallet be traced? I came across a Reddit post where someone claimed that they were arrested because they used WabiSabi and received illegal coins, even though they deposited legal coins themselves, which would imply that WabiSabi can be traced.

Criminalizing privacy would be disastrous.

Any thoughts?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WasabiWallet/comments/cif3hc/warning_about_using_wasabi_it_can_ruin_your_life/

That post on reddit is 6 years ago, you can see that the story isn't a complete story and it's from a second hand story teller, we can't say exactly what really went wrong.

If we travel back in time 6 years ago, we still have some exchange that were active without KYC, even Binance that is locking users account that received funds from mixers today weren't too anti KYC back then to know if the guy associate the Bitcoin to a centralized exchanges..

Coinjoin is a privacy tools and there has been some improvements and upgrades, maybe the Bitcoin sent through coinjoin was link to some stolen funds and some how it was trace back to the guy before this new implementation or it's possible he must have mistakenly spend some part of the mix Bitcoin alongside with the left over Bitcoin change or something. These are my assumptions and we can't know for sure until we hear the other side of the story.

If this guy actually used Wasabi wallet to improve privacy, why isn't the story popular and perhaps the guy must have been sentenced, the media will know about the guy and what really went wrong unless this is just a cook up story to make people scared of using coinjoin.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

I am a big fan of Coinjoins for the following example:

You own a large amount of old Bitcoins and want to buy something, but in order to avoid revealing how much Bitcoin you have and becoming a target for attacks or hackers, you use Coinjoin.

Can Wabi-Sabi Wallet be traced? I came across a Reddit post where someone claimed that they were arrested because they used WabiSabi and received illegal coins, even though they deposited legal coins themselves, which would imply that WabiSabi can be traced.

Criminalizing privacy would be disastrous.

Any thoughts?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WasabiWallet/comments/cif3hc/warning_about_using_wasabi_it_can_ruin_your_life/

What is the meaning of illegal coins, I want to believe it's some other shit coins out there you are talking about, but then, if what you are talking about is actually bitcoin, when did some parts of bitcoin on the blockchain become illegal, who made or declared those bitcoin illegal and where was it written, or was it written on the bitcoin blockchain explorer that the coins received were illegal?, was this actually written? I would love to see.

The heck people get arrested for something absolutely different but they want to put bitcoin to blame, since my involvement in crypto since 2016, ive never come across a part of bitcoin known to be illegal to receive, people use coinjoin for several reasons and one of those is what you already mentioned @op, this is never any part of bitcoin that is illegal to recieve except we just want to start deceiving ourselves.

[FinneysTrueVision]

I doubt somebody would get arrested simply for using coinjoin. If the user was innocent, but they were arrested anyways that would show they couldn’t trace coinjoins, they would just be accusing somebody based on wrong assumptions based on who they participated in a coinjoin with.

Wasabi coinjoins are easy to identify on the blockchain. Exchanges might see that you used Wasabi and it might lead to some questioning and freezing of your funds, but it would be very difficult to determine that you specifically are involved in criminal activity. They might arrive at that conclusion if you made a mistake when transacting, like spending anonymized funds with non-private coins.

[Cookdata]

I doubt somebody would get arrested simply for using coinjoin. If the user was innocent, but they were arrested anyways that would show they couldn’t trace coinjoins, they would just be accusing somebody based on wrong assumptions based on who they participated in a coinjoin with.

There are countries that are against the use of protocols that makes transaction too complex and untraceable due to their anti money laundering fight, they dislike when people are too private on the chain, engaging with such can lead to questions and investigations but from what OP saying, this happen six year ago, there was KYC and Aml around but it's not as tough as it's today and beside, who comes knocking on your door for using coinjoin if you are not connected to any exchange that was able identify him, the purpose of coinjoin was broken somewhere.

Wasabi coinjoins are easy to identify on the blockchain. Exchanges might see that you used Wasabi and it might lead to some questioning and freezing of your funds, but it would be very difficult to determine that you specifically are involved in criminal activity. They might arrive at that conclusion if you made a mistake when transacting, like spending anonymized funds with non-private coins.

Using Wasabi alone isn't enough to get him lock up, an output can be questionable but if he decide not to show his input there is no way they will ever know but like I said, the guy must have made a very simple mistake, there was no exchanges that were deeply forensic with coinjoin transaction, even mixers were everywhere doing there business and hardly you see reports about them until last few years. It's either this is one of the story that never happened or the guy did not properly use coinjoin well and must have spent a label profile coin.

[zabzob]

What is the status of coinjoins today? I thought coinjoin was dead ever since the Whirlpool admins got arrested and Wasabi discontinued their own coinjoin feature to avoid also being arrested. When I saw this thread I went to coinjoins.org and learned that Wasabi, apparently, is now back to doing coinjoin. And not only that, the Trezor wallet now has a coinjoin feature. I was surprised by this news. So is coinjoin now back in action? If so, what are the real volumes and liquidity, are lots of people using it?

[odolvlobo]

I mixed my coins though joinmarket when I moved them to cold storage a few years ago. Then, I recently sent some of those coins to Gemini Exchange and sold them without any problems.

A while later, without any warning or explanation, they closed my account. I suspect that it was because the coins I sold went through coinjoin (but I have no way of knowing).

[zabzob]

I mixed my coins though joinmarket when I moved them to cold storage a few years ago. Then, I recently sent some of those coins to Gemini Exchange and sold them without any problems.

A while later, without any warning or explanation, they closed my account. I suspect that it was because the coins I sold went through coinjoin (but I have no way of knowing).

lol, we're clearly living in a global police state.

[hugeblack]

Coinjoin transactions are easier to track (_{As a Coinjoin transaction, not as a source}) and therefore easier to classify, but they can't lead to jail time or any legal problems if you have a source for the coins, assuming mixing isn't considered illegal.

Therefore, it's best to use mixers and methods that don't leave a trace, or at least wait until services like Ginger Wallet filters are legally recognized.

[NotATether]

You most likely won't be traced if you use a WabiSabi coordinator, but your coins will be flagged as coming from a "mixer" (no matter how inaccurate that sounds) and will be restricted entry to exchanges.

Coinjoin transactions are easier to track (_{As a Coinjoin transaction, not as a source}) and therefore easier to classify

I want to emphasize that they are easier to classify, not identify. You largely can't identify the source of the coins without additional documentaion.

[Outhue]

I am a big fan of Coinjoins for the following example:

You own a large amount of old Bitcoins and want to buy something, but in order to avoid revealing how much Bitcoin you have and becoming a target for attacks or hackers, you use Coinjoin.

Can Wabi-Sabi Wallet be traced? I came across a Reddit post where someone claimed that they were arrested because they used WabiSabi and received illegal coins, even though they deposited legal coins themselves, which would imply that WabiSabi can be traced.

Criminalizing privacy would be disastrous.

Any thoughts?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WasabiWallet/comments/cif3hc/warning_about_using_wasabi_it_can_ruin_your_life/

What is the meaning of illegal coins, I want to believe it's some other shit coins out there you are talking about, but then, if what you are talking about is actually bitcoin, when did some parts of bitcoin on the blockchain become illegal, who made or declared those bitcoin illegal and where was it written, or was it written on the bitcoin blockchain explorer that the coins received were illegal?, was this actually written? I would love to see.

The heck people get arrested for something absolutely different but they want to put bitcoin to blame, since my involvement in crypto since 2016, ive never come across a part of bitcoin known to be illegal to receive, people use coinjoin for several reasons and one of those is what you already mentioned @op, this is never any part of bitcoin that is illegal to recieve except we just want to start deceiving ourselves.

Don't tell me that you don't understand what he is trying to say, some Bitcoin are illegal because they are stolen, it is like you buying stolen bitcoin while there is already a track on the stolen bitcoin and it's been traced back to you, this happened to someone I know, and this is why some part of me is scared of buying Bitcoin through privacy space or something similar.

There is no way to tell if a Bitcoin is stolen, and the those criminals will say they are using privacy space to secure their own data and information not knowing that they want to sell you stolen bitcoin, at times I don't blame the existence of platforms that ask users for KYC information, it is because of these crazy sets of people. I expect you to know better FiveStar4EverMVP.

[BlackBoss_]

You own a large amount of old Bitcoins and want to buy something, but in order to avoid revealing how much Bitcoin you have and becoming a target for attacks or hackers, you use Coinjoin.

If you lived a private life, use your Bitcoin wallets, addresses and UTXOs very privately, nobody know which Bitcoin addresses belong to you even you don't use Coinjoins for your transactions.

Using CoinJoin for your transactions require you to do other steps after geting outputs from Coinjoins as well as whether you want to use your bitcoins on centralized platforms or not. It's hilarious if people who want privacy have to use their bitcoins on centralized online platforms after Coinjoin process. However, after Coinjoin, if you use your outputs instantly for spending, your coins can be marked as tainted coins by online platforms and it's big risk.

Bitcoin Q&A: Blacklists, Taint, and Wallet Fingerprinting.

[rat03gopoh]

if what you are talking about is actually bitcoin, when did some parts of bitcoin on the blockchain become illegal, who made or declared those bitcoin illegal and where was it written, or was it written on the bitcoin blockchain explorer that the coins received were illegal?, was this actually written? I would love to see.

If you're used to using services labeled "AML-compliant," don't be naive. You do have the option to control your coins, but authorities control all centralized services and perhaps even portions of some blockchain Bitcoin explorers, allowing them to label bad coins or simply signal to chain analys firms. When your coins are flagged, your "freedom" movement is more restricted.

[pooya87]

It has its pros and cons, it is not just safe or unsafe.

Obviously when you use Coinjoin you are putting yourself at risk of being harassed by authoritarian governments that want total control and surveillance. They will try to harass as many people as they can to discourage as many users as they can from using Coinjoin which make their surveillance operations a lot easier so that they can harass you in an entirely different way by monitoring your financial activities!

So it is up to you to decide what route to take.

Also I would avoid using Wasabi wallet since they have openly admitted to be working with blockchain analysis companies! which are the exact opposite of being a privacy improving tools.
And I don't think they have any legal stance for arresting someone just for having used Coinjoin. It would be like arresting you for having a dollar bill considering majority of them have traces of cocaine on them!

[BlackBoss_]

Obviously when you use Coinjoin you are putting yourself at risk of being harassed by authoritarian governments that want total control and surveillance. They will try to harass as many people as they can to discourage as many users as they can from using Coinjoin which make their surveillance operations a lot easier so that they can harass you in an entirely different way by monitoring your financial activities!

When using Coinjoin, there is mandate thinking on what to do next after Coinjoin because governments already enforce KYC and AML on centralized platforms. Those platforms must obey AML policy from governments and have to try with their best to detect tainted coins. If people don't have proper practice after receiving coins from Coinjoin, and immediately interacts with centralized platforms, they can lose their coins.

Also I would avoid using Wasabi wallet since they have openly admitted to be working with blockchain analysis companies! which are the exact opposite of being a privacy improving tools.

The dangers when Bitcoin services use blockchain analytics.

Some guides for better privacy.
Bitcoin privacy and resources.
Bitcoin privacy guide.
Protect your privacy.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I have never encountered any issues with coinjoined coins, and I've used the "evil" corporations that are known for treating it as non-fungible (by spreading this tainted-coin nonsense). I have paid in Coinbase and BitPay invoices, even though I haven't tried depositing them on any merchant or regular user account.

Also I would avoid using Wasabi wallet since they have openly admitted to be working with blockchain analysis companies! which are the exact opposite of being a privacy improving tools.

There aren't any other better alternatives left, though. Samourai has shutdown, and it turned out to have a worse theoretical solution to coinjoin, as far as I understand. Also, Wasabi is no longer maintained by zkSNACKs, even though I would also have some skepticism on potential vulnerabilities in both client and coordinator software, because both theory and implementation are complicated.