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Author Topic: Bitcoin Is Property Not Currency  (Read 14714 times)
dogechode
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April 08, 2014, 03:14:48 AM
 #281

They don't really don't care about your bitcoins and your wallet on your computer.

Now that I highly, highly doubt.

If you guys are thinking you're "safe" as long as you never convert between fiat and btc, you are being naive.
LostDutchman
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April 08, 2014, 03:15:46 AM
 #282

I'm just thinking out loud here, but wouldn't it go something like this:
...
Am I missing something?

1) IRS receives a reports from your bank that you received incoming cash from your bitcoin exchange.
2) IRS examines your return and wonders why the 1099's from your bank aren't included with your return.
3) IRS sends you a bill for the tax on this gross income including penalties.

They don't really don't care about your bitcoins and your wallet on your computer.




Depends on how you handle things.......................................

My $.02.

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numismatics
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April 08, 2014, 03:47:15 AM
 #283

reusing an earlier post from a different thread:

The issue is one of administrative law, and I'm not sure how to reconcile the different treatment by two executive branch agencies. Both the IRS and FinCEN's definitions were promulgated in the form of a guidance document, which has no binding legal effect. Guidance documents are neither rules (which would require the agencies to comport with the rule-making requirements enumerated in the Administrative Procedures Act, 5 U.S.C. §§ 551-559), nor are they adjudications the substance of which can be appealed and reviewed by federal courts.

I see two ways forward, one short term and one long term:

Short term way forward: The IRS guidance document requests "comments from the public regarding other types or aspects of virtual currency transactions that should be addressed in future guidance." You can mail your comments to:

Internal Revenue Service
Attn: CC:PA:LPD:PR (Notice 2014-21)
Room 5203
P.O. Box 7604
Ben Franklin Station
Washington, D.C. 20044

I think taxing virtual currencies as property ignores the fact that they are indeed designed to be used as a medium of exchange. The IRS's definition treats BTC as property (and taxing according to capital gains), which means they perceive BTC as something that is purchased to appreciate in value. This perception is probably driven in part by how much BTC can fluctuate relative to fiat and the fact that some people are purchasing and selling for purely speculative purposes: the IRS wants to tax realized gains as income. The most significant problem with this guidance is that it discourages the use of BTC as a medium of exchange by imposing a substantial record keeping burden. It would be helpful if future guidance distinguished between the manner in which BTC was used, and in particular differentiating between using BTC to buy and sell goods and services (BTC as a medium of exchange) from purchasing and selling BTC for the purpose of making money from speculation (BTC as a traded commodity).

Long term way forward: Petition various agencies to initiate the rule-making process for actual rules regarding the treatment of virtual currencies (http://www.reginfo.gov/public/reginfo/Regmap/regmap.pdf). The most obvious candidates are the Department of Treasury, the IRS and/or FinCEN, but it would probably not be effective to simply ask these agencies for a rule. Rather, before petitioning for rule-making to be initiated, some groundwork is required: (1) what person or association of persons will petition for the rule; (2) clear statement of purpose of the proposed rule-making; (3) clear language of the proposed rule; (4) clear explanation of why the proposed rule would be in the public interest; (5) relevant information assembled in easily digestible form; and (6) a clear and compelling explanation of why the rule is necessary.

A decentralized way to move forward would be to announce that we need this information, and call upon the BTC community to start submitting it to a designated repository. A committee of curators of that repository could cull the best and most relevant information and assemble a draft proposal of the petition for rule-making. The proposal would be announced for an additional comment period before the community approves the petition in its final form. The committee of curators would then submit the petition to the agency or agencies.

Thoughts?

bbeagle
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April 08, 2014, 04:01:41 PM
 #284

They don't really don't care about your bitcoins and your wallet on your computer.

Now that I highly, highly doubt.

If you guys are thinking you're "safe" as long as you never convert between fiat and btc, you are being naive.

Except for mining, converting btc to fiat is the only way you get taxed.

If you're sitting on 1,000 btc that you mined back in 2010, when btc were worth pennies, that's practically nothing in taxes. You only owed what it's value was when you mined it in 2010. You don't owe ANYTHING on the profit you have made until you sell it. Because, technically, it's all just a paper profit, and is not realized as 'real' profit until you actually sell.

You can keep buying more, or sit on your btc, there are NO tax consequences. Once you cash them in, or buy something with them, this is the only way the IRS finds out about them, and THIS is when you owe taxes.

For example, you dig a hole in your yard and find gold. You don't tell the IRS about it. No problem. Once you trade that gold for a car and don't report it, the IRS will be all over you. And it's not just a 1.7% chance of being audited if a red flag like that is noticed on your return - it's MUCH larger.

dogechode
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April 08, 2014, 04:51:37 PM
 #285

bbeagle, what's your point? I don't think anyone has any interest in just holding btc indefinitely for the sake of bragging about how big their e-penis is on account of their rapidly growing bitcoin wallet. I'm pretty sure they want to spend it - or convert it to fiat. If you don't ever want to convert it or spend it then yeah by all means, wonderful...Huh
Elerntta
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April 09, 2014, 11:21:10 AM
 #286

reusing an earlier post from a different thread:

The issue is one of administrative law, and I'm not sure how to reconcile the different treatment by two executive branch agencies. Both the IRS and FinCEN's definitions were promulgated in the form of a guidance document, which has no binding legal effect. Guidance documents are neither rules (which would require the agencies to comport with the rule-making requirements enumerated in the Administrative Procedures Act, 5 U.S.C. §§ 551-559), nor are they adjudications the substance of which can be appealed and reviewed by federal courts.

I see two ways forward, one short term and one long term:

Short term way forward: The IRS guidance document requests "comments from the public regarding other types or aspects of virtual currency transactions that should be addressed in future guidance." You can mail your comments to:

Internal Revenue Service
Attn: CC:PA:LPD:PR (Notice 2014-21)
Room 5203
P.O. Box 7604
Ben Franklin Station
Washington, D.C. 20044

I think taxing virtual currencies as property ignores the fact that they are indeed designed to be used as a medium of exchange. The IRS's definition treats BTC as property (and taxing according to capital gains), which means they perceive BTC as something that is purchased to appreciate in value. This perception is probably driven in part by how much BTC can fluctuate relative to fiat and the fact that some people are purchasing and selling for purely speculative purposes: the IRS wants to tax realized gains as income. The most significant problem with this guidance is that it discourages the use of BTC as a medium of exchange by imposing a substantial record keeping burden. It would be helpful if future guidance distinguished between the manner in which BTC was used, and in particular differentiating between using BTC to buy and sell goods and services (BTC as a medium of exchange) from purchasing and selling BTC for the purpose of making money from speculation (BTC as a traded commodity).

Long term way forward: Petition various agencies to initiate the rule-making process for actual rules regarding the treatment of virtual currencies (http://www.reginfo.gov/public/reginfo/Regmap/regmap.pdf). The most obvious candidates are the Department of Treasury, the IRS and/or FinCEN, but it would probably not be effective to simply ask these agencies for a rule. Rather, before petitioning for rule-making to be initiated, some groundwork is required: (1) what person or association of persons will petition for the rule; (2) clear statement of purpose of the proposed rule-making; (3) clear language of the proposed rule; (4) clear explanation of why the proposed rule would be in the public interest; (5) relevant information assembled in easily digestible form; and (6) a clear and compelling explanation of why the rule is necessary.

A decentralized way to move forward would be to announce that we need this information, and call upon the BTC community to start submitting it to a designated repository. A committee of curators of that repository could cull the best and most relevant information and assemble a draft proposal of the petition for rule-making. The proposal would be announced for an additional comment period before the community approves the petition in its final form. The committee of curators would then submit the petition to the agency or agencies.

Thoughts?

 I agree that it really discourages the use of btc! But as for long term - you 've mentioned good points as there is no agency that has quite enough knowledges about btc to create the rules

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Polycoin
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May 20, 2014, 03:03:16 PM
 #287

Bitcoin is indeed not a currency.

Polycoin Troopers, Assemble!
LostDutchman
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May 20, 2014, 06:23:58 PM
 #288

Bitcoin is indeed not a currency.

It could certanly be termed a method of holding and transferring value or wealth though.

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