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Author Topic: $18 trillion in debt. $18 trillion is a lot of money...  (Read 1669 times)
OROBTC
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March 23, 2015, 08:03:47 PM
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...

 Sad

We have $18 trillion (in "official national debt", and ~$200 trillion by other measures), and yet our country has more resentment and unhappiness that at any time I can remember.

What did we get for our money?  I argue that we have LESS than if we had NO DEBT whatsoever.

We continue to have poverty (probably getting worse).  We continue to have inequality (beyond question worse).  We are subjected to huge scams like "global warming" (aka "climate change", etc.) and ObamaCare that mostly move money (via taxes and regulation) from the productive to cronies and scammers...

$18 trillion and we are worse off for it.  And we are further than ever from having a country where everyone is wealthy.  $18 trillion works out to some $55,000 for every man, woman and child in the USA...  $55,000 (per person) is more than the net worth of at least 50% of our country.

Almost makes you want to avoid getting plucked anymore.  Almost makes you want to Go Galt...

Got (other = even more) debt?  

Got BTC?  Got Au?



/rant
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March 23, 2015, 08:11:49 PM
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The question that i first asked when i found out we owe so much, who do we owe the $18 trillion?

I think i am right saying we owe it to the private bank so called 'Federal Reserve' and that is the biggest scam of all, they print money then they loan it to the government at interest lol It is the trap that we have been born into and i really can't see a way out from it now, they hold to much power.

The money has just extended the gap between the haves and the have nots, it is a massive gap strangling the middle class into debt and destroying them soon it will be just the rich and the poor, the masters and the servants or i could have just watched to much tv  Shocked

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March 23, 2015, 09:49:19 PM
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Well the number is surprising. However you can only expect it to rise even further. I'm not really sure. This money will probably not going to ever get repaid. Where is it coming from? Is there no maximum in how much dept someone can have?

We are subjected to huge scams like "global warming" (aka "climate change", etc.)
Wait what? You're saying that there is no global warming? This seems like another conspiracy theory.

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Razick
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March 23, 2015, 09:53:03 PM
 #4

The question that i first asked when i found out we owe so much, who do we owe the $18 trillion?

I think i am right saying we owe it to the private bank so called 'Federal Reserve' and that is the biggest scam of all, they print money then they loan it to the government at interest lol It is the trap that we have been born into and i really can't see a way out from it now, they hold to much power.

The money has just extended the gap between the haves and the have nots, it is a massive gap strangling the middle class into debt and destroying them soon it will be just the rich and the poor, the masters and the servants or i could have just watched to much tv  Shocked

Well, the one bit of good news is that most of the U.S. national debt is owed to U.S. citizens (and their companies) who hold government bonds.

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March 23, 2015, 10:05:01 PM
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The $200 trillion figure is that of our unfunded liabilities for entitlements like Social Security and Medicare (and medicaid, and disability). It is most likely that these entitlements will be 'reformed' so that the government does not actually need to pay this amount - the amount paid will be less then the amount they have received in taxes.

Deficit spending is sometimes necessary, for example in times of war, the government needs to spend massive amounts of money and most wars cannot be funded with immediate tax revenue (the annual costs of the world wars were above the total tax receipts so taxes would have had to more then double in order to pay for wars as 'we go'). Also as long as the economy were to continue to grow, over the long term at a faster pace then then national debt were to rise then national debt would shrink as a percentage of the total economy which would not be an issue.

A good amount of the debt is from wartime spending as mentioned above. More recent sources of the massive amounts of the debt are from "stimulus spending" where the government simply spends $500,000 for each ~$40,000 new job that it creates (this is no joke)

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March 23, 2015, 10:07:19 PM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

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March 23, 2015, 10:50:43 PM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

Everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, it's called synchronization. Banks have been operating for centuries at far lower reserve rates. There have been banking collapses but no dollar collapses during that time. Between higher reserve requirements and the FDIC, a bank run on the scale of the one that caused the Great Depression is unlikely.

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March 23, 2015, 10:56:45 PM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

Everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, it's called synchronization. Banks have been operating for centuries at far lower reserve rates. There have been banking collapses but no dollar collapses during that time. Between higher reserve requirements and the FDIC, a bank run on the scale of the one that caused the Great Depression is unlikely.
Yes of course everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, but if they did the bank would not be able to pay them all out and that is a fact. I think that something soon in the next 10 years will have some big change with the government, maybe a large default or a massive change.

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March 23, 2015, 11:10:42 PM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

Everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, it's called synchronization. Banks have been operating for centuries at far lower reserve rates. There have been banking collapses but no dollar collapses during that time. Between higher reserve requirements and the FDIC, a bank run on the scale of the one that caused the Great Depression is unlikely.
Yes of course everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, but if they did the bank would not be able to pay them all out and that is a fact. I think that something soon in the next 10 years will have some big change with the government, maybe a large default or a massive change.

The fact that banks do not hold all deposits on hand is a known fact, and something you explicitly agree to when making a deposit. Half this forum seems to miss the fact that banks are private businesses with which you voluntarily deposit money. They even pay you to do it.

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March 23, 2015, 11:16:52 PM
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Quote
$223.3 trillion: The total indebtedness of the world, including all parts of the public and private sectors, amounting to 313% of global gross domestic product. Advanced economies tend to draw attention for their debt at the government and household levels.

[Suspicious link removed]j.com/economics/2013/05/11/number-of-the-week-total-world-debt-load-at-313-of-gdp/

Maybe we owe all this money to our reptilian overlords from Mars...

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March 24, 2015, 12:08:42 AM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

Everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, it's called synchronization. Banks have been operating for centuries at far lower reserve rates. There have been banking collapses but no dollar collapses during that time. Between higher reserve requirements and the FDIC, a bank run on the scale of the one that caused the Great Depression is unlikely.
Yes of course everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, but if they did the bank would not be able to pay them all out and that is a fact. I think that something soon in the next 10 years will have some big change with the government, maybe a large default or a massive change.

The fact that banks do not hold all deposits on hand is a known fact, and something you explicitly agree to when making a deposit. Half this forum seems to miss the fact that banks are private businesses with which you voluntarily deposit money. They even pay you to do it.
Yeah what happened in spain recently last week should be a reminder of how banks aren't any safer than your average Bitcoin exchange, but the diferenec is we can be our own banks with Bitcoin, we have that options, this is why it's SO obvious to me and anyone with half a brain for a broad vision of were we are at today and were we are headed to, of how Bitcoin is going to play a main role in the future and how the price is insanely cheap today.
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March 24, 2015, 02:25:23 AM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

Everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, it's called synchronization. Banks have been operating for centuries at far lower reserve rates. There have been banking collapses but no dollar collapses during that time. Between higher reserve requirements and the FDIC, a bank run on the scale of the one that caused the Great Depression is unlikely.
Yes of course everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, but if they did the bank would not be able to pay them all out and that is a fact. I think that something soon in the next 10 years will have some big change with the government, maybe a large default or a massive change.

The fact that banks do not hold all deposits on hand is a known fact, and something you explicitly agree to when making a deposit. Half this forum seems to miss the fact that banks are private businesses with which you voluntarily deposit money. They even pay you to do it.
Well these days you are pretty much forced in using a bank (good luck in getting your salary in cash), and its almost involuntary. Also when I signed up for my bank account I never saw anything saying they didn't hold all the deposits on hand.

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March 24, 2015, 02:41:59 AM
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It does not matter, as long as government can borrow trillions of money from FED and pay back the debt, and as long as the dollar they borrow have same acceptance as previous dollar

The only thing could crash all these is the dollar's acceptance, if dollar is still accepted anywhere, then this game could continue. And what is going to prevent dollar from being accepted everywhere?

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March 24, 2015, 03:33:47 AM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

I've been thinking that the USD would collapse for several years, but in order for that to happen, there will need to be a replacement currency, so that the current USD transactions could be done by another means.

With all the stimulus/QE and artificially low rates, I thought that the dollar would become devalued.  I'm Canadian, so aside from investing in US markets and when traveling, I don't really "need" USD.  In the past ~2.5 years, the USD has gained about 30% on the Canadian dollar.  Of all the world currencies, it still seems to be the #1 pick regardless of the debt level, expansionary monetary policy and habitually low rates.
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March 24, 2015, 03:35:57 AM
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I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

I've been thinking that the USD would collapse for several years, but in order for that to happen, there will need to be a replacement currency, so that the current USD transactions could be done by another means.

With all the stimulus/QE and artificially low rates, I thought that the dollar would become devalued.  I'm Canadian, so aside from investing in US markets and when traveling, I don't really "need" USD.  In the past ~2.5 years, the USD has gained about 30% on the Canadian dollar.  Of all the world currencies, it still seems to be the #1 pick regardless of the debt level, expansionary monetary policy and habitually low rates.
Gold backed man. I think that the next current where the USD will lead to will have to be gold backed. Something the government can't just print out of thin air and cause inflation. But I think it might be a while until we see something like this happen.

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March 24, 2015, 03:37:26 AM
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It does not matter, as long as government can borrow trillions of money from FED and pay back the debt, and as long as the dollar they borrow have same acceptance as previous dollar

The only thing could crash all these is the dollar's acceptance, if dollar is still accepted anywhere, then this game could continue. And what is going to prevent dollar from being accepted everywhere?

Loss of faith in the dollar could lead it to its collapse. The scenario with the highest possibility of occurring is a massive bail-in sometime in the next 10 years or hyperinflation resulting from USD held by foreigners returning the US market.

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March 24, 2015, 03:39:24 AM
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It does not matter, as long as government can borrow trillions of money from FED and pay back the debt, and as long as the dollar they borrow have same acceptance as previous dollar

The only thing could crash all these is the dollar's acceptance, if dollar is still accepted anywhere, then this game could continue. And what is going to prevent dollar from being accepted everywhere?

Loss of faith in the dollar could lead it to its collapse. The scenario with the highest possibility of occurring is a massive bail-in sometime in the next 10 years or hyperinflation resulting from USD held by foreigners returning the US market.
I agree with you in the 10 year thing. I swear that in the next 10 years, SOMETHING will happen with the USD, will be replaced or just crash. I can't just "lose faith" in a dollar like I "lose faith" in an altcoin because it is the only way to collect salary, pay mortages, your life is tied to USD

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March 24, 2015, 03:45:32 AM
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...

Mentioned above is the idea that the debt might not / will not be paid back ("we owe it to ourselves").  Indeed the $18 trillion in US national government debt will never be paid back.  It is essentially impossible at this point without defaults, or inflation or MASSIVE new borrowing.  And the unfunded liabilities (whatever gigantic figures you accept) just make re-payment even less likely.  Yet they keep kicking the can down the road.

Re gold, while I think gold is a fabulous investment as a part of most portfolios (say 5% - 10% of net wealth), I am against a "gold standard", backing a currency fixed to gold.  Over time, that has always failed.  Too much fraud usually undoes such a currency.

LaudaM

I guess Europe must have had a warm winter, that was not so in most of the USA.  It is NOT "scientific consensus" that "global warming" is even real...  (By the way, science does NOT work by "consensus", science works by testing hypotheses for truth)  If global warming actually IS happening, note that volcanoes spew more greenhouse gases than vehicles and industry.  Oh, and please try telling China (No. 1 greenhouse gas emitters) to stop that.  Try, see how that works!

The sea level where I live (I can look out the window and SEE the ocean) has not risen here in the 15-odd years I have lived here.  Not a mm.  If it had risen a millimeter in Europe (wherever), it would have risen here too.
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March 24, 2015, 03:59:54 AM
 #19

I think that soon the dollar will collapse. Call me crazy but the debt is growing to a massive size and banks only actually own less than 10% of what they hold. If everyone withdraws at the same time, banks would not be able to pay them out and therefore would have to file bankrupts and close, even if they say they have 10 billion dollars, they don't actually have that much. its called fractional reserve banking.

Everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, it's called synchronization. Banks have been operating for centuries at far lower reserve rates. There have been banking collapses but no dollar collapses during that time. Between higher reserve requirements and the FDIC, a bank run on the scale of the one that caused the Great Depression is unlikely.
Yes of course everyone doesn't withdraw at the same time, but if they did the bank would not be able to pay them all out and that is a fact. I think that something soon in the next 10 years will have some big change with the government, maybe a large default or a massive change.

The fact that banks do not hold all deposits on hand is a known fact, and something you explicitly agree to when making a deposit. Half this forum seems to miss the fact that banks are private businesses with which you voluntarily deposit money. They even pay you to do it.
Well these days you are pretty much forced in using a bank (good luck in getting your salary in cash), and its almost involuntary. Also when I signed up for my bank account I never saw anything saying they didn't hold all the deposits on hand.

It's an implied contract based on a well known fact, much like the implied contract that you agree to when grocery shopping: These items are not free, you agree to give me the amount of money indicated on the price tag, plus tax, for each item with which you exit the store.

I bet you somewhere in the terms there is a notice about fractional reserve or something though.


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March 24, 2015, 04:01:42 AM
 #20

Haha I am not going to read through all my bank terms again but I doubt they have a disclaimer about fractional reserve banking, like "oh yea and   if you try to withdraw your money at the same time as everyone else then we can't give you your money, sorry". But yea if we sign a contract actually saying this then they can do it as they want.

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