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Author Topic: Does anyone know what happened to LargeCoin?  (Read 999 times)
Lorenzo (OP)
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March 25, 2015, 01:44:38 AM
 #1

I've been reading some older threads about the very early history of ASIC mining and I can see that a company called LargeCoin was at one point, one of the most promising companies out there and perhaps the biggest rival to Butterfly Labs back then.

Quote from: LargeCoin
LargeCoin is developing a Bitcoin computation ASIC to reduce the power consumption required to participate in Bitcoin mining. We expect our hardware to be available in the fourth quarter of 2011, and models will be made available at a price that works for miners of all sizes - from hobbyists to hedge funds. We are keeping some of the details close to our chest at the moment, but encourage you to fill in the form below if you would like to receive updates as our development progresses.

Considering that the first ASICs for Bitcoin mining were released in early 2013 and FPGAs weren't even widespread back in 2011, the idea of creating an ASIC in 2011 seems astonishing. Their homepage is still online (link) but it looks like it hasn't been updated in years.

I can see that they were taking pre-orders in 2012 for an ASIC that was supposed to be capable of 20 GH/s but they seem to have faded out of existence by 2013.

Does anyone know what happened to them? Did their technology ever get past the planning stage? I'd be particularly interested in technical details and how their performance compared to FPGAs that were around back then too.
sorryforthat
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March 25, 2015, 02:28:35 AM
 #2

A handful were pre-ordered but they never took deposits.

From what I remember, a lot of what they had to offer was being surpassed by other companies(and fast). Butterfly labs at the time was working on a smaller miner that would hash nearly 60 Ghs (for only $1299) and they had proof of this unlike Largecoin.

$1299 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC at 60GH/s

Another major factor at a very large sum of $30k for only 20Gh/s would mean a very un-reasonable ROI at around 600 days or so. It was unfeasible for people who had multiple cards hashing at around 800Mh/s to invest in that kind of miner when they could easily pick up a few more cards. (This on top of cheaper and faster miners.)

Another major issues was the way that it mined. How it would rely on Largecoin infrastructure to make mining possible while others would allow you to do all the setting yourself. This made people like myself scared as how could we be 100% sure that my hashes wouldn't be redirected or hacked even.

Some other companies that were working on the same type Asics during the time.

Open Basic

Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC

Vladimir’s company

All and all I do believe they just fell by the waist side and became slightly overwhelmed by competition and even irrelevant in terms of price and hash.
Lorenzo (OP)
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March 25, 2015, 03:20:26 AM
 #3

A handful were pre-ordered but they never took deposits.

From what I remember, a lot of what they had to offer was being surpassed by other companies(and fast). Butterfly labs at the time was working on a smaller miner that would hash nearly 60 Ghs (for only $1299) and they had proof of this unlike Largecoin.

$1299 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC at 60GH/s

Well we all know how that went!

Quote
Another major factor at a very large sum of $30k for only 20Gh/s would mean a very un-reasonable ROI at around 600 days or so. It was unfeasible for people who had multiple cards hashing at around 800Mh/s to invest in that kind of miner when they could easily pick up a few more cards. (This on top of cheaper and faster miners.)

Ah, well that sounds insanely low then.

It's quite strange to see that a company which claimed to have the technical finesse to launch an ASIC in 2011 would fall behind the competition so quickly.

Quote
Another major issues was the way that it mined. How it would rely on Largecoin infrastructure to make mining possible while others would allow you to do all the setting yourself. This made people like myself scared as how could we be 100% sure that my hashes wouldn't be redirected or hacked even.

Didn't realize this part. What was the reason for this exactly? Seems like a very odd design choice.

Quote
Some other companies that were working on the same type Asics during the time.

Open Basic

Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC

Vladimir’s company

All and all I do believe they just fell by the waist side and became slightly overwhelmed by competition and even irrelevant in terms of price and hash.

BTCFPGA/bASIC seems to be another one.

It looks like BFL was really the only one out of those to not fail completely in the sense that they actually released and shipped a working miner. Avalon and ASICMiner were relatively unknown in 2012 and Bitmain didn't even exist at all but they went on to release the first ASICs in the following year while the companies that were considered the most promising in 2012 kind of fizzled out and disappeared. Very strange.
Gleb Gamow
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March 25, 2015, 03:53:30 AM
 #4

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ksimpson

Quote
Director

Untitled Bitcoin Company

2011 – December 2012 (1 year)

Explored the concept of creating a Bitcoin mining ASIC. We incorporated, lined up investment, but canceled the project because we just couldn't quite get enough funds across the line to make the chip. Too bad we missed out on a $1B opportunity, but it was too early in the Bitcoin cycle to make this idea happen.
sorryforthat
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March 25, 2015, 04:09:24 AM
 #5

A handful were pre-ordered but they never took deposits.

From what I remember, a lot of what they had to offer was being surpassed by other companies(and fast). Butterfly labs at the time was working on a smaller miner that would hash nearly 60 Ghs (for only $1299) and they had proof of this unlike Largecoin.

$1299 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC at 60GH/s


Well we all know how that went!

This was slightly before the craziness that is BFL. When things were more transparent. As you can see on their site, they actually had a great plan and even great buy back. It was all downhill after.

Quote
Quote
Another major factor at a very large sum of $30k for only 20Gh/s would mean a very un-reasonable ROI at around 600 days or so. It was unfeasible for people who had multiple cards hashing at around 800Mh/s to invest in that kind of miner when they could easily pick up a few more cards. (This on top of cheaper and faster miners.)

Ah, well that sounds insanely low then.

It's quite strange to see that a company which claimed to have the technical finesse to launch an ASIC in 2011 would fall behind the competition so quickly.

Very true. Mining with three video cards would net a easy 3.5 Gh/s and to pick up some others to make 20 Gh/s would save you a good 25k and to be honest this made up for the higher cost of mining.

Quote
Quote
Another major issues was the way that it mined. How it would rely on Largecoin infrastructure to make mining possible while others would allow you to do all the setting yourself. This made people like myself scared as how could we be 100% sure that my hashes wouldn't be redirected or hacked even.

Didn't realize this part. What was the reason for this exactly? Seems like a very odd design choice.

The lack of on board control panel like we see on current miners and the lack of connection to the computer. Making it connect to a online control panel hosted by them was their design. This was a feasible option and not that bad(at the time) if trust and hacking hadnt been such an issue and the idea that we could even check on things by not even being home sparked a lot of interest since people planned off or out of home mining.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ksimpson

Quote
Director

Untitled Bitcoin Company

2011 – December 2012 (1 year)

Explored the concept of creating a Bitcoin mining ASIC. We incorporated, lined up investment, but canceled the project because we just couldn't quite get enough funds across the line to make the chip. Too bad we missed out on a $1B opportunity, but it was too early in the Bitcoin cycle to make this idea happen.

30k is so much money to charge for a miner. They could have created a prototype and offered much more along the lines of proof for investment. They did in fact have pre-orders, so the price was inline with some people pocket books but they just never got charged for pre-order. Im not sure how much they were really trying to get out of it all, but the fact that the funds were not there seems a bit far fetched as the people with pre-order were to be required to pay some where in the amount of 5k deposit
Lorenzo (OP)
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March 25, 2015, 04:13:23 AM
 #6

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ksimpson

Quote
Director

Untitled Bitcoin Company

2011 – December 2012 (1 year)

Explored the concept of creating a Bitcoin mining ASIC. We incorporated, lined up investment, but canceled the project because we just couldn't quite get enough funds across the line to make the chip. Too bad we missed out on a $1B opportunity, but it was too early in the Bitcoin cycle to make this idea happen.

Ouch. Well I guess that explains it then. Seems to be a common theme for many of the early ASIC companies which folded because they couldn't get the necessary funds/deals/infrastructure.

Strangely though, I don't see that text anywhere on that page. Is it only visible if you have a LinkedIn account?
Lorenzo (OP)
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March 25, 2015, 04:33:03 AM
 #7

This was slightly before the craziness that is BFL. When things were more transparent. As you can see on their site, they actually had a great plan and even great buy back. It was all downhill after.

While they were certainly more reputable back then compared to today, it does still look like they had a few problems even back when they only made FPGAs:

Quote from: Coding In My Sleep
Now some time ago, Butterfly Labs (BFL), a well-known manufacturer of FPGA miners announced they were releasing an ASIC line. There are a lot of criticisms of BFL, some more valid than others, but let’s just say they’ve got a history of under-delivering on promises and horribly delayed shipping – to the point where many in the Bitcoin community doubt that a BFL ASIC is actually in the pipeline or if we’re all being scammed. For the purpose of this article, let’s assume we’re not being scammed, and BFL will deliver everything they’ve promised – here’s their intended lineup:...

...This device appears poised to compete with BFL’s BitForce Single SC unit. The new miners clock in at around $39.62 per GH/s compared to BFL’s $32.48, so BFL is still the cheaper option, but here are some considerations that might make the bASIC look a little more desireable:...

...BTCFPGA.com has a track record of over-delivering on promises, BFL has a track record of under-delivering. Enough said?

Source: http://codinginmysleep.com/non-bfl-asic/

Quote
The lack of on board control panel like we see on current miners and the lack of connection to the computer. Making it connect to a online control panel hosted by them was their design. This was a feasible option and not that bad(at the time) if trust and hacking hadnt been such an issue and the idea that we could even check on things by not even being home sparked a lot of interest since people planned off or out of home mining.

It would be OK and probably quite a useful feature if that setting was optional but to have the mining process connect directly to their servers and controlled by them without an option to host it yourself kind of goes against the principles of decentralization IMO.

EDIT: Just found the thread that you're talking about here where LargeCoin justifies the model. Seems that I'm not the only person who thinks that the idea wasn't so great:

Interesting solution you advertise here.

I'm asking like another poster did, why will the equipment be tied to your platform ? The whole idea of bitcoin is that it shall be decentralized. If you produce a lot of this equipment, and you sit with a central control (as I understand all clients can control it from the online web-page on your server), then the decentralization goes out the window.

Although I'm very sure you're working extremely hard with this, but a lot of us are freedom loving individuals that would like to be able to govern our own equipment. Why not make it possible for the users to administrate the system from his own computer, or though any interface. If you want it to be administered through a web-interface, then this could be integrated in the unit and need not have a remote central for it to be administered?

What guarantees are there except your words that once enough units are deployed that there will be a 51% attack on the network, either by you or somebody attacking the central platform (talk about juicy target).

I sincerely hope this does not come forward as too negative, but these are questions that we really need to ask. I wish you best of luck in the continued business endeavors.

And posted in response to the above:

I was about to post this, but you wrote a much better text Wink Mining with hardware that is tied to a central platform defeats the whole purpose of mining.

It does look like they listened to the feedback and considered making it optional though:

Both - most customers (we imagine) will prefer to control the system through a nice hosted UI. Others will configure their appliances to connect to a pool and contribute mining shares without any interaction with our control panel service. There will be a way to run the appliance completely independently - we hear you, and will make sure this option is available.

It seems to have been partly motivated by licensing issues too (i.e. as a type of DRM):

Quote
As I've written in various posts, after you receive the appliance, you can either connect it to the Internet, in which case it will self-register and obtain a license automatically when you pay the balance; or, you can leave it disconnected and install the license file manually. I think most customers will take the auto-registration route for convenience. After you have paid us and obtained the full license key, there is no need for the system to contact LargeCoin central again, and you will be able to stop this from happening without having any effect on mining.
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