Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 08:52:56 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Is there an incentive for pools to attack each other?  (Read 1408 times)
nazgulnarsil
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 05:20:13 PM
 #1

let's say that hypothetically there were 3 pools each with 25% of the total hashing power with the other 25% being independent miners or smaller pools.  If one of the pools goes out for a day doesn't everyone else get 25% more coins for that period?
1481403176
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481403176

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481403176
Reply with quote  #2

1481403176
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
ensign_lee
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 356


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 05:22:03 PM
 #2

No, it doesn't work that way. The difficulty does not adjust in real time.

I guess if you could DDOS ALL the other pools for long enough that the difficulty decreases, that would help?

But then the individual miners who make up the pool would simply switch to other pools or to mining for themselves, so the difficulty would still not change significantly
nazgulnarsil
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 05:24:01 PM
 #3

ah that's right.  the 10 day window buffers out any short term effects.  don't know why I forgot about that.  thanks!
Serge
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 05:39:35 PM
 #4

The more pool produces - more it makes. More users in a pool - pool produces more. $Bitcoins$
Difficulty irrelevant in this case - it effects bottom-line but doesn't level competitiveness

Incentive present.
Horkabork
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 140



View Profile
May 26, 2011, 05:44:25 PM
 #5

Yes that does happen. See what happens is, all the people involved in a pool chip in and buy what are called "pool sharks." The shark entities patrol internally until they are able to jump a competing pool. Then, the two groups of sharks fight, and the winner can usually grab a few bitcoins to take back to his pool before another shark is generated or the pool is economically "poisoned" to all sharks, enemy or ally.

However, deepbit moved on from sharks to A.P.E. programs, which are better for long-polling combat in the areas outside of pools. It takes longer for competing apes to find each other, but combat is more effective. Apes can jump into enemy pools to attack sharks, but not the inverse. However, apes cannot steal enemy bitcoins, with a few rare exceptions.

Where it gets really complicated is hash slinging. A pool can take some of their hashpower and direct it to another pool, thus confusing their miners. When your miner says "Result: hash rejected" it means that someone slung hashes into your work queue and you were fooled into doing worthless work. Right now, because I'm near the edge of the pool and thus get attacked by enemy hashes constantly, I have my own pool shark that is entirely supported by slung hashes, so it doesn't cost me anything until an ape attacks it. The evolutionary arms race has stepped up, recently, where brown hashes are slung instead of the typical rainbow tabled ones. Both are hash combinations, but hashbrowns are computationally "delicious" to sharks, which may be fooled into temporarily changing sides.

Entire papers have been written on the subject of bitcoin pool combat, so I won't go into the finer points except to say that the oneupmanship is progressing so quickly that, really, only the pool chiefs know the current state of interpool war technology, and they are dark, mysterious entities who we aren't allowed to name.

Me: 15gbWvpLPfbLJZBsL2u5gkBdL3BUXDbTuF
A goat: http://i52.tinypic.com/34pj4v6.jpg
FreeMoney
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


Strength in numbers


View Profile WWW
May 26, 2011, 05:50:38 PM
 #6

Shutting a pool down would keep difficulty low longer, there is an incentive.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
ensign_lee
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 356


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 05:53:43 PM
 #7

Shutting a pool down would keep difficulty low longer, there is an incentive.

And what's to keep the individual miners in that pool from simply switching to another pool. Or mining for themselves? The hashes/sec are still going to be present for the most part
FreeMoney
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


Strength in numbers


View Profile WWW
May 26, 2011, 05:57:36 PM
 #8

Shutting a pool down would keep difficulty low longer, there is an incentive.

And what's to keep the individual miners in that pool from simply switching to another pool. Or mining for themselves? The hashes/sec are still going to be present for the most part

Uh, yeah. n/m.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
lizthegrey
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 06:04:28 PM
 #9

Yes, there is an incentive. Given that miners will switch to other pools if one pool becomes flaky, it results in other pools getting more miners, and for pools that charge fees, it means more profits for the pool organizer since more blocks will be generated by that pool.
2_Thumbs_Up
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 323


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 06:39:02 PM
 #10

Yes, there is an incentive. Given that miners will switch to other pools if one pool becomes flaky, it results in other pools getting more miners, and for pools that charge fees, it means more profits for the pool organizer since more blocks will be generated by that pool.
And that incentive is the same for every type of business. And while I'm sure that there probably exist some firms that partake in vandalizing their competitor's businesses, it isn't really that common.
lizthegrey
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
May 26, 2011, 06:49:02 PM
 #11

Yes, there is an incentive. Given that miners will switch to other pools if one pool becomes flaky, it results in other pools getting more miners, and for pools that charge fees, it means more profits for the pool organizer since more blocks will be generated by that pool.
And that incentive is the same for every type of business. And while I'm sure that there probably exist some firms that partake in vandalizing their competitor's businesses, it isn't really that common.
Totally with you Smiley - vandalizing competitors has a very large disincentive if caught which far outweighs the incentive. But the OP asked if an incentive existed, and the answer is yes, there is that "incentive".
cuddlefish
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126



View Profile
May 26, 2011, 10:10:38 PM
 #12

Yes that does happen. See what happens is, all the people involved in a pool chip in and buy what are called "pool sharks." The shark entities patrol internally until they are able to jump a competing pool. Then, the two groups of sharks fight, and the winner can usually grab a few bitcoins to take back to his pool before another shark is generated or the pool is economically "poisoned" to all sharks, enemy or ally.

However, deepbit moved on from sharks to A.P.E. programs, which are better for long-polling combat in the areas outside of pools. It takes longer for competing apes to find each other, but combat is more effective. Apes can jump into enemy pools to attack sharks, but not the inverse. However, apes cannot steal enemy bitcoins, with a few rare exceptions.

Where it gets really complicated is hash slinging. A pool can take some of their hashpower and direct it to another pool, thus confusing their miners. When your miner says "Result: hash rejected" it means that someone slung hashes into your work queue and you were fooled into doing worthless work. Right now, because I'm near the edge of the pool and thus get attacked by enemy hashes constantly, I have my own pool shark that is entirely supported by slung hashes, so it doesn't cost me anything until an ape attacks it. The evolutionary arms race has stepped up, recently, where brown hashes are slung instead of the typical rainbow tabled ones. Both are hash combinations, but hashbrowns are computationally "delicious" to sharks, which may be fooled into temporarily changing sides.

Entire papers have been written on the subject of bitcoin pool combat, so I won't go into the finer points except to say that the oneupmanship is progressing so quickly that, really, only the pool chiefs know the current state of interpool war technology, and they are dark, mysterious entities who we aren't allowed to name.


Post your goddamn bitcoin address. You win this thread.

TigolBitteez
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 15


View Profile
May 27, 2011, 12:39:03 AM
 #13



Entire papers have been written on the subject of bitcoin pool combat, so I won't go into the finer points except to say that the oneupmanship is progressing so quickly that, really, only the pool chiefs know the current state of interpool war technology, and they are dark, mysterious entities who we aren't allowed to name.

Where do I sign up to be a chief? F'n hilarious. I'll send you a bitcoin.

And yes hash browns are delicious computationally and "really."
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!