Reasons Bitcoin does not replace Fiat (today March 2015)

[DieJohnny]

I do not think Bitcoin replaces Fiat today for these reasons:

1. Not trusted. Simply put Bitcoin has value in the market place just not with any of the vendors or people i want to do business with. My local online classifieds returns 9 ads that mention Bitcoin, out of about 100,000 new ads a month. 9. Two years ago it was 15 hits, so trending to zero???
2. Not portable. Setting up my phone wallet is scary as hell and most certainly not close to mainstream yet.
3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.
4. Not scalable. If I solved 1-3 above, the network would fall on its face.
5. Not anonymous. Not a huge deal but nobody is tracking what I buy at garage sales today if I use the good 'ol dollar. Imagine me buying crap from a guy that turns out to be thief and a drug dealer. Nice eternal paper trail i have left behind.

I am long Bitcoin, but right now very long. I put this list together thinking about how far we are from true mass adoption. My answer.... we are a long, long way out. It really is all about the marriage of software and hardware.... Very complicated problems that will take years and years to iron out. Every mistake leading to losses of millions in stolen coins. This ecosystem is a brutal teacher, if your solution isn't perfect you will lose everything and so will everyone that trusts you.

I think it will take 10-20 years of software improvements to solve our current problems, and in the mean time.... I think the price will go lower. Maybe even for years.

[Amph]

fiat isn't better either, so why i shouldn't choose bitcoin right now, if fiat is worse?

-bank are not trustable at all, they can lose your money and come up with different excuse everytime
-same risk to lose your debit card as your phone here, so on par
-i could agree on this, but still faster then sepa, not faster then paying with credit card but whatever..., unless we don't count any confirmations
-that's because we are still in beta, i'm sure more tech will come up to improve scalability
-fiat is even worse here on anon, at leats bitcoin can be semi-anon, if you like how to use it

bitcoin isn't completed yet, people always tend to forget this particular...

[DieJohnny]

fiat isn't better either, so why i shouldn't choose bitcoin right now, if fiat is worse?

-bank are not trustable at all, they can lose your money and come up with different excuse everytime
-same risk to lose your debit card as your phone here, so on par
-i could agree on this, but still faster then sepa, not faster then paying with credit card but whatever..., unless we don't count any confirmations
-that's because we are still in beta, i'm sure more tech will come up to improve scalability
-fiat is even worse here on anon, at leats bitcoin ca be semi-anon, if you like how to use it

bitcoin isn't completed yet, people always tend to forget this particular...

I do trust my bank, probably shouldn't.... but in USA, if you are not a criminal your money feels safe to me
I don't really care if i lose my debit card, it has a simple pin to protect me long enough to stop withdrawals, i have never lost money on a debit card, i do worry about using my credit card
Well I agree we are in beta, which is really the point of my post, early early beta
fiat is totally anonymous in person to person transactions, and I can spend 5k or less person to person and not care one whit, especially if whatever i am buying has not official provenance like a title, or registration

[redsn0w]

fiat isn't better either, so why i shouldn't choose bitcoin right now, if fiat is worse?

-bank are not trustable at all, they can lose your money and come up with different excuse everytime
-same risk to lose your debit card as your phone here, so on par
-i could agree on this, but still faster then sepa, not faster then paying with credit card but whatever..., unless we don't count any confirmations
-that's because we are still in beta, i'm sure more tech will come up to improve scalability
-fiat is even worse here on anon, at leats bitcoin ca be semi-anon, if you like how to use it

bitcoin isn't completed yet, people always tend to forget this particular...

I do trust my bank, probably shouldn't.... but in USA, if you are not a criminal your money feels safe to me
I don't really care if i lose my debit card, it has a simple pin to protect me long enough to stop withdrawals, i have never lost money on a debit card, i do worry about using my credit card
Well I agree we are in beta, which is really the point of my post, early early beta
fiat is totally anonymous in person to person transactions, and I can spend 5k or less person to person and not care one whit, especially if whatever i am buying has not official provenance like a title, or registration

This is why 'decentralization' is better than centralization.... be your own bank and remember that 1 btc = 1 btc . I don't trust any bank instead I trust the bitcoin blockchain (pure mathematic). Can I ask you one thing : do you trust one centralized entity that can print money how many times they want? Or do you trust rigid math rules (vires in numeris)?

[Ibian]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

[NotHatinJustTrollin]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

[abyrnes81]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations are not secure.

But a bitcoin transaction is "more" instant than a credit card or bank account transaction, isn't it? I think you know that you can chargeback a transaction made by a credit or debit card until 90 days after sent it?

[Ibian]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

Challenge accepted.

Send whatever amount you feel willing to bet on you being right to the following address and then reverse it. Show us how it's done. For that matter, anyone else who feels like giving it a go.

1hcuqVjbHbUujuvtt1iDZf2aRTu2LYSE6

[kwukduck]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

Double spending still takes considerable eff and money to pull off. People are not going to double spend on small amounts. I assume you can wait for a few confirmations when you're buying a car or anything of considerable value...

[1Referee]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

Double spending still takes considerable eff and money to pull off. People are not going to double spend on small amounts. I assume you can wait for a few confirmations when you're buying a car or anything of considerable value...

Double spending is a problem yes. I agree. But you can actually see if the person you are dealing with is attempting to double spend.

Blockchain is transparent, it would cost you less than a minute to actually spot a double spend attempt.

Less experienced Bitcoiners will most likely be a victim as they don't seem to know how things work. Same for stores accepting Bitcoin without confirmations.

In order to avoid problems when dealing with large transactions it's better to wait for at least 6 confirmations. Better safe than sorry.

[redsn0w]

...snip...
I am long Bitcoin, but right now very long. I put this list together thinking about how far we are from true mass adoption. My answer.... we are a long, long way out. It really is all about the marriage of software and hardware.... Very complicated problems that will take years and years to iron out. Every mistake leading to losses of millions in stolen coins. This ecosystem is a brutal teacher, if your solution isn't perfect you will lose everything and so will everyone that trusts you.
...snip...

If I can add another thing, I am sure in the next 2-5 years bitcoin will be a valid and alternative way to send money without the use of an high fee and obviously the freedom to "manage" our personal richness. For example, send money to our relatives in another country... it will be more faster and with an ridiculous fee (just a few cents, 0.03 $). Do you know how much WU, moneyGram or other money transmitter take for send 100 € ... they take 2.90 € for send only 100 euros  ; and you are saying bitcoin will not replace FIAT value.


This is was my personal opinion. Thanks for the attention.

[NotHatinJustTrollin]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

Challenge accepted.

Send whatever amount you feel willing to bet on you being right to the following address and then reverse it. Show us how it's done. For that matter, anyone else who feels like giving it a go.

1hcuqVjbHbUujuvtt1iDZf2aRTu2LYSE6

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/239bj1/doublespending_unconfirmed_transactions_is_a_lot/

[Amph]

fiat isn't better either, so why i shouldn't choose bitcoin right now, if fiat is worse?

-bank are not trustable at all, they can lose your money and come up with different excuse everytime
-same risk to lose your debit card as your phone here, so on par
-i could agree on this, but still faster then sepa, not faster then paying with credit card but whatever..., unless we don't count any confirmations
-that's because we are still in beta, i'm sure more tech will come up to improve scalability
-fiat is even worse here on anon, at leats bitcoin ca be semi-anon, if you like how to use it

bitcoin isn't completed yet, people always tend to forget this particular...

I do trust my bank, probably shouldn't.... but in USA, if you are not a criminal your money feels safe to me
I don't really care if i lose my debit card, it has a simple pin to protect me long enough to stop withdrawals, i have never lost money on a debit card, i do worry about using my credit card
Well I agree we are in beta, which is really the point of my post, early early beta
fiat is totally anonymous in person to person transactions, and I can spend 5k or less person to person and not care one whit, especially if whatever i am buying has not official provenance like a title, or registration

how is fiat totally anon face to face? even if you use cash(unless you found those cash on the street lol) you need to withdrawal them first from atm, and any withdrawal like that is monitored

[twiifm]

fiat isn't better either, so why i shouldn't choose bitcoin right now, if fiat is worse?

-bank are not trustable at all, they can lose your money and come up with different excuse everytime
-same risk to lose your debit card as your phone here, so on par
-i could agree on this, but still faster then sepa, not faster then paying with credit card but whatever..., unless we don't count any confirmations
-that's because we are still in beta, i'm sure more tech will come up to improve scalability
-fiat is even worse here on anon, at leats bitcoin ca be semi-anon, if you like how to use it

bitcoin isn't completed yet, people always tend to forget this particular...

I do trust my bank, probably shouldn't.... but in USA, if you are not a criminal your money feels safe to me
I don't really care if i lose my debit card, it has a simple pin to protect me long enough to stop withdrawals, i have never lost money on a debit card, i do worry about using my credit card
Well I agree we are in beta, which is really the point of my post, early early beta
fiat is totally anonymous in person to person transactions, and I can spend 5k or less person to person and not care one whit, especially if whatever i am buying has not official provenance like a title, or registration

how is fiat totally anon face to face? even if you use cash(unless you found those cash on the street lol) you need to withdrawal them first from atm, and any withdrawal like that is monitored

If you withdraw $100 and bought a bundle of dope.  Nobody knows what you spent it on

[Amph]

fiat isn't better either, so why i shouldn't choose bitcoin right now, if fiat is worse?

-bank are not trustable at all, they can lose your money and come up with different excuse everytime
-same risk to lose your debit card as your phone here, so on par
-i could agree on this, but still faster then sepa, not faster then paying with credit card but whatever..., unless we don't count any confirmations
-that's because we are still in beta, i'm sure more tech will come up to improve scalability
-fiat is even worse here on anon, at leats bitcoin ca be semi-anon, if you like how to use it

bitcoin isn't completed yet, people always tend to forget this particular...

I do trust my bank, probably shouldn't.... but in USA, if you are not a criminal your money feels safe to me
I don't really care if i lose my debit card, it has a simple pin to protect me long enough to stop withdrawals, i have never lost money on a debit card, i do worry about using my credit card
Well I agree we are in beta, which is really the point of my post, early early beta
fiat is totally anonymous in person to person transactions, and I can spend 5k or less person to person and not care one whit, especially if whatever i am buying has not official provenance like a title, or registration

how is fiat totally anon face to face? even if you use cash(unless you found those cash on the street lol) you need to withdrawal them first from atm, and any withdrawal like that is monitored

If you withdraw $100 and bought a bundle of dope.  Nobody knows what you spent it on

IRS knows... that's because you spent a low amount, and they don't care about those amount, but they actually know about it

[twiifm]

fiat isn't better either, so why i shouldn't choose bitcoin right now, if fiat is worse?

-bank are not trustable at all, they can lose your money and come up with different excuse everytime
-same risk to lose your debit card as your phone here, so on par
-i could agree on this, but still faster then sepa, not faster then paying with credit card but whatever..., unless we don't count any confirmations
-that's because we are still in beta, i'm sure more tech will come up to improve scalability
-fiat is even worse here on anon, at leats bitcoin ca be semi-anon, if you like how to use it

bitcoin isn't completed yet, people always tend to forget this particular...

I do trust my bank, probably shouldn't.... but in USA, if you are not a criminal your money feels safe to me
I don't really care if i lose my debit card, it has a simple pin to protect me long enough to stop withdrawals, i have never lost money on a debit card, i do worry about using my credit card
Well I agree we are in beta, which is really the point of my post, early early beta
fiat is totally anonymous in person to person transactions, and I can spend 5k or less person to person and not care one whit, especially if whatever i am buying has not official provenance like a title, or registration

how is fiat totally anon face to face? even if you use cash(unless you found those cash on the street lol) you need to withdrawal them first from atm, and any withdrawal like that is monitored

If you withdraw $100 and bought a bundle of dope.  Nobody knows what you spent it on

IRS that's because you spent a low amount, and they don't care about those amount, but they actually know about it

Its still anonymous

[criptix]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

Challenge accepted.

Send whatever amount you feel willing to bet on you being right to the following address and then reverse it. Show us how it's done. For that matter, anyone else who feels like giving it a go.

1hcuqVjbHbUujuvtt1iDZf2aRTu2LYSE6

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/239bj1/doublespending_unconfirmed_transactions_is_a_lot/

Please google mike hearns paper and or peter todd about replace by fee.
Chances seem to be 3 out of 300 succeed in double spending.
cost for the attacker is huge and of course it only works for 0 conf

[cypherdoc]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

Challenge accepted.

Send whatever amount you feel willing to bet on you being right to the following address and then reverse it. Show us how it's done. For that matter, anyone else who feels like giving it a go.

1hcuqVjbHbUujuvtt1iDZf2aRTu2LYSE6

don't embarrass the poor sucker

[NotHatinJustTrollin]

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

You have been around long enough to know this is not true. The transfer is instant. Confirmations just make it even more secure.

Bullshit.

0 confirmations txs are not secure.

Challenge accepted.

Send whatever amount you feel willing to bet on you being right to the following address and then reverse it. Show us how it's done. For that matter, anyone else who feels like giving it a go.

1hcuqVjbHbUujuvtt1iDZf2aRTu2LYSE6

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/239bj1/doublespending_unconfirmed_transactions_is_a_lot/

Please google mike hearns paper and or peter todd about replace by fee.
Chances seem to be 3 out of 300 succeed in double spending.
cost for the attacker is huge and of course it only works for 0 conf

I'm perfectly aware of the ongoing debate with mike hearn for the replace by fee patch. Still, he replied to him and his arguments still stand. Of course you are not gonna agree with him, a priori.


@doc: you sound butthurt. Did I hit a nerve?

[btcxyzzz]

1. Not trusted. Simply put Bitcoin has value in the market place just not with any of the vendors or people i want to do business with. My local online classifieds returns 9 ads that mention Bitcoin, out of about 100,000 new ads a month. 9. Two years ago it was 15 hits, so trending to zero???

I actually don't believe you it's lower than before - can't be. Adoption is in constant rise. Are you sure about it? Some URLs?

2. Not portable. Setting up my phone wallet is scary as hell and most certainly not close to mainstream yet.

Not that much complicated.

3. Not fast. I cannot complete a person to person transaction in less than 20 minutes.

Still faster many other means of wire-transfer but I agree, this is one of the weakest points. Hope it can be solved in future.

4. Not scalable. If I solved 1-3 above, the network would fall on its face.

I think this is FUD. Everything is solvable, code is changeable.

5. Not anonymous. Not a huge deal but nobody is tracking what I buy at garage sales today if I use the good 'ol dollar. Imagine me buying crap from a guy that turns out to be thief and a drug dealer. Nice eternal paper trail i have left behind.

Completely anonymous if you're using it through Tor.

I think it will take 10-20 years of software improvements to solve our current problems, and in the mean time.... I think the price will go lower. Maybe even for years.

I say max 3 years.