Proof-of-stake is more decentralized, efficient and secure than PoW- white paper

[Daedelus]

and just to throw in another number based on nexern's block explorer:
http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=160
46.8%

That is what I was referring too 

[Daedelus]

I don't know how CfB calculates this figure.

Average base target of the last 500 blocks is 3.5652 (or 356.52%).

100% / 3.5652 = 28.05%.

If an adversary is forging now then he needs to control only 140'000'000 NXT for 51% attack.

If an adversary is not forging now then he needs to buy only 280'000'000 NXT for 51% attack.

Is this difference due to Transparent Forging? I try to explain it here:

Cool. The main problem I see that I spoke about earlier was how to get around Transparent Forging. Each forger/miner can predict who is due to forge the next block with high probability. You can see the predictions live from the real Nxt mainnet here:

http://188.138.33.10/
(red are accounts that missed their turn, blue are ones competing for Nxt block with a prediction for the time to next block)


If cynicSOB starts broadcasting blocks when it isn't his turn, the network with blacklist him/reject all his blocks. He will have to fool many nodes in the network to tell the remainder of the network that he is next for his blocks to be accepted. And it might only lead to a temporary fork, with the network reorging later on (upt to 720 blocks later) and orphaning all his blocks. Not a trivial problem to crack.

TF is still an enigma and a little hazy to me...

[LiQio]

and just to throw in another number based on nexern's block explorer:
http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=160
46.8%

nexern's block explorer may return more correct result, my math based on assumption that all coins belong to a single account, as it's known bigger accounts have an extra forging bonus and they need less coins to reach the same average base target.

OK, thanks CfB

Just FYI I quickly summed up the current amount of forgers/forging stake seen here http://nxtportal.org/forgers/ :
47M = 47%

@spartacusrex
The interesting thing with NXT is that you don't simply forge to secure NXT but the NXT asset exchange assets and monetary system currencies.
I for example proudly forge with my 27k account to secure more than double the value in assets  

[Come-from-Beyond]

Is this difference due to Transparent Forging? I try to explain it here:

This difference is due to bias and retargetting algo.

[koubiac]

@koubiac - Hi, how many 'Mining Coins' do you think will be used, realistically,  as a percent of the whole ?

hi,

I guess it depends on mainly two parameters:

• The long term nominal interest rate.
• How developed the ecosystem of "mining wallets" (service providers that act as traditional wallets + insure a fixed interest rate to coin holders) will be.

During the infancy of the coin, since distribution is done through PoS reward (instead of PoW for Peercoin, Blackcoin etc...), the interest rate will be very high. Therefore, we expect the percentage of mining coins to be very high >80-90% (it's of course difficult to provide an exact number).
After the first years, as the coin becomes highly distributed - meaning most coin holders own <1/100,000th of the coin for instance - the role of the "mining wallet" will become increasingly important. The percentage of coins mining would probably drop to 50%, but this is of course only an educated guess.

Moreover, there are plenty of mechanism that could be easily implemented to increase the long-term mining participation without increasing the chosen maximum inflation.
For example, the mining interest rate could be a function of mining participation. Let's say a long-term inflation rate of 3% is deemed optimal and let's only 30% of the coin holders think it's worth mining for 3% a year, by implementing such a scheme, the miners' interest would be come 3%*10/3=10% . Therefore, the percentage of coins mining would increase and the inflation rate would be fixed at 3%.


PS: sorry I haven't answered your other questions yet. I'm a bit swamped but will definitely get to them when I get a moment

[Come-from-Beyond]

Why don't you just invest in a POS coin and try to get others to come along with you? If it is a better solution and Bitcoin does become centralized wouldn't people look for a different coin anyways?

I'm not a fan of blockchain tech, it's too inefficient. Necessity to store every state transition can't scale no matter what. So I'll just watch this show from outside.

[Tobo]

Why don't you just invest in a POS coin and try to get others to come along with you? If it is a better solution and Bitcoin does become centralized wouldn't people look for a different coin anyways?

I'm not a fan of blockchain tech, it's too inefficient. Necessity to store every state transition can't scale no matter what. So I'll just watch this show from outside.

But you co-founded Nxt. Do you still have a decent amount (let's say more than 500K) of NXT in your portfolio?

[Daedelus]

Why don't you just invest in a POS coin and try to get others to come along with you? If it is a better solution and Bitcoin does become centralized wouldn't people look for a different coin anyways?

I'm not a fan of blockchain tech, it's too inefficient. Necessity to store every state transition can't scale no matter what. So I'll just watch this show from outside.

But you co-founded Nxt. Do you still have a decent amount (let's say more than 500K) of NXT in your portfolio?

I'll wager 0 NXT

[Tobo]

I'm not a fan of blockchain tech, it's too inefficient. Necessity to store every state transition can't scale no matter what. So I'll just watch this show from outside.

How soon do you think that a decentralized ledger without a blockchain will emerge as a good and strong alternative to the blockchain?

[Come-from-Beyond]

But you co-founded Nxt. Do you still have a decent amount (let's say more than 500K) of NXT in your portfolio?

I had. Blackjack and girls are so expensive these days.

[Come-from-Beyond]

How soon do you think that a decentralized ledger without a blockchain will emerge as a good and strong alternative to the blockchain?

Next year.

[herzmeister]

yes; in the sense that any other approach requires you to know more information about a node in one way or another if you want to prevent sibyl attacks, so that you know you can trust them (you could see proof-of-stake as just some anonymized form of trust). And the thing with trust is...

We don't see her tits, hence your "appeal to authority" is not accepted.

neither is your counter-non-argument.

whoa, is taylor swift a hardcore bitcoiner? maybe it's been taylor swift who has been doing megadumps all over us.

eeeeewww

https://twitter.com/swiftonsecurity
http://imgur.com/gallery/1PDRJ

[Come-from-Beyond]

Are you developing this or a part of it?

Yes.

[Klestin]

I'm not a fan of blockchain tech, it's too inefficient. Necessity to store every state transition can't scale no matter what. So I'll just watch this show from outside.

Factually incorrect.  Of course it can scale, it's doing so now.  With current ongoing development, scaling will continue to be possible for the foreseeable future.  The top posts in this forum will start you on the road to knowledge.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Factually incorrect.  Of course it can scale, it's doing so now.  With current ongoing development, scaling will continue to be possible for the foreseeable future.  The top posts in this forum will start you on the road to knowledge.

It's a delusion, but I'm not going to waste time on explaining why it is so.

[Klestin]

It's a delusion, but I'm not going to waste time on explaining why it is so.

Darn! And I was so close to seeing the light!  *Sadface*

[criptix]

Factually incorrect.  Of course it can scale, it's doing so now.  With current ongoing development, scaling will continue to be possible for the foreseeable future.  The top posts in this forum will start you on the road to knowledge.

It's a delusion, but I'm not going to waste time on explaining why it is so.

Could you link something? I would be really interested in reading more about it!

coz i guess you are not meaning blockchain size and tps right?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Could you link something? I would be really interested in reading more about it!

coz i guess you are not meaning blockchain size and tps right?

If you are not a programmer then start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_of_algorithms, if you are then you already see why blockchain is not scalable.

[johnyj]

...
PoW infrastructure on the other hand is not possible to duplicate, and since real world resource is limited, it gives PoW coin backing of scarcity from real world

Do you really believe that the value of a Bitcoin is backed by the energy wasted?
If so how is the structure of this correlation?

It is not backed by, but indicated by energy consumption and chip R&D investment

If there is any demand for a certain coin, people will use the lowest possible cost to get that coin, that will eventually drive the mining cost close to buying cost

Imagine that a PoS coin cost 3 cents to mine but cost $3 to buy, then everyone will mine it instead of buy it, and they will sell the mined coin immediately to cash in a 99% gain. The value of PoS coin thus will stay forever at 3 cents

[johnyj]

PoW infrastructure on the other hand is not possible to duplicate, and since real world resource is limited, it gives PoW coin backing of scarcity from real world

Ever heard of merged mining?

Good point

I think the by-product of merged mining can be regarded as no cost, but they share a stronger network security, so they should have some value, and once they had some value, that will dilute the value of the main coin because the cost of main coin is reduced