weex (OP)
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August 16, 2012, 03:36:11 AM |
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How do you feel about bitcoind's accounts? Do you always use them? Never? Are there any cases where you'd advise for or against their use?
/I'm not making any statement about accounts with this poll, just wondering if people recommend them to new developers that wish to use bitcoind.
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It is a common myth that Bitcoin is ruled by a majority of miners. This is not true. Bitcoin miners "vote" on the ordering of transactions, but that's all they do. They can't vote to change the network rules.
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kokjo
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You are WRONG!
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August 16, 2012, 07:41:07 AM |
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it is missing a "they suck!!! kill them before they lay eggs!!" vote.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
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August 16, 2012, 07:51:37 AM |
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I think there should be some special notes added to the API documentation (or at least a link to something) to describe clearly what Bitcoin "accounts" actually are because much of the negative views about them is due to not understanding them correctly (such as thinking they are the same as "coin control").
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kokjo
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You are WRONG!
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August 16, 2012, 08:50:59 AM |
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I think there should be some special notes added to the API documentation (or at least a link to something) to describe clearly what Bitcoin "accounts" actually are because much of the negative views about them is due to not understanding them correctly (such as thinking they are the same as "coin control").
THEY CAN HAVE NEGATIVE BALANCES!!! feature? bug? |
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
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August 16, 2012, 09:27:53 AM |
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THEY CAN HAVE NEGATIVE BALANCES!!! feature? bug?
Am not aware of this feature/bug as after realising that accounts were not suitable for what I was looking for (which was really coin control) I stopped playing with them. |
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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
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August 16, 2012, 09:31:57 AM |
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THEY CAN HAVE NEGATIVE BALANCES!!! feature? bug?
Am not aware of this feature/bug as after realising that accounts were not suitable for what I was looking for (which was really coin control) I stopped playing with them. Actually now that I think about it this would make perfect sense as the "account" is just a label you put onto a tx. So if you send and you had never received with an address labelled as an account then of course the balance would be negative. I guess it really just says more about the unintuitive nature of the implementation. |
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GideonGono
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August 17, 2012, 02:11:39 AM |
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THEY CAN HAVE NEGATIVE BALANCES!!! feature? bug?
Am not aware of this feature/bug as after realising that accounts were not suitable for what I was looking for (which was really coin control) I stopped playing with them. what do you mean by coin control? |
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notme
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August 17, 2012, 02:17:06 AM |
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THEY CAN HAVE NEGATIVE BALANCES!!! feature? bug?
Am not aware of this feature/bug as after realising that accounts were not suitable for what I was looking for (which was really coin control) I stopped playing with them. what do you mean by coin control? Intuitively, one might think that sendfrom [account] [destination] [amount] would send from the address labelled with the account. It does something else that I don't really understand instead. |
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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
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August 17, 2012, 02:17:45 AM |
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what do you mean by coin control?
There is a patch/branch for Bitcoin that enables you to nominate which addresses to send BTC from (normally you have no control over this). In the next release (0.7) there will be a new raw transaction API which will enable you to do the same (and actually more as you will have complete control over the transaction with it). |
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CIYAM
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August 17, 2012, 02:19:34 AM |
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Intuitively, one might think that sendfrom [account] [destination] [amount] would send from the address labelled with the account. It does something else that I don't really understand instead.
What it does is basically label the tx with the account name (it actually doesn't have anything to do with which addresses are picked to send from). |
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notme
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August 17, 2012, 02:28:12 AM |
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Intuitively, one might think that sendfrom [account] [destination] [amount] would send from the address labelled with the account. It does something else that I don't really understand instead.
What it does is basically label the tx with the account name (it actually doesn't have anything to do with which addresses are picked to send from). Thanks, I would have named that sendas though. |
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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
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August 17, 2012, 02:48:21 AM |
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Thanks, I would have named that sendas though.
Good call - I think naming the command sendfrom is what has confused people about its behaviour. |
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NRF
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August 18, 2012, 08:54:51 AM |
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I have (unsuccessfully) tried to use them, but I am terribly comfortable with them.
I think the concept of accounts is probably better left to accounting software and don't really fit into the scope of what the bitcoind should be doing. Bitcoind is not (and does/should pretend to be) an accounting program.
If it were up to me the developers should just cut them out and concentrate on more important things, perhaps extending the [comment] [comment-to] system to work with incoming transactions.
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CIYAM
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August 18, 2012, 08:57:56 AM |
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Actually they are nothing like accounting accounts which is exactly why I (and I assume some others) was confused by them in the first place.
The idea of a Bitcoin "account" is to help support a "website user account" rather than anything to do with a general ledger in accounting.
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NRF
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August 18, 2012, 09:03:36 AM |
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Ah, yeah, that makes more sense I suppose, and it explains why they did not work like I thought they would.
Brings me to the question though, is a "website user account" system really in the scope of what bitcoind should be doing?
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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
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August 18, 2012, 09:08:27 AM |
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Brings me to the question though, is a "website user account" system really in the scope of what bitcoind should be doing?
A good point - personally I think it was probably not such a great idea to have added the commands in the first place (although I can understand why they would have been requested) - the raw transaction commands are definitely something I see as being more useful. |
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mp420
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August 18, 2012, 09:15:43 AM |
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I hate the feature and have not yet found any use for them; they confuse the user for no gain. If they implemented even a very rudimentary way to do manual coin control I'd use them.
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ribuck
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August 18, 2012, 09:52:38 AM |
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The purpose of "accounts" is to automatically adjust balances when there is a block chain reorganization.
Suppose you run a business selling widgets, and Fred sends you 10 bitcoins to buy a widget. If you have associated a receiving address with "Fred's account", that account will show a balance of 10 BTC.
Later, there is a block chain reorganization, and on the new block chain there is no longer a payment from Fred. In that case, the balance of "Fred's account" will show zero. If more blocks are successfully built onto the original chain, the block chain may be reorganized again, and the balance of "Fred's account" will again show 10BTC.
For many businesses, this is exactly what they want. If the business has an ongoing relationship with the customer, they know at all times how many coins they have received from that customer.
On the other hand, it's rather impractical, particularly for businesses with irreversable transactions or with lots of one-off transactions.
In practice, most businesses prefer to wait for (say) 6 confirmations of receiving the payment. The business then credits "Fred's account" (on their database, not in their Bitcoin client) with 10BTC, which the business regards as irrevocable. The widget is shipped to the customer at that point. If, later, there is a block chain reorganization, the widget business carries the loss on their books (although naturally if they know who the customer is they will try to recover the payment).
In normal circumstances, 6 confirmations is sufficient that a block chain reorganization is very unlikely to occur after that point. However, it's possible. When the overflow bug was affected, there was a block chain split that wasn't resolved until each user updated their Bitcoin software. For many users, this took longer than 6 confirmations (people gotta sleep, etc) so many people were running for a while on a faulty block chain that was destined to become orphaned.
(And yes, the ability to let an account balance go negative is a feature, not a bug.)
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CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
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August 18, 2012, 09:57:10 AM |
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The purpose of "accounts" is to automatically adjust balances when there is a block chain reorganization.
Interesting - hadn't heard of this explanation before - has a block chain reorg occurred since the API commands were introduced? |
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notme
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August 18, 2012, 03:47:02 PM |
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The purpose of "accounts" is to automatically adjust balances when there is a block chain reorganization.
Interesting - hadn't heard of this explanation before - has a block chain reorg occurred since the API commands were introduced? Frequently two blocks are announced in a very short timeframe and part of the network works on extending each. Last one occurred on August 15th. http://blockexplorer.com/q/reorglog |
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