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Author Topic: How much to protect the network?  (Read 3233 times)
Gabi
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August 17, 2012, 04:49:09 PM
 #21

They can defeat bitcoin with what, 0.00001% of that 700 billion?

DannyHamilton
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August 17, 2012, 05:08:07 PM
 #22

They can defeat bitcoin with what, 0.00001% of that 700 billion?
$70,000?  What method would you suggest the $70k would be spent on?
Gabi
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August 17, 2012, 05:23:45 PM
 #23

I said billion, not million

 0.00001% of 700 billion is 7 million. Wich should be enough for a 51% attack. In doubt take 10 million and that's sure.

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August 17, 2012, 06:00:36 PM
 #24

. . .In the case of Bitcoin, the current(at the time of this writing) market cap of Bitcoin is about $134 million. . .there is a total of $10.1 million worth of mining equipment protecting that $134 market cap. . .
The question then becomes, is a 10:1 ratio enough? Do we need a near 1:1 ratio for Bitcoin to be protected against wealthy and powerful enemies? . . .Can somebody please explain to me how this is not a fatal flaw in Bitcoin?
If/when bitcoin starts to reach mainstream usage, it is entirely possible that the exchange rate could be closer to 1300USD:1BTC than 13USD:1BTC.  This puts your market cap over 13 Billion, and your ratio at current difficulty and equipment cost around 1000:1.


If the price of Bitcoin goes up to $1300 USD then the difficulty will climb as well because of increased mining. The ratio will likely stay around 10:1. The question is whether or not that's enough. If the market cap of Bitcoin rises 100 fold, then it would take 100 fold of $10 million to defeat it, which is $1 billion. That's still easily within the ability of the state to crush.

My conclusion is that Bitcoin still very much is and will be for a long time in a state of infancy and great danger. Until the defense budget(or cumulative mining operations) of bitcoin gets so big that even the governments of the world cannot muster enough resources to challenge it, it will be in danger.

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August 17, 2012, 06:48:31 PM
 #25

My conclusion is that Bitcoin still very much is and will be for a long time in a state of infancy and great danger.

ASICs are changing the outlook as well.  

When the GPU was as good as it gets for maximizing hash rate, the capacity was spread among a lot of people, globally.  Because many people already had a GPU, or could justify the cost because it had value for gaming regardless of Bitcoin, the hashing capacity of the network grew.

With ASICs, there will be just a few producers.  And the products don't have much (any) use outside of bitcoin.  Essentially the mining production capacity is becoming very centralized.  If the the manufacturer is directed, production facilities are commandeered -- in the interest of national security, of course:

Quote
(b) provide for the modification or expansion of privately owned facilities, including the modification or improvement of production processes, when taking actions under sections 301, 302, or 303 of the Act, 50 U.S.C. App. 2091, 2092, 2093; and
(c) sell or otherwise transfer equipment owned by the Federal Government and installed under section 303(e) of the Act, 50 U.S.C. App. 2093(e), to the owners of such plants, factories, or other industrial facilities.
- http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/16/executive-order-national-defense-resources-preparedness

Though that would be foolish, as we are not entirely helpless.

If the economic majority (by those willing to accept bitcoins in exchange for value) were to agree, a hard fork could render those ASICs worthless.  Reverting to bitstreams and GPU miner code is a response that neuters the tyrannical threat regarding Bitcoin technology.

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DannyHamilton
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August 17, 2012, 07:10:58 PM
 #26

They can defeat bitcoin with what, 0.00001% of that 700 billion?
$70,000?  What method would you suggest the $70k would be spent on?

0.00001% of 700 billion is 7 million.
Lets take a look at that math:

10% of 700 billion = 70 billion
1% of 700 billion = 7 billion
.1% of 700 billion = 700 million
.01% of 700 billion = 70 million
.001% of 700 billion = 7 million
.0001% of 700 billion = 700 thousand
.00001% of 700 billion = 70 thousand

Nope, I think I had it right.  $70,000.
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August 17, 2012, 07:22:23 PM
 #27

. . .In the case of Bitcoin, the current(at the time of this writing) market cap of Bitcoin is about $134 million. . .there is a total of $10.1 million worth of mining equipment protecting that $134 market cap. . .
The question then becomes, is a 10:1 ratio enough? Do we need a near 1:1 ratio for Bitcoin to be protected against wealthy and powerful enemies? . . .Can somebody please explain to me how this is not a fatal flaw in Bitcoin?
If/when bitcoin starts to reach mainstream usage, it is entirely possible that the exchange rate could be closer to 1300USD:1BTC than 13USD:1BTC.  This puts your market cap over 13 Billion, and your ratio at current difficulty and equipment cost around 1000:1.


If the price of Bitcoin goes up to $1300 USD then the difficulty will climb as well because of increased mining. The ratio will likely stay around 10:1. The question is whether or not that's enough. If the market cap of Bitcoin rises 100 fold, then it would take 100 fold of $10 million to defeat it, which is $1 billion. That's still easily within the ability of the state to crush.

My conclusion is that Bitcoin still very much is and will be for a long time in a state of infancy and great danger. Until the defense budget(or cumulative mining operations) of bitcoin gets so big that even the governments of the world cannot muster enough resources to challenge it, it will be in danger.

I'll go on record saying I think the value per bitcoin can easily reach $130,000 or more. That's 100 times more than your $1300 figure which makes it at least $100 billion for the attack. And that's before any "bitcoin defenders", people who have interest in seeing Bitcoin succeed, pull out the stops to defend the network.

Granted, there is a long way to go before reaching that lofty figure, so I agree the barrier-to-entry for attack is more palatable early on.

But I think bitcoins are protected in other ways. Using your math let's say it now takes at least 10 million for an attack. That's no small figure. Nobody is going to do that for profit motive. Not Oprah Winfrey, not a company like Apple, nobody. It would not make any sense. Bitcoins pose no threat to these people or entities, so why would they waste their money? Besides money is only part of it what's necessary. You have to hire the right engineers, procure all the hardware, set it up, carry out the operation, worry about blowback, etc. It makes no sense.

No, an attacker investing that substantially would have to feel threatened somehow, like a government. The problem is it would have to be a First World government, and in case you haven't noticed, all of them are in various states of financial crisis right now. I'll tell you why a government wouldn't do it in a second. First, a quick reminder about the state of U.S. finances:

U.S. Fiscal Cliff

Quote
Wikipedia: In August 2011, Congress passed the Budget Control Act of 2011 to resolve the debt-ceiling crisis. This law provided ... decrease the deficit by $1.2 trillion over the next ten years. Because the committee failed to do so, another part of the Budget Control Act directed across-the-board cuts split evenly between defense and domestic spending, beginning January 2, 2013. ...

Cuts totaling $110 billion per year will be applied from 2013 to 2022, split evenly ($55 billion each) to defense and non-defense discretionary spending. For scale, discretionary funding for 2011 totaled $1,277 billion

Uncle Sam can no longer airily brush off "oh just another 1 billion dollars". His credit line has been checked. So even spending 1 billion against some project called "Bitcoin" would be felt.

But the real reason I doubt any government would take action is something I mentioned above: blowback. If it was discovered a government actually set up and carried out an attack what do you think would happen? Do you think the thousands of people already involved in Bitcoin would take that lying down? Can you imagine the press something like that would create? And who knows what other reactions it would spark?

If nothing else it would legitimize bitcoin in a way that would certainly put the focus on it. In other words, the effort to kill it could easily backfire. Remember, a 51% hash attack is not something that works in perpetuity; it has to be sustained. The blockchain already has more than 3 years of validity to it, a measurement to which we know transactions are true. A 51% attack doesn't "break" anything. At any point when the network regained confidence that honest nodes were winning bitcoin could continue on.

Such attacks also wouldn't be effective against proper physical bitcoins as I describe here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98318.msg1076508#msg1076508

While I agree such an attack is possible in a theoretical sense, I consider it highly unlikely.

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August 17, 2012, 09:34:37 PM
 #28

Here's what Gavin had to say about neutralizing a 51% attack,

http://gavintech.blogspot.no/2012/05/neutralizing-51-attack.html

Given there are options like that and the amount of money wasted to make it happen I think it's not too likely to be rational for some government to pursue.

Gabi
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August 17, 2012, 10:49:40 PM
 #29

They can defeat bitcoin with what, 0.00001% of that 700 billion?
$70,000?  What method would you suggest the $70k would be spent on?

0.00001% of 700 billion is 7 million.
Lets take a look at that math:

10% of 700 billion = 70 billion
1% of 700 billion = 7 billion
.1% of 700 billion = 700 million
.01% of 700 billion = 70 million
.001% of 700 billion = 7 million
.0001% of 700 billion = 700 thousand
.00001% of 700 billion = 70 thousand

Nope, I think I had it right.  $70,000.

You are right

Well, as you see with such small numbers it's easy to make a mistake. 0.001% or 0.00001% is not a big difference for who has 700 billions. They can destroy bitcoin very very easily

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August 17, 2012, 10:58:22 PM
 #30

You are right

Well, as you see with such small numbers it's easy to make a mistake. 0.001% or 0.00001% is not a big difference for who has 700 billions. They can destroy bitcoin very very easily

No, someone who has $700 billion could pull of a 51% attack fairly easily. That doesn't equal destroying Bitcoin. There are workarounds and defense options in the event an attack is detected.
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