Bitcoin Forum
January 24, 2019, 12:10:04 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.17.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Investigating the need for MasterCoin / Colored Bitcoins  (Read 9936 times)
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
August 17, 2012, 04:48:05 AM
Last edit: August 22, 2012, 09:53:58 PM by ripper234
 #1

This topic has been discussed before.

MasterCoin is a codename (coined by dacoinminster) for a concept that has been discussed many times here. The basic idea is a new P2P cryptocurrency that allows anyone to easily issue, control and distribute new types of coins.

Example use cases

 - Greece might issue "Drachma 2", a new coin that they manage.
 - A gold trading company can issue GoldCoin, which they promise is always backed by physical gold (insured by 3rd parties)
 - An individual can issue MyCoin, and distribute those to people who he values ... he would then be willing to trade this coin in exchange for his time
 - and so forth...
 - Other Bitcoin-like coins can be issued on top of this coin, investigating properties like faster confirms, different economic properties, StakeCoin, ...

The idea is that Bitcoin itself has very rigid economic properties, that will never be changed, namely fixed money supply and a specific coin minting schedule. Who says these specific parameters are "the correct ones" for the currency that positions itself as a candidate for being the one global currency?

Alternate cryptocurrencies can be created by forking the Bitcoin client, but this process is damn hard. A group of non-techy friends that want to create a "BeerCoin", local to their group, that symbolizes who owe who a beer, will never fork the Bitcoin client. Beyond the technical difficulty of forking, alt coins often have low hash power, and are prone to various attacks because they don't share Bitcoin's hash power (Merged Mining is not a trivial solution for any new alt coin).

So far I just introduced the topic, but I didn't say that I support it.

My opinion

I remain unconvinced that this concept is needed. I believe that people don't really have a need to deal with a lot of coins, and that the ideal situation, for the human kind, would be to have only one representation of money.

As for some of the use cases above, I don't think that a p2p cryptocurrency is the best solution for them. Open Transactions might fulfill all the requirements without the added complexities of Bitcoin, and without being a burden on its blockchain.

I believe that Bitcoin has all the desired properties of an ideal currency. There might be a few competing variations, with minor changes to the coin minting schedule, block confirmation strategy, and so forth ... but we don't really need more than a handful such alternates.

Implementation Notes
Just an aside - I prefer to keep the discussion at the "is there a need for this" level, but I still wanted to reference  two possible implementations for this concept as a p2p currency:

 - Dacoinminster's proposal of MasterCoin (already linked) - a new blockchain that people can switch into by "destroying an amount of bitcoin" in exchange for obtaining new MasterCoins.
 - "Coloring Bitcoins" using a modified client, but without any protocol changes.


Discuss

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
1548331804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1548331804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1548331804
Reply with quote  #2

1548331804
Report to moderator
1548331804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1548331804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1548331804
Reply with quote  #2

1548331804
Report to moderator
1548331804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1548331804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1548331804
Reply with quote  #2

1548331804
Report to moderator
PLAY NOW
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1548331804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1548331804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1548331804
Reply with quote  #2

1548331804
Report to moderator
1548331804
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1548331804

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1548331804
Reply with quote  #2

1548331804
Report to moderator
str4wm4n
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1615
Merit: 1000


View Profile
August 17, 2012, 05:35:59 AM
 #2

very interesting...this is a good idea in my opinion

I can imagine entire communities and regions having their own coins,
and in a truly anarcho-capitalist scenario, the places you would want
to stay in the longest would have the most valuable coins and all coins
could be traded against each other. it would be beautiful
NASDAQEnema
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 17, 2012, 06:28:43 AM
 #3

Wow. That didn't take long.

Working on MasterCoin type things...

Man this place lights up when summer is over just like Anons.

Well the hive has ideas, I guess we can find some common ground.

If you feel Universe has trolled you exclusively, please donate to Emergency Butthurt Support Fund:
1Jv4wa1w4Le4Ku9MZRxcobnDFzAUF9aotH
Proceeds go to Emergency Butthurt Escape Pod none of you will be allowed to use. If you have read this far, you must pay Emergency Butthurt Internet Tax.
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
August 19, 2012, 05:37:50 PM
 #4

So ... nothing? Or is everybody too busy with Pirate and BTC/USD fluctuations to care about this?

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1002



View Profile WWW
August 20, 2012, 01:20:37 AM
 #5

Is this necessary in order to work around the enmity some miners seem to have toward merged-mine-able chains?

In principle merged mining was intended to accomplish this ability for many new coins to easily be brought on line, in practice merged mining was even used to attack alternative chains instead of to secure them. Though maybe a more aggressive legal-action response to folk who attack networks could eventually ameliorate that, at least moving it from a public action of major pools to a back alley operation fully acknowleged to be as illegal as any other cyber-attack...

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
August 20, 2012, 03:48:07 AM
 #6

Is this necessary in order to work around the enmity some miners seem to have toward merged-mine-able chains?

In principle merged mining was intended to accomplish this ability for many new coins to easily be brought on line, in practice merged mining was even used to attack alternative chains instead of to secure them. Though maybe a more aggressive legal-action response to folk who attack networks could eventually ameliorate that, at least moving it from a public action of major pools to a back alley operation fully acknowleged to be as illegal as any other cyber-attack...

-MarkM-


Yeah, spot on. With Merged Mining it's difficult to attract to right crowd to merge mine your chain. I don't think legal action is something we should count on ... not even sure it attacking blockchains constitutes an attack in any legal manner.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
frisco2
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 274
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 20, 2012, 04:04:16 AM
 #7

Cons: I do not think that I should be mining GoldCoin if I never use it. I only want to spend resources on Bitcoin.

Pro: I refer you to Milton Friedman, who advocated the use of different currencies in different countries in order to allow free market to set converstion rates on the currencies -- it would represent different development of the countries, and their law system.  A Chineese worker gets payed salary in his currency, and american consumer buys chineese exports in dollars. The conversion rates will balance out for everyone to make a good living / spending situation. Mind you, Friedman developed this idea, before an electronic "gold" like Bitcoin existed.

Just10.com -- Ad-Free Private Social Network for just 10 of your friends.
maaku
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 905
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 20, 2012, 01:46:50 PM
 #8

There's no need for a "master block chain", if I'm reading your post right. Just update the existing client to support multiple chains side-by-side in a single running process. This is something that I was going to work on eventually, if for no other reason than to simplify the process of running bitcoin and freicoin side-by-side and sharing patches.

But for most of your needs, Open Transactions fills the bill. A bitcoin-like block chain is only ideal for a small number of use cases that require peer-to-peer distributed services. For most financial applications there is inherent centralization in the problem, making Open Transactions a better, more lightweight solution.

I'm an independent developer working on bitcoin-core, making my living off community donations.
If you like my work, please consider donating yourself: 13snZ4ZyCzaL7358SmgvHGC9AxskqumNxP
yoniassia
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42
Merit: 0



View Profile WWW
August 20, 2012, 02:15:16 PM
 #9

The main reason to use the bitcoin chain is to harness the community of bitcoin, and let it scale towards an economic infrastructure rather than just one currency.
The Second Bitcoin White paper http://bit.ly/SecondBitcoin (with open comments) is indeed a great comprehensive work on the shortfalls of the bitcoin , I believe that a lot of the concets there are not required for the main problem which is :
"Alternate block chains compete with bitcoins financially, confuse our message to the world, and dilute our efforts. These barriers interfere with the adoption momentum of bitcoin and the adoption momentum of alternate currencies as well, regardless of how well-conceived their
rules may be."

The bitcoin2.X (or possibly bitcoinX http://bit.ly/Bitcoin2) is a much simpler approach :
instead of fixing the value of one currency, lets use the bitcoin infrastructure to create a number of currencies all based on the security of the bitcoin , by simply recognizing a coloring protocol on top of the bitcoin protocol .

I love the Milton Friedman Quote, it conveys exactly what we are saying, why build a currency if you can rebuild the economy ?

http://www.yoniassia.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/yassia
https://twitter.com/yoniassia
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1002



View Profile WWW
August 20, 2012, 05:32:16 PM
Last edit: August 21, 2012, 11:26:26 PM by markm
 #10

Currently though, this code does not actually exist.

Also, I trying to peg a currency is fraught with problems, supposedly.

Merged mining is code that already exists, and merged mined chains are plug-and-play compatible with existing software that currently contacts a bitcoin daemon to do transactions, so software already exists which should work fine with almost any merged-mined chain,

Pegging is not the only way to stabilise the value of a currency; using reserves seems to work quite well. It has been well over a year now since various altchains that use the reserves approach were started, and their values seem strikingly stable compared to the volatility of chains whose coins are minted by arbitrary random miners who maybe have no interest in the coins other than that of dumping them for fiat.

Of course it is hard to see the stability if you express values in terms of some highly volatile coin, but take a look for example at the values expressed in CDN and/or the values expressed in NKL, at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
August 20, 2012, 07:19:14 PM
 #11

The main reason to use the bitcoin chain is to harness the community of bitcoin, and let it scale towards an economic infrastructure rather than just one currency.

I don't think this is a good enough reason. If there are technical benefits to using OT (and I think there are), then it should be the chosen solution. Bitcoiners might still be early adopters of this new tech.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
yoniassia
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42
Merit: 0



View Profile WWW
August 20, 2012, 09:07:15 PM
 #12

"I believe that Bitcoin has all the desired properties of an ideal currency. There might be a few competing variations, with minor changes to the coin minting schedule, block confirmation strategy, and so forth ... but we don't really need more than a handful such alternates."

This sentence means u understand the need for several currencies, therefore a solution is needed.
why compete over resources if all these currencies can work together, why keep things fragmented if they can be unified.

in a future of digital currencies (by definition all currencies will become digital as its the progress of analog), in order to keep them digital while exchanging them they will need to be based on the same protocol to keep persistency (transforming bitcoin to usd is very similiar to digital to analog conversions). if that future will include colored bitcoins, you could replicate or convert the value of any analog financial instrument into a colored bitcoin (gold, dollar, oil), and then exchange them in virtual form, without the need to convert back to analog.
Playing santoshdice made me realize how amazing it is to have your money in your wallet and simply for every transaction place your bet and get it back to your account - the equivilant in regular world would be deposit into gaming account (use credit card, move money from credit to bank, bank to gaming company 3 days, make bet, withdraw (again 3 days). Having

From what I understand open transaction is much more than just a crypto currency its an entire system and specification of any type of financial contracts, which make it harder to understand, and harder to implement globally.

What is really needed to change the world is create a killer app, that creates new usage over the web of transferring value from one person to another. The technology is here, bitcoin can provide the crypto currency and twitter the communication way. There are 500M people who know how to twit, why not twit money ? all we need is to find a way to connect the client to tiny bitcoins, and after to think how you can exchange one value for another.
killerstorm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 21, 2012, 10:50:16 AM
 #13

I failed to understand about a half of MasterCoin paper, but it seems to be way too complex and it's unlikely to work. dacoinminster is neither a programmer nor a crypto guy, so there is a lot of unimplementable wishful thinking in there.

However, coloring bitcoins is the shit. I really see no downsides, but it's incredibly easy and in can work.
Even if it doesn't catch on, it's definitely worth to implement it as an experiment.

(Well, technically there is a couple of problems: Bitcoin blockchain is hostile towards microtransactions and probably cannot scale to support them on a large scale. But it isn't a fundamental problem, I think.)

Compared to other solutions, it is interesting because it allows one to create new assets with pretty much zero friction. There are no servers to worry about, no security woes, no DDoS attacks. Just color some bitcoins and it works: forever, worldwide, for free, in a form which is highly resistant to censorship and blockades.

Isn't it awesome?

Merged mining really cannot compete with it because it is incredibly hard to create a new asset with it.

OpenTransactions, perhaps, can, but colored bitcoins have numerous advantages. So it would be interesting to see them competing.

Is anybody working on an implementation now?


colored coins proof-of-concept: private currencies, stock/bond p2p exchange

Tips and donations: 16v13Fa9cPmfFzpm9mmbWwAkXY4gyY6uh4
yoniassia
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42
Merit: 0



View Profile WWW
August 21, 2012, 09:20:56 PM
 #14

thanks for the amazing response ! We fill it is an extremely simple approach to extend into an economy, and we are building it.

We are building our first client as one colored bitcoin, to create http://www.twitcoin.org, basically a coin which has initial distribution and "mining" algo based on twitter users data. Open source, github, node js .

Intrested to help ?
killerstorm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 21, 2012, 09:40:25 PM
 #15

Intrested to help ?

Well, I'm interested in colored bitcoins, but not so much in that twitcoins. To be honest, I don't see how that can work: there won't be any demand. Also, unlimited supply...

But if you're working on bitcoin integration perhaps same code can be used for other colored bitcoins, like in general case, then I'm interested in that. But I don't have much spare time, to be honest...

I haven't found any github links so I don't see what is done (and in which direction) so far.

colored coins proof-of-concept: private currencies, stock/bond p2p exchange

Tips and donations: 16v13Fa9cPmfFzpm9mmbWwAkXY4gyY6uh4
yoniassia
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42
Merit: 0



View Profile WWW
August 28, 2012, 09:51:51 AM
 #16

ripper234 is looking for the base client to work on at :
What client is easiest to fork? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102595.0

What we would like is to start by building a new full client (with GUI) that support a new colored bitcoin,

help appreciated,

Thanks,
yoni
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1002



View Profile WWW
August 28, 2012, 10:03:41 AM
 #17

First step should be to localise all the details of the code that make the program look like it is one particular type of coin.

That is, all the places where the name of the coin is displayed and so on.

That way any "colour" of coin or any "alt" coin can be built easily as all the strings and logos and so on that are different from one coin to another will all be in one place easy to switch/change.

Similarly, the key constants that make it one coin or another: the port and rpcport, the IRC channel, the DNS seed and so on.

Basically make the code generic. First step to making it easy for people to create their clients easily for their chosen colour of coin.

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
killerstorm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 28, 2012, 10:36:11 AM
 #18

Why not the default, "Satoshi" client? It might be a tad harder to work with it, but on the other hand people who already have it won't need to re-download the blockchain.

Also it depends on what programming language person who wants to implement it knows, e.g. C++ programmer would be more comfortable with C++ source code, obviously.

I help is needed I can perhaps fork some time this weekend. I'm most familiar with C++ but I can program in pretty much any language. I think it's possible to to implement this in one-two days or so. (But I'm not 100% sure we mean same thing by 'color bitcoin implementation'.)

Also I thought that transaction fees would be a problem for microtransactions with colored bitcoins. In that case simplest strategy is to start a block chain merged-mined with Bitcoin which would have no txn fees. But that's like a backup plan.

colored coins proof-of-concept: private currencies, stock/bond p2p exchange

Tips and donations: 16v13Fa9cPmfFzpm9mmbWwAkXY4gyY6uh4
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1002



View Profile WWW
August 28, 2012, 11:10:06 AM
 #19

What will you be using as an exchange for, say, these "twitcoins" for example?

If you use Open Transactions for your twitcoins or whatever coins, you'd also have markets too automatically...

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
killerstorm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 28, 2012, 11:31:06 AM
 #20

In theory, exchange between coins of different colors can be distributed, i.e. run as P2P client.

colored coins proof-of-concept: private currencies, stock/bond p2p exchange

Tips and donations: 16v13Fa9cPmfFzpm9mmbWwAkXY4gyY6uh4
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Bitcointalk.org is not available or authorized for sale. Do not believe any fake listings.
Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!