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Author Topic: [LTC-GLOBAL] The Litecoin Global Virtual Stock Exchange - Public Beta  (Read 21301 times)
burnside (OP)
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October 03, 2012, 09:02:26 AM
 #101

Big changes in the layout tonight.  Hope everyone likes it!
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October 03, 2012, 08:37:21 PM
 #102

The most promising and useful Litecoin project.  Smiley

Could you please change the script so that mutiple bids and asks are possible?
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October 03, 2012, 09:53:01 PM
 #103

The most promising and useful Litecoin project.  Smiley

Could you please change the script so that mutiple bids and asks are possible?

Can you clarify?  Multiple bids are possible if you have the LTC.  Multiple asks are possible if you have the shares.  You can even (Unlike GLBSE) overlap bids on multiple securities with the same LTC.  You just cannot do it on a single security, as that would make it impossible to determine real depth.  (and thus impossible to determine the health of the market for that security.)

Cheers.
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October 04, 2012, 08:57:01 AM
 #104

Rolled out a few new JSON api endpoints this evening:

Q: Do you have an API?
A: Now you can query JSON formatted ticker and historical trade data via the following URL's:

https://www.litecoinglobal.com/api/ticker/LTC-GLOBAL
https://www.litecoinglobal.com/api/history/LTC-GLOBAL

Replace out 'LTC-GLOBAL' with the name of the ticker you wish to view. In addition, if you browse to your account page, there is a custom URL there that you can use to view your portfolio. Do not share your portfolio URL with anyone!
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October 04, 2012, 05:17:45 PM
 #105

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as that would make it impossible to determine real depth.  (and thus impossible to determine the health of the market for that security.)
Why would it make it impossible to determine the real depth? Why can't I place a buy order for 10 shares @ 1LTC and 10 shares @ 2LTC? It doesn't distort the market. Based that you have enought shares/ltcs.

Quote
You can even (Unlike GLBSE) overlap bids on multiple securities with the same LTC.
Why is that allowed? That way you can flood litecoinglobal with fake buy orders.
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October 04, 2012, 06:56:05 PM
 #106

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as that would make it impossible to determine real depth.  (and thus impossible to determine the health of the market for that security.)
Why would it make it impossible to determine the real depth? Why can't I place a buy order for 10 shares @ 1LTC and 10 shares @ 2LTC? It doesn't distort the market. Based that you have enought shares/ltcs.

I get the feeling that you haven't tried it.  That is exactly what you can do.

Quote
You can even (Unlike GLBSE) overlap bids on multiple securities with the same LTC.
Why is that allowed? That way you can flood litecoinglobal with fake buy orders.

They're not fake.  They're standing orders backed by currency in your wallet.  When one is filled, your order list is re-evaluated and anything that you can no longer afford gets removed from your standing orders.  It's no different than more complex sites where you can setup lists of conditional orders, "if this happens, do this, if that happens, do that".  Except in this case we simplify it and handle it for you.

One of the biggest complaints about GLBSE was that you couldn't put conditional bids up on more than one security backed by the same coin.  We have solved that.

Cheers.

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October 04, 2012, 11:41:55 PM
 #107

...In a way, the exchanges (even if they eventually become a frontend for open transactions) will always act as a sort of filter for keeping the junk out.  At least they should.  I'm still working on the terms for LTC-GLOBAL, but there will be significant restrictions in place to keep funds from cross-investing in each other and bringing down the entire exchange economy.  Would love to discuss other possible restrictions that (a) do not hamper legitimate companies trying to crowdfund and (b) do impede fraud or inadvertent destruction of investor value.  (please post suggestions to the LTC-GLOBAL thread tho: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101694.0)



I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but default contracts should be in place.  There are only so many investment types and having a default contract which an asset creator inputs their variables using a simple form would be great. 

Also, work on putting some kind of insurance on the assets.  I don't think central insurance "companies" would work for bitcoin assets at this stage.  Instead, my suggestion is to create a simple binary trading platform where investors can hedge their risk of a collapse of a security or failure of an operator to fulfill its contractual obligations.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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October 05, 2012, 12:52:27 AM
 #108

...In a way, the exchanges (even if they eventually become a frontend for open transactions) will always act as a sort of filter for keeping the junk out.  At least they should.  I'm still working on the terms for LTC-GLOBAL, but there will be significant restrictions in place to keep funds from cross-investing in each other and bringing down the entire exchange economy.  Would love to discuss other possible restrictions that (a) do not hamper legitimate companies trying to crowdfund and (b) do impede fraud or inadvertent destruction of investor value.  (please post suggestions to the LTC-GLOBAL thread tho: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101694.0)



I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but default contracts should be in place.  There are only so many investment types and having a default contract which an asset creator inputs their variables using a simple form would be great. 

I read through the thread on GLBSE about default contracts.  Because the contract is between the asset issuer and the share holder, I worry that having been in on the drafting of the contract, there may be some liability if something important gets missed.  Some contract examples for issuers to cut and paste would be really nice though.


Also, work on putting some kind of insurance on the assets.  I don't think central insurance "companies" would work for bitcoin assets at this stage.  Instead, my suggestion is to create a simple binary trading platform where investors can hedge their risk of a collapse of a security or failure of an operator to fulfill its contractual obligations.

I have been thinking very seriously about having a feature on assets that the asset issuers could turn on that would act as insurance on each individual asset.  It would work like this:

- asset issuer checks a box at creation time saying "I want insurance".
- asset issuer sets the value of insurance they want.  (should be roughly IPO price times number of initial shares released)
- the initial value of insurance desired results in an immediate up-front charge to pre-load the insurance fund.  (eg, 250 LTC on top of the 250 LTC creation fee)
- asset gets approved, and from there on every single trade has an "insurance fee" percentage tacked onto it of say, 0.1% or 0.2%.
- the insurance fee would go into an insurance wallet dedicated to that asset.  the value of the insurance wallet and the fact that the asset is insured would be prominently displayed on the interface.
- when the insurance wallet reaches the pre-determined value of the insurance requested, the insurance fee is no longer charged.
- if the asset issuer later defaults, the insurance fund is dispersed to current shareholders.

Thoughts?
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October 05, 2012, 03:15:44 AM
 #109

...In a way, the exchanges (even if they eventually become a frontend for open transactions) will always act as a sort of filter for keeping the junk out.  At least they should.  I'm still working on the terms for LTC-GLOBAL, but there will be significant restrictions in place to keep funds from cross-investing in each other and bringing down the entire exchange economy.  Would love to discuss other possible restrictions that (a) do not hamper legitimate companies trying to crowdfund and (b) do impede fraud or inadvertent destruction of investor value.  (please post suggestions to the LTC-GLOBAL thread tho: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101694.0)



I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but default contracts should be in place.  There are only so many investment types and having a default contract which an asset creator inputs their variables using a simple form would be great. 

I read through the thread on GLBSE about default contracts.  Because the contract is between the asset issuer and the share holder, I worry that having been in on the drafting of the contract, there may be some liability if something important gets missed.  Some contract examples for issuers to cut and paste would be really nice though.


Also, work on putting some kind of insurance on the assets.  I don't think central insurance "companies" would work for bitcoin assets at this stage.  Instead, my suggestion is to create a simple binary trading platform where investors can hedge their risk of a collapse of a security or failure of an operator to fulfill its contractual obligations.

I have been thinking very seriously about having a feature on assets that the asset issuers could turn on that would act as insurance on each individual asset.  It would work like this:

- asset issuer checks a box at creation time saying "I want insurance".
- asset issuer sets the value of insurance they want.  (should be roughly IPO price times number of initial shares released)
- the initial value of insurance desired results in an immediate up-front charge to pre-load the insurance fund.  (eg, 250 LTC on top of the 250 LTC creation fee)
- asset gets approved, and from there on every single trade has an "insurance fee" percentage tacked onto it of say, 0.1% or 0.2%.
- the insurance fee would go into an insurance wallet dedicated to that asset.  the value of the insurance wallet and the fact that the asset is insured would be prominently displayed on the interface.
- when the insurance wallet reaches the pre-determined value of the insurance requested, the insurance fee is no longer charged.
- if the asset issuer later defaults, the insurance fund is dispersed to current shareholders.

Thoughts?

I tend towards believing that sort of system is pretty pointless.  The funds that go into the insurance in effect come from investors (other than the token initial payment) - but are assigned to whoever currently owns the shares.  If we consider the two extreme cases first, it may make clear while the fund doesn't do much worthwhile:

1.  Right after IPO when all initial shares have been sold.  At this stage the insurance fund will hold 250 LTC +0.1-0.2% of share purchase price.  This is the point at which a quick scam is going to run off.  The 0.1-0.2% comes from the current investors - so if the fund defaults all they're getting back is 0.1-0.2% of what they originally paid + 250 LTC/number of shares.  Contributing the original 0.1-0.2% has gained them no benefit over just buying the shares at 0.1-0.2% less and keeping the other 0.1-0.2% themselves in tehir own wallet with the ability to use it at any time they choose.

2.  Now consider many years down the road - where the insurance pool covers the entire IPO price.  That money is not producing any revenue - but is assigned to the current share-holders.  That means that (if we take a share which dividends out all profits for simplicity) the price of those shares has to have doubled (as each share is now backed by twice the IPO price - half as working capital, half as insurance).  But income is only being generated from the half of that revenue which is in the hands of the company - AND there's no way shareholders can ever get hold of that half other than through the company defaulting.

COntinuing with case 2 - now consider this from the perspective of a new investor.  He has the option of investing in this insured company or in another company which has been running as long but doesn't have the insurance fund.

Company 1 (insured) - has shares costing 1 LTC and 1 LTC of insurance backing each share.  It trades at 2 LTC.
Company 2 (uninsured) - has shares costing 1 LTC and 0 LTC of insurance backing.  It trades at 1 LTC.

Both have the same apparent level of risk of default.

So he can buy the insured share - or instead but an insured 1 and keep the equivalent of the insurance money himself in his own wallet, accessible at any time (and able to be able to be used to produce more profits).

Obviously the share prices would NOT be double for company 1 than company 2 - but if it is NOT double then that just makes company 1 an even worse investment - as it means cash being spent on the purchase/transfer of company 1 shares is not ending up being reflected in the company's share-price.

A more likely scenario long-term is that company 1 ends up with shares only valued slightly higher than company 2.  I believe this would be the case - given they both have same assets and generate same revenue and the only premium on value for company 1 is in the insurance which MUST be valued at below 100% of value unless you KNOW an immediate default is going to occur - at which stage the REST of company's value becomes worthless.  What that means is that the vast majority of the insurance payments going into the fund have added no value to the stock - making company 2 the better investment all along UNLESS you believe the risk of default is high.  And if you believe the risk of default is high the NEITHER is worth investing in early.

In short : Company 1 only becomes a good investment when the insurance fund is maxed but has no great impact on the share price due to default being seen as highly unlikely.  Company 1 is a significantly worse investment in early stages because you get nothing of note back if it defaults - and the insurance premium (which can't have its full value rationally reflected in the share price) means you make a loss when you sell the share on (compared to company 2).

Looking at it from an entirely perspective, consider the following.

Investor one invests 1000 LTC every day in new shares - always in insured ones on which 0.1% (1 LTC) is taken for insurance.
Investor two always invests 999 LTC every day in new uninsured shares and puts 1 LTC into a cold-wallet every day.

Which of them is better off?  I'd say invest two is better off.  He has immediate access to LTC every day and doesn't have the (no matter how small, non-zero) risk of the exchange failing and keeping his insurance funds.  Investor 2 has actually "insured" himself not just against the share defaulting but also against the exchange defaulting. 

Personally I'd be investor 3 - who invested 1000 LTC in uninsured shares.  If I believe my investments will make a non-zero profit then it makes more sense than leaving any in an insurance fund (whether my own cold-wallet or an exchange-run one).

Any insurance plan which involves LTC sitting around generating no income is automatically bad value in my book.  There's actually a danger that such plans would HELP scammers - as it's a really cheap and easy way for a scammer to ptove (to those who don't think it through) that they're real.  Whilst the actual genuine businesses would reject it - as it's simply a bad way for their investors' funds to be used and devalues their shares in relation to the capital invested them compared to uninsured companies.

For similar reasons to the above paragraph I'm not a big fan of "ID verification" as a means to determining whether a company is legitimate.  It detracts from what I see as the two real things potential investors should be looking at:

Does the business have a plan which will actually make a profit?
Is the business verifiably able to do what it claims it would be doing?

From my perspective, looking at most of the scams, the red flag has nothing to do with whether they were verified or not.  The common thread to a lot of them is that they never provided any credible and verifiable means by which they would make money.  That includes pass-throughs to unidentified magic-money-making enterprises and the development of websites with no credible evidence that they could ever be monetarised sufficiently to generate the sort of revenue they'd need for the capital they were asking for.  If a company can make money doing what it says it'll be doing then that's a much better incentive for me to invest than whether they produced IF (fake or not) or have some sort of insurance policy that decreases my earnings whilst they don't default and doesn't give back much if they do.

What SHOULD be verified is when a company claims to be associated with a real world company -as one of the bonds on LTC-GLOBAL does.  Amazingly people are asking for proof of hardware - but not for the very basic prrof I'd want (before investing) that they actually ARE working in behalf of that company.  If something that is verifiable is claimed then no way am I investing until it's verified.  I'm not saying the exchange should do that - but it amazes me that investors will see someone say "I'm working for company X - here's their website" and not think "well OK - let's see something up on that website confirming what you say."
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October 05, 2012, 05:00:03 AM
 #110

I had thought about that issue... that the costs would come from the shareholders.  But I guess no matter what you do the insurance would come from users directly as trades, or indirectly as a fee to the company.  There are many examples of companies that opted for insurance via CPA.  I think with this system you're better off because you know the funds are actually there. 

You're right too.  Some people would shy away from the insured companies because of the extra trade costs.  Other people would be attracted to them knowing that there's something there if they bet incorrectly.  That's 100% their call.

One of the other things you have to remember is that to a certain extent, this is to protect people from themselves.  People make "poor" investments on a regular basis.  I think it makes sense that these poor investments have a transaction tax to make you think before trading and provide a buffer when things go bad.

As for the funds sitting idle.  Not sure what to do with those.  Addressing the "many years down the road" question though, since the point of the insurance is against scamming, not business failure, then after 18 months or 24 months of proven stability a motion could be voted on to return the funds to the shareholders?  I'm not super worried about it because with cryptocoin it seems like there's more deflation than inflation.  Your coins gain value even just sitting there for the most part.  I don't think it would be a good idea to try investing them in anything. 

And my last argument for this is that the transaction fee would be very, very small.  0.1% is 0.1 LTC on a 100 LTC share.  Not nothing, but it shouldn't be enough to keep people from trading.



For the newly created companies, vulnerable to fraud immediately following the IPO, I think we would have to cap the funds you can raise on a new company.  Regardless of insurance or not and keeping in mind that this is one tool in what I hope to be a toolbox of many.  I think it could help mitigate some of the craziness because you dramatically increase the amount of trouble a scammer has to go through for a large payout.


I 100% agree that a business plan should be a requirement for verification.  I'm just not sure how to judge them pass/fail.

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October 05, 2012, 05:07:40 AM
 #111

I had thought about that issue... that the costs would come from the shareholders.  But I guess no matter what you do the insurance would come from users directly as trades, or indirectly as a fee to the company.  There are many examples of companies that opted for insurance via CPA.  I think with this system you're better off because you know the funds are actually there. 

You're right too.  Some people would shy away from the insured companies because of the extra trade costs.  Other people would be attracted to them knowing that there's something there if they bet incorrectly.  That's 100% their call.

One of the other things you have to remember is that to a certain extent, this is to protect people from themselves.  People make "poor" investments on a regular basis.  I think it makes sense that these poor investments have a transaction tax to make you think before trading and provide a buffer when things go bad.

As for the funds sitting idle.  Not sure what to do with those.  Addressing the "many years down the road" question though, since the point of the insurance is against scamming, not business failure, then after 18 months or 24 months of proven stability a motion could be voted on to return the funds to the shareholders?  I'm not super worried about it because with cryptocoin it seems like there's more deflation than inflation.  Your coins gain value even just sitting there for the most part.  I don't think it would be a good idea to try investing them in anything. 

And my last argument for this is that the transaction fee would be very, very small.  0.1% is 0.1 LTC on a 100 LTC share.  Not nothing, but it shouldn't be enough to keep people from trading.



For the newly created companies, vulnerable to fraud immediately following the IPO, I think we would have to cap the funds you can raise on a new company.  Regardless of insurance or not and keeping in mind that this is one tool in what I hope to be a toolbox of many.  I think it could help mitigate some of the craziness because you dramatically increase the amount of trouble a scammer has to go through for a large payout.


I 100% agree that a business plan should be a requirement for verification.  I'm just not sure how to judge them pass/fail.



The business plan thing is a hard one.

If you start policing certain things you are the liable to police everything and if you let a scam through people will tend to say "but you vetted it"


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October 05, 2012, 06:04:51 AM
 #112

And my last argument for this is that the transaction fee would be very, very small.  0.1% is 0.1 LTC on a 100 LTC share.  Not nothing, but it shouldn't be enough to keep people from trading.

Problem is that if the transaction fee is tiny - so is the insurance pay-out.

If I invest 1000 LTC in something, it fails/vanishes and I get 1 LTC back I wouldn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling that it had been insured.  It would feel more like adding insult to injury.  You can't have a tiny insurance charge that provides significant cover if every asset has its own pool (and you can't pool the insurance premiums from all assets or it just ends up with the good businesses paying off people who invested in scammers - making HYIP's the best investment).

I should in fairness point out that the proposed insurance has a downside for me that it doesn't for most others.  I mainly day trade - so I'd be paying this 0.1% every trade (or every other trade) without receiving any real benefit of it.  The (majority of the) benefit of insurance gos to those who hold securities long-term, not those whose hands it briefly passes through.  It thus acts as a disincentive to actively trade - as it automatically reduces your margin.

In most cases it wouldn't deter me from trading/investing in a security.  The exception being where someone proudly trumpeted that their IPO/security was "Insured" (unless they'd be trading for ages).  Those I'd stay a mile away from - as they were either scammers, lying or didn't realise just how irrelavnt being insured for 0.1% of your capital is.

Do also bear in mind that the actual time-scale before a 0.1% insurance fee fully covers the IPO is  immense.  to get 100% coverage every share issued has to change hands 1000 times.  i.e. nearly 3 years if every single share is traded every single day.  In practice the insurance cover would never get there - the asset issuer would die of old age first.

For the newly created companies, vulnerable to fraud immediately following the IPO, I think we would have to cap the funds you can raise on a new company.  Regardless of insurance or not and keeping in mind that this is one tool in what I hope to be a toolbox of many.  I think it could help mitigate some of the craziness because you dramatically increase the amount of trouble a scammer has to go through for a large payout.

I 100% agree that a business plan should be a requirement for verification.  I'm just not sure how to judge them pass/fail.

Not convinced a hard cap on funds for new companies is good.  Consider ASICMINER - think their IPO was 10k+ BTC.  That's going to be above any meaningful cap you'd set.  A cap actually deters the very IPOs we want to see.  The market really doesnt need more people trying to take 10-20% or so of profits from mining whilst passing the risk on to investors.  Nor does it need more "Investment Managers" whose plan is to dump cash into fairly random securities, take a cut of the dividends themselves whilst ignoring any loss to investors as the value of those investments plummets.  We need companies that will actually produce something tangible (be it hardware, software, a service or whatever).  And those companies won't be able to start with a cap on funds that is low enough to deter scammers.

Rather, I'd suggest you consider tiers of companies.  With each tier having increasingly difficult requirements (in terms of contract clarity, business plan, revenue forecasts etc) and also significantly larger fees (to cover the time you'd need to invest to check they met the requirements).

So bottom tier could  be 250 LTC fee, requirements just that they cover the basic elements in their contract (purpose of investment, type of security, rules on issuing new paper, profit-split/fees mechanism, closing-down process etc).  Maximum market cap for these maybe 20,000 LTC.

Next tier maybe 1000 LTC fee, market cap 250k LTC, requirements added of a more comprehensive contract, some form of business plan including at least a theoretical demonstration of long-term profit for investors, and a sample weekly or monthly report containing all essential figures investors would need to see).

Third tier, 10,000 LTC fee, requirements to include proof of incorporation, details of company's lawyer, proof of a place of business etc.  No market cap.

All you're asking for in reality is that if the asset issuer wants a decent amount of funds they demonstrate that they at least have the potential to make investors a long-term profit.  Any good asset issuer will already have produced that before even considering raising funds.  It'll not just reduce scammers - but get rid of all the just out of school wannabe millionaires who think that, by some magic means, if they can just raise a big chunk of cash then profits will just naturally fly in their direction.  The latter are in many worse more damaging to the community than scammers imo.

And obviously once a company's established they could move up to next tier by providing the additional information and paying the extra fee.

Just an idea on a different approach to it.  Upgrading companies market cap based on profits would obviously be the absolute worst way - as that would prevent genuine start-ups with a medium to long-term plan from incubating and allow ponzis free rein.
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October 05, 2012, 06:15:43 AM
 #113

I should in fairness point out that the proposed insurance has a downside for me that it doesn't for most others.  I mainly day trade - so I'd be paying this 0.1% every trade (or every other trade) without receiving any real benefit of it.  The (majority of the) benefit of insurance gos to those who hold securities long-term, not those whose hands it briefly passes through.  It thus acts as a disincentive to actively trade - as it automatically reduces your margin.

This is why I suggested having a simple binary market for insurance.  One party would may bet that the security would not pay its contractually obligated dividends, or bet that the bond would default, or whatever.  A speculator would bet that the operator would pay a dividend, or would not default.  It would have to be integrated into the exchange/brokerage site so that it would have maximum exposure.  It would allow investors to voluntarily purchase the insurance and have speculators take on the risk and not the exchange.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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October 05, 2012, 07:37:23 AM
 #114

My messages get shorter the later it gets, heh, sorry, way past my bedtime here.

I should in fairness point out that the proposed insurance has a downside for me that it doesn't for most others.  I mainly day trade - so I'd be paying this 0.1% every trade (or every other trade) without receiving any real benefit of it.  The (majority of the) benefit of insurance gos to those who hold securities long-term, not those whose hands it briefly passes through.  It thus acts as a disincentive to actively trade - as it automatically reduces your margin.

The assets would have to trade hands 500 times, not 1000.  The transaction fees are paid by both sides.

I thought about trying to pool the insurance... discounted it pretty quickly, it doesn't seem like a good idea.

I hear you with it hitting the day traders harder.  It would hit the bottom line for LTC-GLOBAL a little bit as well.  (reduced trades)  Without people wanting to invest long term though you wouldn't really have a platform to day trade on, so I suspect increasing confidence in the platform would ultimately benefit everyone.

I like the three tiered approach.  Makes it worth my time to do the verification process.  I liked where GLBSE was going with black, pink, and blue markets.  In part largely because people KNOW a black market is stupid high risk, a pink market is high risk, and a blue market would be medium risk.  (I don't consider any crypto-assets low risk.)

This is why I suggested having a simple binary market for insurance.  One party would may bet that the security would not pay its contractually obligated dividends, or bet that the bond would default, or whatever.  A speculator would bet that the operator would pay a dividend, or would not default.  It would have to be integrated into the exchange/brokerage site so that it would have maximum exposure.  It would allow investors to voluntarily purchase the insurance and have speculators take on the risk and not the exchange.

That's an interesting thought.  A little side market on every asset that pays or doesn't pay based on if the contract is met or not?  Can you detail how you would see it function?  Who determines when an asset defaults?  What if there's gray area due to contradictions in the contract?

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October 05, 2012, 07:45:14 AM
 #115

My messages get shorter the later it gets, heh, sorry, way past my bedtime here.

I should in fairness point out that the proposed insurance has a downside for me that it doesn't for most others.  I mainly day trade - so I'd be paying this 0.1% every trade (or every other trade) without receiving any real benefit of it.  The (majority of the) benefit of insurance gos to those who hold securities long-term, not those whose hands it briefly passes through.  It thus acts as a disincentive to actively trade - as it automatically reduces your margin.

The assets would have to trade hands 500 times, not 1000.  The transaction fees are paid by both sides.

I thought about trying to pool the insurance... discounted it pretty quickly, it doesn't seem like a good idea.

I hear you with it hitting the day traders harder.  It would hit the bottom line for LTC-GLOBAL a little bit as well.  (reduced trades)  Without people wanting to invest long term though you wouldn't really have a platform to day trade on, so I suspect increasing confidence in the platform would ultimately benefit everyone.

I like the three tiered approach.  Makes it worth my time to do the verification process.  I liked where GLBSE was going with black, pink, and blue markets.  In part largely because people KNOW a black market is stupid high risk, a pink market is high risk, and a blue market would be medium risk.  (I don't consider any crypto-assets low risk.)

This is why I suggested having a simple binary market for insurance.  One party would may bet that the security would not pay its contractually obligated dividends, or bet that the bond would default, or whatever.  A speculator would bet that the operator would pay a dividend, or would not default.  It would have to be integrated into the exchange/brokerage site so that it would have maximum exposure.  It would allow investors to voluntarily purchase the insurance and have speculators take on the risk and not the exchange.

That's an interesting thought.  A little side market on every asset that pays or doesn't pay based on if the contract is met or not?  Can you detail how you would see it function?  Who determines when an asset defaults?  What if there's gray area due to contradictions in the contract?



Every time a security gets created   a "fail" or "succeed" asset is created on the "prediction market" people can bet on default.

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October 05, 2012, 07:57:20 AM
 #116

This is why I suggested having a simple binary market for insurance.  One party would may bet that the security would not pay its contractually obligated dividends, or bet that the bond would default, or whatever.  A speculator would bet that the operator would pay a dividend, or would not default.  It would have to be integrated into the exchange/brokerage site so that it would have maximum exposure.  It would allow investors to voluntarily purchase the insurance and have speculators take on the risk and not the exchange.

That's an interesting thought.  A little side market on every asset that pays or doesn't pay based on if the contract is met or not?  Can you detail how you would see it function?  Who determines when an asset defaults?  What if there's gray area due to contradictions in the contract?



Every time a security gets created   a "fail" or "succeed" asset is created on the "prediction market" people can bet on default.
[/quote]

Right, but who's the judge of when it is in default?  What if the contract is sufficiently generic as to have a large gray area where you could say it looks like it's in default, or you could say it has not?
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October 05, 2012, 08:02:37 AM
 #117

This is why I suggested having a simple binary market for insurance.  One party would may bet that the security would not pay its contractually obligated dividends, or bet that the bond would default, or whatever.  A speculator would bet that the operator would pay a dividend, or would not default.  It would have to be integrated into the exchange/brokerage site so that it would have maximum exposure.  It would allow investors to voluntarily purchase the insurance and have speculators take on the risk and not the exchange.

That's an interesting thought.  A little side market on every asset that pays or doesn't pay based on if the contract is met or not?  Can you detail how you would see it function?  Who determines when an asset defaults?  What if there's gray area due to contradictions in the contract?



Every time a security gets created   a "fail" or "succeed" asset is created on the "prediction market" people can bet on default.

Right, but who's the judge of when it is in default?  What if the contract is sufficiently generic as to have a large gray area where you could say it looks like it's in default, or you could say it has not?
[/quote]

Its true there is probably not a way to automate it. You can do something like if it misses 2 dividends in a row it is in default. But then some securities dont pay dividends. Theres probably a way to crowdsource it.

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October 05, 2012, 08:34:04 AM
 #118

My messages get shorter the later it gets, heh, sorry, way past my bedtime here.

I should in fairness point out that the proposed insurance has a downside for me that it doesn't for most others.  I mainly day trade - so I'd be paying this 0.1% every trade (or every other trade) without receiving any real benefit of it.  The (majority of the) benefit of insurance gos to those who hold securities long-term, not those whose hands it briefly passes through.  It thus acts as a disincentive to actively trade - as it automatically reduces your margin.

The assets would have to trade hands 500 times, not 1000.  The transaction fees are paid by both sides.

I thought about trying to pool the insurance... discounted it pretty quickly, it doesn't seem like a good idea.

I hear you with it hitting the day traders harder.  It would hit the bottom line for LTC-GLOBAL a little bit as well.  (reduced trades)  Without people wanting to invest long term though you wouldn't really have a platform to day trade on, so I suspect increasing confidence in the platform would ultimately benefit everyone.

I like the three tiered approach.  Makes it worth my time to do the verification process.  I liked where GLBSE was going with black, pink, and blue markets.  In part largely because people KNOW a black market is stupid high risk, a pink market is high risk, and a blue market would be medium risk.  (I don't consider any crypto-assets low risk.)

This is why I suggested having a simple binary market for insurance.  One party would may bet that the security would not pay its contractually obligated dividends, or bet that the bond would default, or whatever.  A speculator would bet that the operator would pay a dividend, or would not default.  It would have to be integrated into the exchange/brokerage site so that it would have maximum exposure.  It would allow investors to voluntarily purchase the insurance and have speculators take on the risk and not the exchange.

That's an interesting thought.  A little side market on every asset that pays or doesn't pay based on if the contract is met or not?  Can you detail how you would see it function?  Who determines when an asset defaults?  What if there's gray area due to contradictions in the contract?



There are some things that could be set in stone.  For example, dividends will be paid every Monday, or 0.03 BTC (I don't know a realistic litecoin number) on Thursdays.

They could only be matched with very strict asset contracts.  Default is a grey area as many times in an asset contract default is not defined.  It could be all defined in the insurance contract.

I did give this a try on GLBSE but there was not a lot of demand.  I suspect it was because it was not marketed well.  Having the ability to bet right next to the asset's buy or sell page would drastically increase awareness.  There was also one problem with the contract as I did one for TYGRR-B Bond.  I stated that it would pay X bitcoins over the course of 30 days.  A floating point rounding error (I think) on GLBSE caused the total dividends to not equal X, so those kinds of issues need to be taken into account.

You can search for the assets under the Security forum by trying HEDGE.GIGAMINING.LONG

I also think these kinds of binary insurance betting should be very short term and may require the exchange to act as the counterparty.  There are some good and bad models to use for binary trading.  GLBSE had a beta binary trading platform for about a month.  It used a bad model.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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October 05, 2012, 09:37:18 AM
 #119

The binary betting model does raise some interesting possibilities e.g :

For a low-dividend investment you could end up being better off betting on it paying than actually investing.

You could create an asset that appeared really terrible, buy up shares yourself (so that it had an obvious need to pay dividends), do absolutely nothing with it and just bet on the pay side.  As you'd have little liabilities (hardly anyone invested but yourself) you should make a decent profit off everyone betting against it.

Scammers could bet against their own assets on sock-puppets accounts to make even more profit.

And the last two are the real problem with it - the asset owner KNOWS what the outcome of the bet will be (if it's short-term) so can flood that side of the bet on a second account (or via a partner), meaning noone legitimately betting gets any sort of decent value.
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October 05, 2012, 10:00:06 AM
 #120

The binary betting model does raise some interesting possibilities e.g :

For a low-dividend investment you could end up being better off betting on it paying than actually investing.

You could create an asset that appeared really terrible, buy up shares yourself (so that it had an obvious need to pay dividends), do absolutely nothing with it and just bet on the pay side.  As you'd have little liabilities (hardly anyone invested but yourself) you should make a decent profit off everyone betting against it.

Scammers could bet against their own assets on sock-puppets accounts to make even more profit.

And the last two are the real problem with it - the asset owner KNOWS what the outcome of the bet will be (if it's short-term) so can flood that side of the bet on a second account (or via a partner), meaning noone legitimately betting gets any sort of decent value.

These are all very good points, but one way to resolve this is by only listing reputable people with real companies.  Will it be any different when we are able to short these securities and the asset operator misses a dividend or gives some bad communication while he or she is shorting the asset?

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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