Greece's own bitcoin-like money

[johnyj]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-unorthodox-plan-may-keep-greece-in-the-eurozone-2015-04-08

To create the fiscal flexibility that Greece’s economy so sorely needs to reinvigorate economic growth, meet its debt payments and, ultimately, stay in the eurozone, the Greek government could adopt what economists at the Levy Institute call a “parallel financial system” that would allow the government to make payments without using hard currency.

Simply stated, this would be an IOU.

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As Greece appears to be hurtling toward insolvency, and an exit from the eurozone is back on the table, here’s how the IOU plan — which would allow Greece to increase government spending without further burdening itself with interest-accruing debt — might work.

According to Robert Parenteau, a research associate at the Levy Economist Institute of Bard College who wrote a blog post advocating the IOUs — or “tax anticipation notes,” as he termed them — they would have a few defining characteristics:

-    The IOUs would have an interest rate of zero.
-    They would be perpetual bonds with no date of maturity that would require the Greek government to repay the principal.
-    They would be transferable — just like bearer bonds.
-    Holders of the bonds could use them to pay taxes, with an accepted value of parity with the euro.

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Greek officials have definitely considered the plan. In a blog post from February 2014, Greek Economist Yanis Varoufakis, now Greece’s finance minister, wrote a blog post describing a bitcoin-like alternative currency that would be backed by future taxes.

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[NUFCrichard]

It's not really like Bitcoin though is it?
It is more like a convertable 2nd currency, so that they can print themselves out of troubles, then at their leisure pay back what they owe in euros in the future.

I don't think it would work, and it sounds like a default by another name.  They should just leave the euro and start a fresh.

[qiwoman2]

Yes I tweeted Varoufakis this and Tspipras as soon as they were elected in..I wonder if they actually read my tweet lol. I told them open up Greece's own crypto and back it up by assets so peeps who invest may earn a little roi also and the country could be solvent again in no time.. It wouldn't even need Europe either.

[aso118]

-    The IOUs would have an interest rate of zero.
-    They would be perpetual bonds with no date of maturity that would require the Greek government to repay the principal.
-    They would be transferable — just like bearer bonds.
-    Holders of the bonds could use them to pay taxes, with an accepted value of parity with the euro.

The greek government has some restrictions on the issue of debt. I am sure that the current bond holders will look at these IOUs as the issuance of additional debt. That would queer things up.

[johnyj]

Yes, it is a second currency in its essential. If this happens, it opened a new era of multiple parallel currency, which directly break the monopole situation of Euro

Then people will also adopt other currencies like bitcoin, it is worldwide accepted, unlike some local currency that only Greek government accept. And once it is accepted in Greece, it will have the first country backing it with its full economy, and other countries will follow

[bitbunnny]

But can that save Greece from total disaster they are heading to?

[thaaanos]

But can that save Greece from total disaster they are heading to?

lol arent we all heading to disaster?

Anyway that IOU will probably be a corporate game Greeks will be oblivious to it. As for that helping bitcoin in any way? nah the IOU have value because Greece said so, Greece will keep clear of crypros

[countryfree]

Is this monopoly money? Who wants that?
I, for sure, would never accept to be paid by a Greek IOU.

[tyz]

It must be a crypto currency with an integrated 10%-20% inflation rate per year. A country like Greece with almost no producing industry and inefficient administrative authorities will not get along with a deflationary currency like bitcoin is.

[manselr]

The People of Greece might want to take it a step further and exchange their bitcoins for XMR. This allows for instant, anonymous transactions.  The tech could be layered right on top of any "e-card" the Greek government issues.  Even without that layer, all they would have to do is get their own wallet and use that with other people who only use their own wallets, such that the .gov has no idea if they are Greek, Americans, or Martians.

[maku]

The People of Greece might want to take it a step further and exchange their bitcoins for XMR. This allows for instant, anonymous transactions.  The tech could be layered right on top of any "e-card" the Greek government issues.  Even without that layer, all they would have to do is get their own wallet and use that with other people who only use their own wallets, such that the .gov has no idea if they are Greek, Americans, or Martians.

So you are telling people to ditch their bitcoins, sell everything and buy monero? Just to be sure that your transactions would be untraceable... No. I will tell you this, while monero could be 'safer' and more private than bitcoin in general but it is still altcoin, and as every altcoin it is destined to fall. It would be like investing in sinking ship for all these people.

[Mike Christ]

What they need to do is get out of this political-centric lifestyle (i.e. indebting their children so they can laze around today), and get back to work so they can pay back what they owe to the rest of the world.  Instead, they got all these fancy new ideas purported to help the economy, just like all "well-meaning idealists" love to do, and which will worsen the problem and result in a new idea which will be purported to help the economy...  But all it is, is for the "farmers" to find new ways to prod the "cows" to produce more milk (that is, at this point in Greece, the "cows" just aren't producing much at all), while refusing to give the "cows" enough space to actually produce since, y'know, that'd cut into the "farmer"'s paycheck and fundamental life role, which is to be narcissistic and persuasive enough to convince the "cows" that "farmers" know what's best for them.  To escape the political-centric lifestyle is as simple as rejecting the notion that people are cows in need of farming; there has never, ever, ever been political action to have productive and beneficial results in the long-term, so long as we don't include "inaction" as a form of action.  If you've never read The Road to Serfdom, now's a good time, so you can see what this is leading to (here it is in comic format: https://imgur.com/a/y0d33 )  Greece doesn't need any more ideas or plans, they need to go back to what worked.

Anyway.  I'm interested to see if Greece will pull out of this situation or continue to spiral into a North Korea sort of "democracy", where the political owners have to literally force their citizens to work to continue on as a political unit (it just so happens, North Korea has the worst economy in the world; how they're yet a smoldering hole in the ground eludes me.)  The fools in Greece fell for the thousands-years-old "we can give you everything you'll ever want if you just follow us with complete faith" gag that swallowed up so many nations in the past; they're just calling it socialism nowadays and painting it like it's something grand, when it's just more of the same that's been screwing them over: political spending sends wrong signals to market-participants makes the economy slow down because nobody knows what the market is actually like in reality anymore (plus, handouts disincentivize people from working because shit, they can just "tax the wealthy", e.g. borrow with no intent of paying back, and never work again!), nobody knows how to allocate resources effectively or productively anymore (least of all politicians; you can look at the USSR for how it worked out when market signals were almost completely obscured and their central planners had to look at the American economy to have any sense of how to allocate anything), nobody can generate capital correctly which leads to spending the capital the generations prior built up until no capital exists anymore, all that prosperity people produced via capitalist principles is gone, and all that's left is you, your state, and your compulsory participation in keeping your nation surviving at a baseline level, which they will say is owed of you for your "right to live there."

[ashour]

I don't think  Greece would use their own crypto I mean what's the point ? It would be worthless just like printing drachmas. If tey used a crypto currency they should use bitcoin which is used worldwide and has a huge volume.

[aso118]

Is this monopoly money? Who wants that?
I, for sure, would never accept to be paid by a Greek IOU.

What is really going to happen is that all these Greek IOUs will end up back with the government in the form of taxes.
The Greek government will have to pay bondholders in Euros, but they will have only these IOUs. They will regret the day they introduced them. 

[thaaanos]

Is this monopoly money? Who wants that?
I, for sure, would never accept to be paid by a Greek IOU.

What is really going to happen is that all these Greek IOUs will end up back with the government in the form of taxes.
The Greek government will have to pay bondholders in Euros, but they will have only these IOUs. They will regret the day they introduced them. 

those IOUs would be sold for euros man. The idea is like tax prepayment at a discount. of course that is one time effect

[thaaanos]

What they need to do is get out of this political-centric lifestyle (i.e. indebting their children so they can laze around today), and get back to work so they can pay back what they owe to the rest of the world.  Instead, they got all these fancy new ideas purported to help the economy, just like all "well-meaning idealists" love to do, and which will worsen the problem and result in a new idea which will be purported to help the economy...  But all it is, is for the "farmers" to find new ways to prod the "cows" to produce more milk (that is, at this point in Greece, the "cows" just aren't producing much at all), while refusing to give the "cows" enough space to actually produce since, y'know, that'd cut into the "farmer"'s paycheck and fundamental life role, which is to be narcissistic and persuasive enough to convince the "cows" that "farmers" know what's best for them.  To escape the political-centric lifestyle is as simple as rejecting the notion that people are cows in need of farming; there has never, ever, ever been political action to have productive and beneficial results in the long-term, so long as we don't include "inaction" as a form of action.  If you've never read The Road to Serfdom, now's a good time, so you can see what this is leading to (here it is in comic format: https://imgur.com/a/y0d33 )  Greece doesn't need any more ideas or plans, they need to go back to what worked.

Anyway.  I'm interested to see if Greece will pull out of this situation or continue to spiral into a North Korea sort of "democracy", where the political owners have to literally force their citizens to work to continue on as a political unit (it just so happens, North Korea has the worst economy in the world; how they're yet a smoldering hole in the ground eludes me.)  The fools in Greece fell for the thousands-years-old "we can give you everything you'll ever want if you just follow us with complete faith" gag that swallowed up so many nations in the past; they're just calling it socialism nowadays and painting it like it's something grand, when it's just more of the same that's been screwing them over: political spending sends wrong signals to market-participants makes the economy slow down because nobody knows what the market is actually like in reality anymore (plus, handouts disincentivize people from working because shit, they can just "tax the wealthy", e.g. borrow with no intent of paying back, and never work again!), nobody knows how to allocate resources effectively or productively anymore (least of all politicians; you can look at the USSR for how it worked out when market signals were almost completely obscured and their central planners had to look at the American economy to have any sense of how to allocate anything), nobody can generate capital correctly which leads to spending the capital the generations prior built up until no capital exists anymore, all that prosperity people produced via capitalist principles is gone, and all that's left is you, your state, and your compulsory participation in keeping your nation surviving at a baseline level, which they will say is owed of you for your "right to live there."

blah blah blah they are in trouble so it must be their fault...
to get back to work you need at first to have a work. so go on moralize that if you whip yourself enough you will find salvation... people dont confuse economics with theology please

[neurotypical]

Kinda relevant, here's a documentary with Varoufakis speaking about Bitcoin (it's a Bitcoin documentary by a student)

http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-bitcoin-documentary-2015-4

Im sure the april fools joke was not 100% a joke, he's definitely aware on Bitcoin... we'll see what happens in the future, definitely interesting times ahead.

[hvezdasmrti]

Time to make a new pump and dump greeks aurora (titanic)? 

[cellard]

Time to make a new pump and dump greeks aurora (titanic)? 

Lol, I remember AUR, I could have made so much money but I was greedy and didn't buy. That pump was epic. As far as I can remember not any other coin reached 0.1 BTC with such supply.

[johnyj]

This logic of "saving Greece" is flawed, because it should be treated as an indicator of the EU's problems. Some other members of the Union are also balancing on the edge with high loans that aren't being repaid.
Those of us who know some basic economics know that these fake loans are impossible to repay as there's just not enough money to cover them and nobody is going to loan money to Greece, because they will never be able to repay it. The only way would be to turn people into slaves, cut their wages, take their savings Cyprus style and sell some land.

Exactly, Greece is only the one to blame, if Greece is not in EMU, then Italian will be the one to blame. It is impossible to repay the loan in today's debt based fiat money system, if some country indeed repaid their loan, then some other country must be heavily indebted. And as a whole, EU must get more and more debt, just like US. Debt and money supply must go up exponentially, otherwise there will be default and much of the wealth will belong to money creator

By quickly increase the productivity, people can make a little bit more to repay the loan, but their increased income just make money more scarce, thus more money will need to be created in the forms of loan, so more work = more debt, the harder people work, the heavier the debt of the whole nation will become. There is no escape