Crazy idea about exiting the system.

[BADecker]

...You want to use the system... take the system down. It may not be easy, but people are doing it all the time...

Do this.
Doing what you suggest lets "them" win.

Absolutely not. Here is why. The American system is strongly in favor of the people. We know, because it has taken them 200 years to actually crack what the founding fathers set in place... and that is only crack it. If they could have beaten us, they would have. The system is too strong for them, in our favor.

If we stop using the system... if we toss the system out... they will take us over in a minute. What we need is training about how to use the system better. The training isn't in the things that the patriot gurus say. It is in common sense.

Common sense says:
1. If somebody wrongs you, and won't correct what he did, take him to court;
2. Make it a jury trial, even for the tiny things;
3. The judge is not the judge; the jury is the judge; the judge only exists to keep order in court and pronounce the judgments of the jury;
4. Jury nullification is the method whereby the jury can remake the law, judging both the merits of the case, and the legality of the law.

Teach the jury about their strength.

Anyone who wants to do away with the system is either ignorant of the benefits that it has, or they are against what is good for the people.

There is only one thing that stands between the people and total freedom from government. It is the knowledge of how to use the system against itself.

Use the system against itself by countering the man/woman in the governmental office, not the office.

Do you hate the IRS? They don't stand a chance against you if you resist the agent personally, for doing you wrong, taking your property.

Possibly the strongest foundational court rule is, the plaintiff must appear... in court, on the stand, to be questioned by you, a man or woman. Stand as a man, present in a court of record, not represented, and not representing yourself. Require the plaintiff to take the stand under oath or affirmation and state the things to be true that he alleges against you. If the plaintiff is a corporation like THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, he can't get on the stand. He can't speak, because he has no voice box. You win by default.

Start learning how to do this. This is the start of your training. Train now, before you need it.

Do you have a relative in prison? He/she is your property. Learn how to require government to give you your property back through a simple letter-writing and then court process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkAHRzuiOA&list=PLHrkQxgz0mg6kUBciD-HIvTXByqjcIZ-D

[Lorenzo]

It would be better to live somewhere very isolated but still hospitable which a desert environment isn't  You could buy a plot of land in the woods and next to a river or lake or perhaps even the ocean. Sometimes these can go for quite cheap. You would be able to grow your own plants in your backyard (which would be unlimited in size), set up a greenhouse, and have solar panels installed on your roof. You would also have to set up a rainwater collection system, as you said.

Living next to a body of water also has the additional advantage that you could take up fishing for additional food.



If you have even more money, then you could buy a private island. The cheapest ones can even be bought for under $200,000:

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/islands/american-island
http://www.privateislandsonline.com/islands/sweet-island

In fact, this is what I intend to do although I still need more money to achieve this goal. Unfortunately, I'll probably still have to pay property taxes/rates and perhaps income tax too for those things that can't easily be bought with Bitcoin (e.g. groceries).

[notlist3d]

And then your little house gets destroyed by a massive storm, knocking out your power forever unless you're an electrician and know your shit. Then, you would need access to get more food and such. Basically what I'm saying is that you have to be rich. You need stuff airdropped to your little island.

Once you have enough money to exit the system, I doubt you will.

Ummm I have a tornado room that can handle pretty much any midwest storm.   So I'm not worried there.   

And having propane powering some things, and generator's I can turn on I am not to worried about small electrical outages.

I still say go with fertile land over a dessert.

When op says moving to a remote island, storms meaning it could destroy your entire home and flood you.

Also, good luck building that tornado room as well.

Took a special builder to do the storm room properly.  But once done it is very nice I have to admit I like it much more then the old cellar option.

And no it can not take floods, but in midwest don't have much flooding issues . 

[notlist3d]

...You want to use the system... take the system down. It may not be easy, but people are doing it all the time...

Do this.
Doing what you suggest lets "them" win.

Absolutely not. Here is why. The American system is strongly in favor of the people. We know, because it has taken them 200 years to actually crack what the founding fathers set in place... and that is only crack it. If they could have beaten us, they would have. The system is too strong for them, in our favor.

If we stop using the system... if we toss the system out... they will take us over in a minute. What we need is training about how to use the system better. The training isn't in the things that the patriot gurus say. It is in common sense.

Common sense says:
1. If somebody wrongs you, and won't correct what he did, take him to court;
2. Make it a jury trial, even for the tiny things;
3. The judge is not the judge; the jury is the judge; the judge only exists to keep order in court and pronounce the judgments of the jury;
4. Jury nullification is the method whereby the jury can remake the law, judging both the merits of the case, and the legality of the law.
....

Most things I would say do not make it to jury.   I think settlement is much more common.   The expense of having a jury trial on small items does happen, but most of time it's easier to have 2 lawyers talk and come up with a solution.

And I personally like the system.  I like having roads, police, fiiremen, ect, etc.   To not pay taxes and in middle of no where is kinda unrealistic.   I don't think you could even find to many places you could get your own country to do what you wish.

[BADecker]

Bills and the Collection Process – Karl Lentz (US) - http://shapefreedom.com/directory/bill-and-collection-process-us-karl-lentz/:

Bills and the collection process

You can send Anyone a “bill”, viz., to a person, a government agency, the Pope, The U.S. President, Anybody !

Ooh when You send a “bill”, make sure along with the ‘bill” is an ITEMIZED desciption of what the bill is about, the billing statement, it also may be called :

a ‘Statement of the Bill’
a ‘bill of particulars’, or ;
a ‘Documentary Draft’, or;
‘The Ledger based upon Statutes’, or;
‘The Total Value of TRUE BILL’

...

Or

“by their failure to respond to the bill, is a sign of “bad-faith” and that I will now take this ‘PRIVATE matter’ INTO the public VENUE”

Ooh, a great example is the IRS does this process in just ten(10) DAYS, When they do not receive a response to the BILLs they send out ;

17. AGAIN This NEW Letter You keep the Original, you will be sending them a COPY of a letter

18. Difference between this letter and the first series of letters is this Letter has to be NOTARIZED, ( U.C.C. 3-507, proof of failure to respond / “bad-faith” ) and it HAS to be Authenticated;

...

[ashour]

This concept sounds interesting  but it would need some financial support and willpower.

[Cryptowatch.com]

Not everybody lives in the US. Karl Lentz seems like an interesting case. From the brief time I looked into him, I read that he lived out of a container and used all his money to get back his child, a process that took 6 years. The state took his child because it had downs syndrome.

The way I see it, the court system enrich lawyers and the one with the most resources usually wins, unless you're unusually sharp and well educated and know how to fight the system. However, such cases can take years, and which sane person would use most of his productive years on such issues? To me it appears very stressfull, and to what benefit.

I "won" over a large organization once, but the stress and work leading up to that decision, and then the "payout" in the end, could not at all justify the fight done. Next time the chance for such a fight occurs, I will walk away and save myself the time. It is not worth it.

In my view, "the system" is better avoided as much as possible. The post of Lorenzo was interesting, who has not thought along his lines..

[ObscureBean]

Nah I couldn't do this the way you describe. If I'm gonna use niceties from modern society, like internet and other tech, it'll have to be 100% and I'd have to be in a city. Your idea is one I've fantasized about a lot but not with any tech. I simply can't be in nature (like long term) with laptops, mobile phones etc, I want the experience to be as pure as possible. Also I'd much rather be on a desert island as far as possible from the mainland and I would definitely not want to be part of a group. The ideal scenario would be that I have my girl with me and that's it  

EDIT - equally ideal would be one where I am alone on the island (not ever with friends or family though)

[shogdite]

.....
* Nobody nagging you.
.....

If you are married, this is an impossibilty


Best bet is to buy a small island (assuming you had the money), that way you would have no worries about violating local/national laws etc, you could do what the hell you like.

[Cryptowatch.com]

.....
* Nobody nagging you.
.....

If you are married, this is an impossibilty

Best bet is to buy a small island (assuming you had the money), that way you would have no worries about violating local/national laws etc, you could do what the hell you like.

Yes, I have been looking into that, and it's an interesting thought. I wonder if you'd get dead tired of the island after a while though, if it's not big enough. Also if you need a boat, you need money for fuel, unless it is solar powered. That would be a big expense post. You could of course have a rowing boat of sorts.

I have looked at many documentaries about people living remotely. Since I never tried it, I don't know if it is for me, but I'd like to try. One possibility is to try it part time without making a 100% commitment. What I do know is that I like nature a lot.

As for nagging, true women can be quite the naggers, some are worse than others though. If you want it entirely without noise, you have to go by yourself and perhaps a few animals. A dog always does what you want, so no nagging there.

Nah I couldn't do this the way you describe. If I'm gonna use niceties from modern society, like internet and other tech, it'll have to be 100% and I'd have to be in a city. Your idea is one I've fantasized about a lot but not with any tech. I simply can't be in nature (like long term) with laptops, mobile phones etc, I want the experience to be as pure as possible. Also I'd much rather be on a desert island as far as possible from the mainland and I would definitely not want to be part of a group. The ideal scenario would be that I have my girl with me and that's it  

EDIT - equally ideal would be one where I am alone on the island (not ever with friends or family though)

I think it is possible to combine it. For instance, if you have a cabin in the mountains, you could go hunting or fishing, and when you get home, you could kick back and watch some movie on your solar powered computer. It would not be a problem to bring with you 10000 film titles to the cabin. Would take some time to get through all of it. Also, if there's cell coverage, you'd have access to call people and to use the internet. I don't know how everything would feel without being able to communicate with other people at all. Even communicating with other people on the internet stimulates your intellect. It is quite possible to be an outdoors-kind-of-guy and at the same time thinker with electronics, write programs and communicate with others on the internet.

While cutting everything off and go "natural and pure" is a nice thought. I think I'd miss the intellectual input, also there are some products from the modern world I would not mind to have, both in the edible section and for hardware and other tools.

What I would really enjoy to avoid is Nepotism, Corruption, Pollution, Noise and other negative things that goes with the modern society of today.

There was a whole series I watched earlier on youtube with people who lived remote lives in places were most people would not live. I can't seem to find it again though. I imagine I would need to learn how to survive and not go cold turkey immediately.

[ObscureBean]

.....
* Nobody nagging you.
.....

If you are married, this is an impossibilty

Best bet is to buy a small island (assuming you had the money), that way you would have no worries about violating local/national laws etc, you could do what the hell you like.

Yes, I have been looking into that, and it's an interesting thought. I wonder if you'd get dead tired of the island after a while though, if it's not big enough. Also if you need a boat, you need money for fuel, unless it is solar powered. That would be a big expense post. You could of course have a rowing boat of sorts.

I have looked at many documentaries about people living remotely. Since I never tried it, I don't know if it is for me, but I'd like to try. One possibility is to try it part time without making a 100% commitment. What I do know is that I like nature a lot.

As for nagging, true women can be quite the naggers, some are worse than others though. If you want it entirely without noise, you have to go by yourself and perhaps a few animals. A dog always does what you want, so no nagging there.

Nah I couldn't do this the way you describe. If I'm gonna use niceties from modern society, like internet and other tech, it'll have to be 100% and I'd have to be in a city. Your idea is one I've fantasized about a lot but not with any tech. I simply can't be in nature (like long term) with laptops, mobile phones etc, I want the experience to be as pure as possible. Also I'd much rather be on a desert island as far as possible from the mainland and I would definitely not want to be part of a group. The ideal scenario would be that I have my girl with me and that's it  

EDIT - equally ideal would be one where I am alone on the island (not ever with friends or family though)

I think it is possible to combine it. For instance, if you have a cabin in the mountains, you could go hunting or fishing, and when you get home, you could kick back and watch some movie on your solar powered computer. It would not be a problem to bring with you 10000 film titles to the cabin. Would take some time to get through all of it. Also, if there's cell coverage, you'd have access to call people and to use the internet. I don't know how everything would feel without being able to communicate with other people at all. Even communicating with other people on the internet stimulates your intellect. It is quite possible to be an outdoors-kind-of-guy and at the same time thinker with electronics, write programs and communicate with others on the internet.

While cutting everything off and go "natural and pure" is a nice thought. I think I'd miss the intellectual input, also there are some products from the modern world I would not mind to have, both in the edible section and for hardware and other tools.

What I would really enjoy to avoid is Nepotism, Corruption, Pollution, Noise and other negative things that goes with the modern society of today.

There was a whole series I watched earlier on youtube with people who lived remote lives in places were most people would not live. I can't seem to find it again though. I imagine I would need to learn how to survive and not go cold turkey immediately.

Thing about intellectual input is that I'm not hungry for it at all. I play a LOT of chess and video games at home and I always have my earphones on listening to music whenever I go out but I don't miss those at all or even think about them when I'm out in nature. It's almost like my mind go into hibernation or something lol. I did some pretty long treks in the Himalayas when I was backpacking across SE Asia and I never once missed city comfort. I walked for 1 week up the mountain, in the middle of nowhere by myself, just me, a rucksack with bare necessities and a sleeping bag  That's my best life experience so far. Seriously wish I could've stayed there forever lol.

Don't know if you've seen this one but here's a nice long documentary about a couple living alone in the middle of nowhere in Alaska. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0rZn8HFmQ

[Cryptowatch.com]

Thing about intellectual input is that I'm not hungry for it at all. I play a LOT of chess and video games at home and I always have my earphones on listening to music whenever I go out but I don't miss those at all or even think about them when I'm out in nature. It's almost like my mind go into hibernation or something lol. I did some pretty long treks in the Himalayas when I was backpacking across SE Asia and I never once missed city comfort. I walked for 1 week up the mountain, in the middle of nowhere by myself, just me, a rucksack with bare necessities and a sleeping bag  That's my best life experience so far. Seriously wish I could've stayed there forever lol.

Don't know if you've seen this one but here's a nice long documentary about a couple living alone in the middle of nowhere in Alaska. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0rZn8HFmQ

Just a practical question: How did you get food on your long trek? Did you bring money and bought it along, did you bring it all with your, or did you harvest from nature? Which aspects of the trek was most appealing to you?

As for intellectual input, a period without much of it is nice, but eventually, If you lived in a cabin in the woods, at one point, you would miss to read, communicate and learn.

[ObscureBean]

Thing about intellectual input is that I'm not hungry for it at all. I play a LOT of chess and video games at home and I always have my earphones on listening to music whenever I go out but I don't miss those at all or even think about them when I'm out in nature. It's almost like my mind go into hibernation or something lol. I did some pretty long treks in the Himalayas when I was backpacking across SE Asia and I never once missed city comfort. I walked for 1 week up the mountain, in the middle of nowhere by myself, just me, a rucksack with bare necessities and a sleeping bag  That's my best life experience so far. Seriously wish I could've stayed there forever lol.

Don't know if you've seen this one but here's a nice long documentary about a couple living alone in the middle of nowhere in Alaska. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0rZn8HFmQ

Just a practical question: How did you get food on your long trek? Did you bring money and bought it along, did you bring it all with your, or did you harvest from nature? Which aspects of the trek was most appealing to you?

As for intellectual input, a period without much of it is nice, but eventually, If you lived in a cabin in the woods, at one point, you would miss to read, communicate and learn.

Sure I had money with me, it wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I climbed up to 4400m but already at 2500 - 3000 m, you can barely grow anything and as you go up to 4000m there is practically no life around, no grass or animals, it's just rocks, dust, ice and wind  If it was possible to be self-sufficient up there, like live off the land, I would've lost myself in the wilderness and not come back lol. I actually overstayed my visa by more than a year  Those mountains are out of this world.

[Cryptowatch.com]

Thing about intellectual input is that I'm not hungry for it at all. I play a LOT of chess and video games at home and I always have my earphones on listening to music whenever I go out but I don't miss those at all or even think about them when I'm out in nature. It's almost like my mind go into hibernation or something lol. I did some pretty long treks in the Himalayas when I was backpacking across SE Asia and I never once missed city comfort. I walked for 1 week up the mountain, in the middle of nowhere by myself, just me, a rucksack with bare necessities and a sleeping bag  That's my best life experience so far. Seriously wish I could've stayed there forever lol.

Don't know if you've seen this one but here's a nice long documentary about a couple living alone in the middle of nowhere in Alaska. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0rZn8HFmQ

Just a practical question: How did you get food on your long trek? Did you bring money and bought it along, did you bring it all with your, or did you harvest from nature? Which aspects of the trek was most appealing to you?

As for intellectual input, a period without much of it is nice, but eventually, If you lived in a cabin in the woods, at one point, you would miss to read, communicate and learn.

Sure I had money with me, it wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I climbed up to 4400m but already at 2500 - 3000 m, you can barely grow anything and as you go up to 4000m there is practically no life around, no grass or animals, it's just rocks, dust, ice and wind  If it was possible to be self-sufficient up there, like live off the land, I would've lost myself in the wilderness and not come back lol. I actually overstayed my visa by more than a year  Those mountains are out of this world.

That sounds very interesting. What was the best thing about the mountains? Was it the freedom, the nature, the wind, the peace and quiet? What about water, did you get that from springs and rivers?

[ObscureBean]

Thing about intellectual input is that I'm not hungry for it at all. I play a LOT of chess and video games at home and I always have my earphones on listening to music whenever I go out but I don't miss those at all or even think about them when I'm out in nature. It's almost like my mind go into hibernation or something lol. I did some pretty long treks in the Himalayas when I was backpacking across SE Asia and I never once missed city comfort. I walked for 1 week up the mountain, in the middle of nowhere by myself, just me, a rucksack with bare necessities and a sleeping bag  That's my best life experience so far. Seriously wish I could've stayed there forever lol.

Don't know if you've seen this one but here's a nice long documentary about a couple living alone in the middle of nowhere in Alaska. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0rZn8HFmQ

Just a practical question: How did you get food on your long trek? Did you bring money and bought it along, did you bring it all with your, or did you harvest from nature? Which aspects of the trek was most appealing to you?

As for intellectual input, a period without much of it is nice, but eventually, If you lived in a cabin in the woods, at one point, you would miss to read, communicate and learn.

Sure I had money with me, it wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I climbed up to 4400m but already at 2500 - 3000 m, you can barely grow anything and as you go up to 4000m there is practically no life around, no grass or animals, it's just rocks, dust, ice and wind  If it was possible to be self-sufficient up there, like live off the land, I would've lost myself in the wilderness and not come back lol. I actually overstayed my visa by more than a year  Those mountains are out of this world.

That sounds very interesting. What was the best thing about the mountains? Was it the freedom, the nature, the wind, the peace and quiet? What about water, did you get that from springs and rivers?

Water is probably the only thing that you don't have to worry about, the ice melting at the top flows down the mountain, you'd still have to know where to look though. Worst case you still got plenty of ice around (provided you got a small burner). Up to a certain height, you can still find small isolated settlements with maybe 3-8 wooden huts but they are very rare. I had a map with me to help me locate certain things.
Best thing about the mountains? I don't think it is even possible to describe the feeling. The peace is pretty pretty intense, it felt like I was completely detached from humanity 

[Cryptowatch.com]

While exiting the system is a great idea, it's also smart to be realistic about it. As it demands a lot of skills, resources, work and money.

Anyone thinking about doing it should do lots of research, and take small steps in that regard. I find some other forums much more mature and discussing these matters in a more serious manner.

I think many people have a desire for independency and being self sufficient, if not 100%,  at least be prepared in the event of a blackout or freak weather. In the event of a break down in society, for example, if there is a sudden shortage of oil, infra structure will break down quite quickly (no new stock to stores), as stores run out of supplies. In crowded areas, it could get ugly, fast.

I'm a bit surprised this topic did not spur more serious discussion, as I'm pretty sure there are many of you that look into alternative ways of living than the established system provides.

[countryfree]

Also, you may consider exiting the system without physically leaving it. That's what I'm doing, only going to my desert escape a few days per year.

If you want to know more about settling down in the desert, you may look at Dubai. There were huge money involved, but this is a successful example.

[manselr]

There's no way to fully scape the system. You'll eventually need help of some sort (most likely medical) that is provided by the so called system, therefore as soon as you step in asking for help you are on there again.

[Cryptowatch.com]

There's no way to fully scape the system. You'll eventually need help of some sort (most likely medical) that is provided by the so called system, therefore as soon as you step in asking for help you are on there again.

Well, it's not a black and white issue - mostly it's about reducing the amount of red tape that needs to be dealt with.


Those of you interested in these issues might like to check out this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_State_of_Forvik

Also doing some googling on the case will bring up some interesting videos and interviews.

Basically, the guy doing this has claimed a very small island in Shetland, and then he also claims that Shetland is not a part of Scotland, and that no officials actually can thus prove that Shetland is a part of the UK legally speaking, quite an interesting case with a man litterally putting his life out there (he has had to be rescued many times at sea going in a dodgy boat in high seas without any security backups).

He's quite determined it seems. Here's his homepage:

http://www.forvik.com/

Perhaps even bitcoin would be a good fit for him.

He refuses to pay any taxes to the UK, and he's been arrested several times. Interesting chap. He is also minting his own coin, perhaps bitcoin would be something for him, I am sure many bitcoiners would share his views on "the system".

[Mikestang]

This "crazy system" already has a name, it's called "living off the grid" and people do it all over the world.  You don't hear about them, though, because get this, they are off the grid!